[confusedme]

I have had conflicting sources of Carbs that a Diabetic can consume, the UK Diabetes Association encourages eating pasta and wheat based products, avoiding white flour, it is still not high carbs?

Can any of the no carb, no sugar and no fat food bring about satiety ? For me. No. I get filled upon eating, but not feeling really that I have eaten ....

[genie86333]

Originally Posted by RedRD

I want people to understand that IT IS POSSIBLE to eat carbs. And it is a simple lifestyle for some to follow - counting carbs, backing the carbs up w/meds, following a moderate diet.

For SOME people...it is possible. That's why we say around here "your milage may vary." But, for example: the day before yesterday I ate a salad which had <15 g of carbs for the whole thing...and my bs 2 hours after was 187 (up from 133 before dinner.) That's pretty much my lowest-carb meal other than just meat & it raises my blood sugar higher than I want it. So...just because YOU can eat carbs doesn't mean anyone can. And yes, I am taking my meds as prescribed.

[RedRD]

Originally Posted by fgummett

Red... you asked the same question about my blood results in another thread... I obliged: anyone recognise this

My BMI is going to be much higher than yours... what do you expect when I have Metabolic Syndrome and you have Type 1

Please show me where I say to eliminate all carbs in any post? If low-carb means no-carb then what does low-fat mean?

I ask that you post any studies here rather than a PM... because I don't think that there are any studies which show high-fat leads to atherosclerosis, or that ketones or protein are damaging to healthy kidneys. These statements have been made for at least 30 years so you must believe there are studies to prove it.

Here is a study concerning kidneys and protein: The Impact of Protein Intake on Renal Function Decline in Women with Normal Renal Function or Mild Renal Insufficiency -- Knight et al. 138 (6): 460 -- Annals of Internal Medicine [my bold emphasis]
As for renal function, I have mine tested on a regular basis by my Endo - isn't that standard practice with Diabetes - if not, it should be.

Frank - I am looking for studies that apply to most people on this forum, not just specific populations. And I'm getting as many together as I can, and will give them to you via PM in addition to a post.

And yes, I do remember asking about your numbers (didn't remember what they were, sorry). I asked for your numbers after you suggested a low-carb diet to me. In that thread, I was, again, explaining that all did not have to follow a low-carb diet - not slamming it, just saying it is not the only (or best, in my opinion) option for everybody.

Frank, seems as though all I do w/you is defend my diet choice. You suggested that I change my diet - I don't recall suggesting the same for you. However, if I did it seems as though it would be for naught. If I had convinced you, say, 20-30 years ago, before you developed Metabolic Syndrome (preventable with weight loss), then who knows?

I believe I may be done arguing with you, Frank.

You will obviously believe what you wish.

I'll get you your studies, though.

Until then,

[RedRD]

Originally Posted by genie86333

For SOME people...it is possible. That's why we say around here "your milage may vary." But, for example: the day before yesterday I ate a salad which had <15 g of carbs for the whole thing...and my bs 2 hours after was 187 (up from 133 before dinner.) That's pretty much my lowest-carb meal other than just meat & it raises my blood sugar higher than I want it. So...just because YOU can eat carbs doesn't mean anyone can. And yes, I am taking my meds as prescribed.

And there is a study which has shown that a low-carb diet, leading to gluconeogenesis, can result in higher plasma glucose levels. This may account for your higher glucose level.

And I know things are different for everybody. And I seem to say that everytime I post anything about carbs or diet. That is why I don't suggest anything - just an explanation for what I choose to do.

Why are so many so freakin' threatened by those of us that eat 200g or more of carbs daily? Geez. We don't say you can or even should do it - but let us share how we can and do!

You'd think that I didn't pay a bit of attention to the carbs that I consume. And you know what? I do!! I avoid white breads, juice, don't eat starchy veggies (just don't like them). But I still take in 30-45 (and maybe even 60g at times!) grams of carbs at meals!!! And I'm healthy. I feel like I am under fire here - may be done w/this forum all together. Ridiculous.

[Evermont]

A lot of good stuff here people!

I was happy to see a couple of specific points raised. The caloric density of protein and fats being 2x carbs, and the balance between energy output vs caloric intake was part of what I hoped to see raised.

Another thought, perhaps I missed it here, is that age is a major risk factor. We are getting older.




I heard somewhere that anyone who lives long enough will eventually get diabetes. Not sure if that's true or not. Facts anyone? (I've also heard the same about Alzhiemers)

Regardless, if it's only a risk factor and not every persons ultimate fate, and we are on average living longer, which we are, then some part of the increase in diabetes statistics is assignable to increased life expectancy.

My hunch is that there are many factors all contributing to the increase. Diet is just one. Quantity and quality of carbs are both suspect within that realm.

It is all to easy to look for straightfoward explanations for excrutiatingly complex things which we find ourselves fighting. We need the conveniently simple explanations so that a trip to the grocery store doesn't become a congressional inquisition. We need to decide what's for lunch today and there's no time for a longitudinal study, there's barely time to eat it. You take what's available, subtract what you hate, subtract what you can't afford, subtract the things you think might be bad for you for any of dozens of reasons... how many choices remain?

Buddy7, carbs are part of the story. We still have much to learn about these things and inspite of the ever present problem of lunch, we must choose. It's better to keep looking for answers - but in a way, you have to be OK with not having all the answers yet.

I had salad for lunch today. Mostly carbs, some good protein and some good fat. Low GI made lower with fat and acid (EVOO and red wine vinegar). No easy way to measure the amounts - I eye-balled it. My taste buds and meter agree that it was good.

[Rad Warrier]

Originally Posted by RedRD

Why are so many so freakin' threatened by those of us that eat 200g or more of carbs daily? Geez. We don't say you can or even should do it - but let us share how we can and do!

You'd think that I didn't pay a bit of attention to the carbs that I consume. And you know what? I do!! I avoid white breads, juice, don't eat starchy veggies (just don't like them). But I still take in 30-45 (and maybe even 60g at times!) grams of carbs at meals!!! And I'm healthy. I feel like I am under fire here - may be done w/this forum all together. Ridiculous.

"I feel like I am under fire here - may be done w/this forum all together. Ridiculous."
RedRD, please do not feel so. I don't believe you are under fire here. It may be that some members are stating their point of view a bit more emphatically. Or perhaps passionately. Actually I enjoy a little passion in debates - the debate becomes much more informative that way. Only it should not degenerate into ab hominem attacks and abusive language. That hasn't happened so far and I am sure it will not happen.

I think my intake of carbohydrates may be more than yours. And (horror of horrors ) I eat a good amount of rice, and once a while enjoy sugary treats. And like you, I remain more or less healthy. I test my blood quite frequently to ensure that my 'carb indulgence' does not result in blood glucose spikes or sustained elevated levels. My only weapons in the fight against diabetes are metformin, 750g total a day, and exercise. But I realize that all diabetics are not like me. I am of the view that diabetics should experiment with a wide variety of food. Then test, test and test. And find out what foods suit them. And try to eat as varied a diet as is possible for them.

Regards,
Rad

[RedRD]

I'm with you Rad - rice, sugary treats, and all!!

And I also agree (and have said multiple times - enough that I believe I shouldn't have to repeatedly do so) that what works for one will not as easily work for all - or even most!!! I stand by my belief that extreme diets are not good long-term, but respect others that choose to follow a diet which makes them feel as good and as healthy as they can. Moderation and variety are what work for me, also.

I enjoy a good debate myself, but am growing weary of defending my practice - not just in this thread, but in SEVERAL others.

Thanks!

[mazea]

Humans have historically had high fat/high carbohydrate diets. There was a book called the clash of civilisations( Really interesting read if you can get around it) which outlined some of the history of farming. I also have an ag degree so I was quite interested in the agricultural history in this book
But apparently the first grain crops were produced in Egypt in a fertile area on the river called the fertile crescent. The first crops were wheat oats ect. When the first crops were produced humans started moving out of of tribes and moved into communties. Other places in the world a similar thing happened. European communites may have taken some of the technology from Africa and started producing crops. Some In Preamercian america, American Indians down near the mexican border started producing maize crops, native Paupa New Guineans started producing Taro. Asiatic countries started mass producing rice.
On the other side of the earth in Australia, aboriginies continued to live off the land and did not get around to producing carbohydrate crops. The only commercial carbohydrate crop that has ever come out of Australia is Macadaemia nuts. It is believed that not producing crops is why the aboriginals remained unchanged in terms of advancement and technology. Just thought that might interest ya.

[Rad Warrier]

Originally Posted by RedRD

I'm with you Rad - rice, sugary treats, and all!!

And I also agree (and have said multiple times - enough that I believe I shouldn't have to repeatedly do so) that what works for one will not as easily work for all - or even most!!! I stand by my belief that extreme diets are not good long-term, but respect others that choose to follow a diet which makes them feel as good and as healthy as they can. Moderation and variety are what work for me, also.

I enjoy a good debate myself, but am growing weary of defending my practice - not just in this thread, but in SEVERAL others.

Thanks!

I find that debates take place at different levels - at one level is the spirit of enquiry and a healthy scientific attitude, at another level are rigidly held beliefs, and there are of course various other levels in between these two. Sometimes debates become just one sided I am reminded of my two friends belonging to two different religions. One friend fervently tries to convince me that I will burn in eternal fire in the life hereafter if I don't accept his lord and convert to his religion And then there is the other one who harps on consequences that might occur more 'here' than 'hereafter' if I do not choose to accept his religion. He dreams of the golden dawn when the 'holy war' will have decapitated all those who remain adamant 'non-believers'. I may fail in that golden dawn to find my head in its usual place . I do not debate with these two friends - the 'debate' remains one sided

Regards,
Rad

[notme]

Very well said Rad. Thank you.

[HelenM]

Originally Posted by fgummett

Helen... I am going to now try and read the full article but the abstract I found from your link does not even mention fibre..? Just a comparison of red meat plus processed meat, compared to fish.

Meat, Fish, and Colorectal Cancer Risk: The European Prospective Investigation into Cancer and Nutrition -- Norat et al. 97 (12): 906 -- JNCI Journal of the National Cancer Institute

I also read with interest this correspondence regarding the above article: Re: Meat, Fish, and Colorectal Cancer Risk: The European Prospective Investigation into Cancer and Nutrition -- Gonder and Worm 97 (23): 1788 -- JNCI Journal of the National Cancer Institute

sorry, the reference and quote came directly from this page,
EPIC-Norfolk: Key Findings
I accidently missed out the second citation. Bingham SA et al. Dietary fibre in food and protection against colorectal cancer in the European Prospective Investigation into Cancer and Nutrition (EPIC): an observational study. Lancet 2003;361:1496-501

[fgummett]

Thanks Helen... I will read that one.

---

You know, I do believe that "what works for me may not work for others", "YMMV", "let's all just get along" etc... and I do hear folks saying that here with one breath... but in the next breath using terms like "high-fat is unhealthy", "avoid extreme diets", "ketones and protein will damage your Kidneys" etc... none of which has any proof forthcoming. So which is it folks?

[RedRD]

Originally Posted by fgummett

Thanks Helen... I will read that one.

---

You know, I do believe that "what works for me may not work for others", "YMMV", "let's all just get along" etc... and I do hear folks saying that here with one breath... but in the next breath using terms like "high-fat is unhealthy", "avoid extreme diets", "ketones and protein will damage your Kidneys" etc... none of which has any proof forthcoming. So which is it folks?

Give me a break, Frank. Get over it. High-fat diets are generally healthy. Stop the game. There is probably not one single factor in anbody's situation, here. But a common factor in many diseases? Obesity. Not the only factor, granted, but a very common one. And a very common way that one becomes obese? Caloric intake exceeding one's needs. Not the only way, but a common one. And yes, there are studies and plenty of evidence that proves that fact. I'm sure if you WANTED TO, then you could find them. I have researched some of your past threads - I'm sorry that you seem to be so caught up in "proving" what you want to, and having a scientific explanation for your situation, that you don't seem to have time for anything else. Maybe if we spent have the time exercising as we do on our computers, then we would weigh less and need less insulin. But wait!! Don't bother - I don't know that there is a study that shows that more activity = weight loss = less insulin need. Oh, wait!! I have experienced that. Just as I have experienced more activity + fewer calories = weight loss and better control. But, I am not a scientific study. Just a person living it.

[Rad Warrier]

Originally Posted by notme

Very well said Rad. Thank you.

You are welcome, Nancy.

Regards,
Rad

[RedRD]

Originally Posted by RedRD

...High-fat diets are generally healthy...

Sorry - should've read UNhealthy. This does exclude a diet higher in poly- & monounsat-fats.