[RedRD]

Originally Posted by fgummett

On the "fats" question, In other words... if we eat good-quality, real, whole foods there is no need to over-think it.

BTW trans-fats do exist naturally in small amounts, but I have always avoided processed/manufactured "foods" like margarine anyway.

So far as I understand, there is no true scientific study proving the theory that links saturated fat with atherosclerosis/cardio-vascular disease.

Are there any true scientific studies? Maybe the ones that you want to deem true...

There are plenty of studies that link saturated fats to CAD, CVD, various types of cancer, and diabetes. I found them with the New England Journal of Medicine, Mayo Clinic, American Heart Association, among others, but do not wish to pay for a subscription to prove it to you. I'm sure all of the authors are players in this conspiracy to push carbs and withhold fats, though.

I think that you are so threatened by those of us who choose to not eat as you do, YOU over-think it.

If I remember correctly, Frank, your first post for me was suggesting a low-carb diet (and you weren't even asked for a suggestion!). And that was following my post with a simple explanation of carbs-proteins-fats, explaining why I felt it unnecessary for EVERYBODY to follow a low-carb plan (in response to a post asking for explanations and opinions). Don't worry about reposting it, I know where to find it.

I have never forced my regimen on anyone. Why must you attack a plan that works for some, while we are not doing so?

[yannah]

I dunno, but I am pretty passionate about low carb. It really worked for me. then when I look at dr's, ADA, general media etc.. I think "stop it!!!! We don't need carbs to live!! I am diabetic and spike if I have a half cup of oatmeal people!"
and I just feel passionate about getting my experience out there, because it is a choice, not often offered, but often works. I think Frank is just very passionate in getting that info out. He has really helped me alot. maybe not everyone, but I thank God he did help me out when I was struggling in the beginning.

I am lucky, both my PCP and endo are fine with my diet. My PCP is even letting me work on my own cholesterol and agrees low carb could bring it down. My endo, I think he is excited about it and anxious to see how I do. Although he did say i could probably lighten up a bit.

[LCD]

Originally Posted by yannah

I am pretty passionate about low carb. It really worked for me. works. I think Frank is just very passionate in getting that info out. He has really helped me alot. maybe not everyone, but I thank God he did help me out when I was struggling in the beginning.
.

Time to put out the white flag - Lets just agree that it's okay to have different points of view.

I appreciate both views on the subject. Neither one of you are going to change your opinion - so just keep doing what works best for you.

I have found what works for me and I will continue.

oops - this should of been posted in the Low Carb Discussion thread , (otherwise known as World War III)

[RedRD]

Originally Posted by LCD

Time to put out the white flag - Lets just agree that it's okay to have different points of view.

I appreciate both views on the subject. Neither one of you are going to change your opinion - so just keep doing what works best for you.

I have found what works for me and I will continue.

Amen.

And in my own defense, I have not asked the low-carbers for studies proving that it is working for them. They can prove it with their numbers. Doesn't take a study. While it would probably work for alot (is that an okay way to put it, or can I say "many," wouldn't dare say "most"), it would/does not work for all and is not the only option for all. And some (many, most, blah blah) just don't want to do low-carb. I like carbs.

Maybe we can look for a study that proves that a diet high in saturated fats, trans-fats, etc. is healthy...

[fgummett]

Originally Posted by RedRD

Are there any true scientific studies? Maybe the ones that you want to deem true...

There are plenty of studies that link saturated fats to CAD, CVD, various types of cancer, and diabetes. I found them with the New England Journal of Medicine, Mayo Clinic, American Heart Association, among others, but do not wish to pay for a subscription to prove it to you. I'm sure all of the authors are players in this conspiracy to push carbs and withhold fats, though.

I know there are many "experts" who say that high-fat is related to CVD, and many studies predicated on the "sure knowledge" that it is true... and the media repeats it ad nauseam... BUT as I said before that does not make it a fact.

Originally Posted by RedRD

I think that you are so threatened by those of us who choose to not eat as you do, YOU over-think it. ...
I have never forced my regimen on anyone. Why must you attack a plan that works for some, while we are not doing so?

Please show me where am I attacking a plan that works for some? I am promoting low-carb and, as I keep saying, it is not for everyone. People have asked for advice on weight-loss, BG control or improving lipids... I try to help them.

I am confident in my choices and do not feel threatened in the least... if you feel attacked that is your issue not mine.

[fgummett]

Originally Posted by RedRD

Amen.

And in my own defense, I have not asked the low-carbers for studies proving that it is working for them. They can prove it with their numbers. Doesn't take a study. While it would probably work for alot (is that an okay way to put it, or can I say "many," wouldn't dare say "most"), it would/does not work for all and is not the only option for all. And some (many, most, blah blah) just don't want to do low-carb. I like carbs.

Maybe we can look for a study that proves that a diet high in saturated fats, trans-fats, etc. is healthy...

The big difference is what we are told by the media, food industry and health experts... what are the guidelines that you use as a Registered Dietitian? I am making an educated assumption but I understand that they are predicated on theories such as high-fat causing CVD, high-protein causing renal damage etc... as you have said here yourself. From my reading I do not believe that those theories are correct, so I have asked you to "put your money where your mouth is" and provide some proof of the same guidelines to which many/most of us here have been subjected to at some time or other. Would you just take the word of the car-salesman that the car was safe or would you do some further research.

[RedRD]

Originally Posted by fgummett

The big difference is what we are told by the media, food industry and health experts... what are the guidelines that you use as a Registered Dietitian? I am making an educated assumption but I understand that they are predicated on theories such as high-fat causing CVD, high-protein causing renal damage etc... as you have said here yourself. From my reading I do not believe that those theories are correct, so I have asked you to "put your money where your mouth is" and provide some proof of the same guidelines to which many/most of us here have been subjected to at some time or other. Would you just take the word of the car-salesman that the car was safe or would you do some further research.

Maybe I feel attacked because every freakin' time I post something not directed or intended for you, you ATTACK it, try to tear it apart, say it isn't fact, ask for studies on it, etc.

And your EDUCATED ASSUMPTION is wrong. I use my own EXPERIENCE, as a diabetic first and foremost, but also as an RD, as my guidelines. And you know what? It works. My patients are relieved to meet somebody that considers not only their physical health, but also their psychological health in formulating (with their guidance) a plan that WORKS FOR THEM!!! Am I going to first suggest a low-carb? No. Low-fat? No. If my first suggestion doesn't work, then we'll find something that does. And, unlike you (supposedly), many (most, whatever) people cannot be compliant with any type of "plan" - no matter the makeup.

And the things that I say are proven by MY EXPERIENCE - not yours. My assumptions are also educated, and I don't say that certain things happen all the time nor in every case.

And when I see that there are potential threats that come from something, then I'm going to avoid it - and NOT recommend it. I won't tell somebody NOT to do it, but I won't recommend it, either.

I'm not sure that there is a scientific study on jumping off bridges, running down a busy stretch of interstate, laying down on railroad tracks - but you know what? All of those things have resulted in bad things, so I'm not gonna chance it.

And NO, I'm not comparing those things to any diets - just saying, while I wouldn't believe everything (or even most of what) a car salesman tells me, I'm not going to require a TRUE SCIENTIFIC STUDY to use my own educated judgement and experience to decide what I will do for myself, and then share that experience with others. AS LONG AS THEY ASK FOR IT.

[fgummett]

So would you ever recommend a low-carb plan?

As for the rest, you have said that high-fat is unhealthy, ketones are a "not-so-good" byproduct, high-protein causes renal damage... is that also based on your experience?

[RedRD]

Originally Posted by fgummett

So would you ever recommend a low-carb plan?

As for the rest, you have said that high-fat is unhealthy, ketones are a dangerous by-product, high-protein cause renal damage... is that based on your experience?

Depends on how many carbs were included. I would have to break down calorie levels specific for a patient, and then look at where everything was coming from. I would also look at medications and adjustments in r/t previous diet attempts.

And yes, those were based on my experience as I have already said. Can remember specific cases on all of those...

[buddy7]

Want to take a few minutes to thank all participants in the debate The Carbohydrates Confusion, found the discussion grossly civil intensely constructive and extremely educational, I say, I've learnt quite a lot from the discussion, thoroughly enjoyed all aspects. You guys been, absolutely great.

Thank you again.

Frank! if you're still around the discussion, just want to say, I've bought that book, The Diet Delusion by Gary Taubes
Thank you.

[fgummett]

Originally Posted by buddy7

Frank! if you're still around the discussion, just want to say, I've bought that book, The Diet Delusion by Gary Taubes. Thank you.

You are welcome. Where would I go?

I'll warn you now that the book is a bit of a slog (for me anyway)... I'm reading it again for the third time just now -- too much to take in one go. I'm sure it is not perfect but it opened my eyes and started me questioning so many assumptions that are based on poor science.

I always find these discussions enlightening although I'm glad I now have a normal BP to work with

[conguitos]

Originally Posted by REDLAN

we did???

when was this???

The staple diet for most people in the west for the last god knows how long has been cereals. In medieval times in Europe the staple for the vast majority of people was bread.

For 100'000s of years the human organism had a low carb diet, bread is quite new and mass consumption of cereals began with agriculture, 7'000 to 6'000 BCE.

But the main problem is exercise, we are way to sendentary.

The typical couch potato, the more potato the more couch. Carbs make anyone sleepy and letargic.

Carb = no good, not natural

IMHO