[Cyborg]

What are the main differences between the Bernstein "diet" and the Atkins diet? Do they both involve a constant state of ketosis?

[JediSkipdogg]

I don't really think Bernstein's method is a diet since the purpose for most people isn't to lose weight. The purpose is to just avoid carbs that cause the BG to rise. You still get calories and some carbs so you aren't in constant ketosis. Whereas Atkins is actually a diet where you are to avoid as many carbs and calories as possible to lose weight.

[Cyborg]

I don't remember Atkins advocating control of calories, just carbs. If fact, most people get the impression that on an Atkins diet, you can eat as much protein/fat that you want to become satiated.

Now that I've started the Bernstein CDs, I want to learn as much as possible about his approach. I'm definitely willing to give it a try and see what kind of results I get.

Being a type 1 on Atkins was just too difficult...

[JediSkipdogg]

Now that you mentioned the fat part that's true. I was going to say carbs = calories. But fat calories = twice as many calories as carbs. I guess on the Atkins diet they just want as few carbs as possible so that your body does go into ketosis and the foods you eat happen to have energy in another method.

[karen]

I read Bernstein's book and he stays away from almost all carbs including fruit, tomatoes, etc.

I found it too strict and don't think I could follow it, but I truly believe in what he is promoting.

He can pretty much have constant bgs with eating and exercise, because his boluses are so low and the amount of background insulin he needs is way low as well.

He believes in constant bgs like a non-diabetic with no spikes after food or lows from exercise.

I truly believe in his methods and his philosophy but I could not be that strict.

I just recieved an email today inviting me to his live teleseminar tomorrow. If you want the phone number and pin number you can have it, as I will not be attending.

Let me know. Here is the email I recieved.

Thank you for registering for the teleseminar with Richard Bernstein, M.D. on Tuesday Feb. 27th at 7:00 Central Time. We look forward to an informationpacked hour answering your most pressing questions about diabetes.
The following are the details you will need to access the Teleseminar.
Simply call the dial in number below and punch in your pin code to jointhe call.


Karen

P.S.: He is not fond of pumping

[BlueSky]

Originally Posted by Cyborg

What are the main differences between the Bernstein "diet" and the Atkins diet? Do they both involve a constant state of ketosis?

Both the Atkins and Bernstein approaches are based on the same principle - switching from carbohydrate to fat as the main source of energy. And being in ketosis is evidence that this is happening. But I don't think testing positive for ketones is a neccessary condition.

A cornerstone of the Bernstein method is limiting carbohydrate to 30 grams a day. Achieving his ideal of "normal blood sugars" is just about impossible without doing that. The Atkins diet quickly puts the body into ketosis by limiting carbohydrate to 20 grams a day during the induction period. Carbs are then gradually increased to 40-60 grams a day.

An Atkins book about managing diabetee was brought out, The Atkins Diabetes Revolution. Here is a review of it
The Atkins Diet for Type 2 Diabetes

[soso]

I did<30g carb for more than 2 yrs and never had more than trace ketones in the many times I tested..also never really lost weight on it, though I wasn't overweight to start and true enough, never gained any either, despite some serious fat eating. A lot of people on his forum do eat some of the no no veggies (such as toms) without too much trouble, it's not SUCH a bad diet in terms of variety providing you can eat nuts...there are some spanking good recipes on the forum too.... I find I have not changed my diet all that dramatically since having insulin and doubling my carbs..if I were to keep on his woe though I would be able to do it on 3 units of novorapid per day..gotta love that.
ss

[DeusXM]

He believes in constant bgs like a non-diabetic with no spikes after food or lows from exercise.

And of course this is the major flaw in his logic. Non-diabetics have spikes after eating too. When he first set out his diet plan we didn't have insulins that mimic the action of the bolus insulin release from the pancreas and so having no spikes at all was the best option. Now that we can reduce the duration and severity of BG spikes (as non-diabetics can), there's scope to move away from such a restrictive lifestyle.

In fact (although I'm not going to bother trying to start an argument here), the Bernstein plan isn't a lifestyle plan, it's just an existence plan.

[REDLAN]

I don't know about the difference between the 2 diets, however the atkins diet works because you eat less calories on it...

they did a study (I believe it was sweden/norway), where they set up a shop, where all the foods were carefully measured, so the exact calorie content of the food was recorded. The subjects then were required to buy all their food from the shop. The subjects were divided up into various groups -

the group that ate a restricted carb diet (it was not as extreme as the atkins), actually ate fewer calories than the other groups.

one anomalie came out of the study was the group that ate nuts - despite an apparently high calorie intake they actually lost weight...

...the reason they concluded was that nuts are an unprocessed food, so that it is very hard for your body to extract all the nutrients from it - ergo you may eat a load of nuts, but you aren't getting the calories. This also means that for those promoting the health benefits of the nutrients in nuts, is not as good as it would seem on paper.

[moorejames]

Originally Posted by REDLAN

I don't know about the difference between the 2 diets, however the atkins diet works because you eat less calories on it...

Anyone think the way we count calories is completely flawed?

The current definition of a calorie comes from burning food and seeing how much heat it gives off.

What's that got to do with the human metabolism?

Seems to me, the reason we count calories is to get an indication of a food's fuel source capacity.

Given that reason for calculating a food's "calories" wouldn't it make more sense to define a food's fuel source capability by it's ability to convert to glucose in the human body?

Looked at that way, carbs would have a much higher "calorie" content than fats and protein.

Cars burn fuel. Humans convert it through chemical processes using enzymes and hormones and insulin.

I think the whole concept of calories is flawed. People aren't cars.

(and yeah, I know that's what the glycemic index is all about, but we still focus on the heat generating capability of burning food: calories)

[Doug]

Originally Posted by moorejames

Anyone think the way we count calories is completely flawed?

The current definition of a calorie comes from burning food and seeing how much heat it gives off.

What's that got to do with the human metabolism?

Seems to me, the reason we count calories is to get an indication of a food's fuel source capacity.

Given that reason for calculating a food's "calories" wouldn't it make more sense to define a food's fuel source capability by it's ability to convert to glucose in the human body?

Looked at that way, carbs would have a much higher "calorie" content than fats and protein.

Cars burn fuel. Humans convert it through chemical processes using enzymes and hormones and insulin.

I think the whole concept of calories is flawed. People aren't cars.

(and yeah, I know that's what the glycemic index is all about, but we still focus on the heat generating capability of burning food: calories)

James its just how they measure the energy in food by burning it
The body burns it as well just using a different means. - Its simply a unit of measure - dont get hung up on the how

Originally Posted by DeusXM

And of course this is the major flaw in his logic. Non-diabetics have spikes after eating too. When he first set out his diet plan we didn't have insulins that mimic the action of the bolus insulin release from the pancreas and so having no spikes at all was the best option. Now that we can reduce the duration and severity of BG spikes (as non-diabetics can), there's scope to move away from such a restrictive lifestyle.

In fact (although I'm not going to bother trying to start an argument here), the Bernstein plan isn't a lifestyle plan, it's just an existence plan.

I agree - If you read some of the diabetes history books Bernstein's diet is very similar to the diet they used before insulin was invented - merely a sustenance diet - designed to keep you alive at all costs.

Its like the old joke .. A guy asks his Dr if he will live to be 80 - the Dr asks a bunch of questions like
"Do you spend a lot of time in the sun, like playing golf, sailing, hiking,"
"Do you smoke tobacco, or drink beer or wine?"
"Do you gamble, drive fast cars, or have a lot of sex?"
The answer to all the questions is "No, I don't do any of those things."
He looked at me and said, "Then why do you want to live to be 80?"

[Dewey]

Originally Posted by Doug

Its like the old joke .. A guy asks his Dr if he will live to be 80 - the Dr asks a bunch of questions like
"Do you spend a lot of time in the sun, like playing golf, sailing, hiking,"
"Do you smoke tobacco, or drink beer or wine?"
"Do you gamble, drive fast cars, or have a lot of sex?"
The answer to all the questions is "No, I don't do any of those things."
He looked at me and said, "Then why do you want to live to be 80?"

LOL! I love that! Good one, Doug!

I've done 'low carb,' but not in the way that's advocated by B. I seemed to do quite well on sugar levels and weight loss, so was pleased with those results.

I've not done the Atkins diet, so cannot really comment on it. I had friends who were on it and seemed to do ok, but they didn't really seem to lose weight.

[soso]

Yes, I've had a lot of gastro intestinal issues over the last few years AND been doing low carb at the same time, so for some periods of time I have eaten very small low carb meals of say meat and broccoli and I have NEVER been able to have a meal where there was NO spike.. Bernstien cearly states that bg should stay the same at all times, but asking th question on his forum, got the same answer from the responders...so I don't know where he gets that idea from..
One really good thing about his plan is that it trains one away from high carb foods very effectively.. I can eatsmall amounts of them now and not feel I must have more..in fact I have very good won't power as a result of that diet, but have to say, I am glad to be able to have more variety now. I do think that for people who have a problem with control (bg and self) it is an excellent thing to do on both counts...just maybe not forever....
ss

[Cyborg]

Originally Posted by REDLAN

I don't know about the difference between the 2 diets, however the atkins diet works because you eat less calories on it...

The permise behind the Atkins Diet is not reducing calorie intake, but rather restricting carb intake.

Originally Posted by REDLAN

one anomalie came out of the study was the group that ate nuts - despite an apparently high calorie intake they actually lost weight...

...the reason they concluded was that nuts are an unprocessed food, so that it is very hard for your body to extract all the nutrients from it - ergo you may eat a load of nuts, but you aren't getting the calories. This also means that for those promoting the health benefits of the nutrients in nuts, is not as good as it would seem on paper.

This doesn't seem right to me. Nuts are loaded in calories.

[JediSkipdogg]

Originally Posted by Cyborg

The permise behind the Atkins Diet is not reducing calorie intake, but rather restricting carb intake.

I started thinking of this more....

Atkins says less carbs. THerefore you are eating less carb calories. Well, since you are eating less carbs your body has to burn fat for energy. You may be ingesting for fat products due to less carbs and you may be eating more calories, but you are burning your fat for energy. The body process of burning fat stored calories may be greater than the intake of fat calories. So in a sense, you are burning more calories on that Atkins diet than you take in.