Up & coming Accu-chek pump....Possible issues.

[trifona]

One potential reason to avoid the Disetronic/Accu-Chek Spirit:

On both the H-TronPlus & D-TronPlus pumps, one of the error codes on the back of the pump is "Technical Inspection Due". After 2 years of use for each pump you are (or were) supposed to send the pump back to Disetronic for inspection & resetting of this timer. Well Disetronic just sent me a new pump for warranty replacement (my warranty expires in 10 days). On the back of the pump and included in a letter in the package was a notice that they changed the wording from "Technical Inspection Due" to "End of Use Time" on the back of the pump. "End of Use Time"????? No other explanation was given in the notice, just the change of wording. I thought this new wording was quite odd so I called Technical Support last night which confirmed that when this alarm triggers they will NOT reset the timer!!! Which means that if this policy also extends to the Accu-Chek Spirit, you are not buying a pump with a 4 year warranty, but a pump with only a 4 year life span!!!

Sure its nice to upgrade to a new pump every 4 years, but what if you lose your insurance? Even if your pump is physically OK they will force you to upgrade? He said they have NOT done any technical inspections in quite a few years (probably since the FDA Ban). My guess is that they can't inspect it for safety in light of the recalls and want to get the old pumps off the market to protect them from a liability standpoint and also to force people to buy a new pump every 4 years. When I asked him "WHY would you force me to buy a new pump when the timer on my D-Tron goes off?" His response was - "Don't you want newer technology?" I told him sure, we all do, but that I felt that my DtronPlus could do everything that the Spirit can. His response was that the Spirit holds 315 units of insulin and that the D-Tron only holds 300! The Spirit does 6million checks a day to make sure it's working within spec. I asked, doesnt the D-tron processor check itself throughout the day? He said "Not 6 million times!"

OMG I couldnt believe where this was going.

His remaining arguments were that the Spirit has 4 basal profiles, instead of two, and one additional bolus profile.

Personally I didnt care, considering that I had already bought the Minimed 722 yesterday, I didnt call them to have a pump wars debate, just clarification on their letter and subsequently why they just letting people's pumps die and not resetting them after their timer runs down - My plan was to always keep my Disetronic pumps as backups.

Personally I think they are being VERY shady, especially if this is indeed extended to the Spirit pump. Think of it this way...sure it's nice if your insurance will pay for a nice new pump every 4 years. What happens if for whatever reason you dont have insurance 4 years from now that will pay for a new one and the pump timer on your Spirit just went off? YOU ARE SCREWED! There may not be anything wrong with your pump, but Disetronic says that you cant use it anymore. I would rather have an old reliable that could work for 10 years with no bells and whistles rather than some new (yet apparently not so slick) pump that shuts itself down after 4 years, guaranteed never to work again. Perhaps there is an out clause in the case of the Spirit that allows them to reset the timer. Even so, is their word worth anything considering that they have retroactively decided not to reset the timers on pumps bought and paid for years ago?

It is hard to accept how far our old friend Disetronic has fallen. The way I see things, the Disetronic I knew and loved died when Roche laid off everybody in Minnesota, and morphed it into a new company with new people using the Disetronic name in Illinois. So sad.

Luckily all 4 of my Disetronic pump "back-ups" are warranty replacements with a full 2 years worth of time on them.

[JasonJayhawk]

Trifona,

You are correct about the Spirit's pre-programmed death.

I was looking at the Spirit, and discovered in the manual that it STOPS working once the timer goes off. It cannot be reset by the end-user. This means you are buying the "licensed rights" to use the pump for four years. I hope people discover this now, or else we'll hear complaints about it in four years from unknowing victims. This may end up alienating the Accu-chek/Disetronic company (I like how they slapped the Accu-chek name on it, as it sounds better than Disetronic after the recall issue).

I don't know if you could fool the device by changing the date back a year, or if it's based on its "total in-use time" clock, which could not be altered.

[Funnygrl]

Trifona,

You are correct about the Spirit's pre-programmed death.

I was looking at the Spirit, and discovered in the manual that it STOPS working once the timer goes off. It cannot be reset by the end-user. This means you are buying the "licensed rights" to use the pump for four years. I hope people discover this now, or else we'll hear complaints about it in four years from unknowing victims. This may end up alienating the Accu-chek/Disetronic company (I like how they slapped the Accu-chek name on it, as it sounds better than Disetronic after the recall issue).

I don't know if you could fool the device by changing the date back a year, or if it's based on its "total in-use time" clock, which could not be altered.
I believe it's based on hours in use.

[trifona]

I believe it's based on hours in use.

That is correct...the time in a Disetronic pump runs down as long as there is a battery installed.

[JediSkipdogg]

I think I may call to ask for a SPirit rep and see what they have to say on this in my area. I love a good argument.

[melissata]

The google chart and the diabetes mall both say that the warranty on the Spirit is 6 years. The pump is only waterproof for 1 hour. We found that out the hard way with the Dtron. Totally forgot and the pump went crazy. Lucky they give you two, and it was fine after it dried out inside.

I am leaning towards the Cozmo as my daughters next pump. It was the one that I wanted for her first, but insurance wouldn't go along because it was too new. I am wondering if the insulin duration can be set to 1/2 hour or just one hour? She now has the Paradigm and it is only able to be set at full hours. Her duration is more than 2, but less than 3, so I would like to be able to set it at 2 1/2 hours. I know that one of them does this, but it may be the Animas. I also like the fact that you can set the bolus speed. I didn't like how quickly the bolus was delivered with the Dtron, and prefer the slowness of the Paradigm. I also like to be able to add a regular bolus to an ongoing extended bolus, but it isn't clear if you can do this with the Cozmo?

[Dewey]

I moved the posts & gave this thread its own title, because the topic of the other thread is to make lists of pros/cons of each pump that you all have personally had experience with. You all are more than welcome to make your own lists about the pumps you've used/worked with.

I think I may call to ask for a SPirit rep and see what they have to say on this in my area. I love a good argument.
LMAO, Don't I know it! (J/k!) :rofl:

[notme]

That would definitely be a deal breaker for me. I don't want a shelf life on my pump. Heck....my pancreas did that already and I wasn't happy.

[Funnygrl]

I am leaning towards the Cozmo as my daughters next pump.
Good choice.
I am wondering if the insulin duration can be set to 1/2 hour or just one hour? She now has the Paradigm and it is only able to be set at full hours. Her duration is more than 2, but less than 3, so I would like to be able to set it at 2 1/2 hours. I know that one of them does this, but it may be the Animas.
Duration of insulin action can be set from 2 hours through 8 hours in 15 minute increments.
I also like to be able to add a regular bolus to an ongoing extended bolus, but it isn't clear if you can do this with the Cozmo?
You can. I do this fairly regularly if I go out to eat...combo bolus for the meal, then later a standard bolus for desert.

[trifona]

The google chart and the diabetes mall both say that the warranty on the Spirit is 6 years.


If so, then they're wrong, the warranty is only 4 years:

Disetronic USA - Warranty Page (http://www.disetronicusa.com/warranty_30.htm)

[Dewey]

I'm very interested to know if there's a way to disable that stupid timer by either hardware or software....

I think it's awful that they have that, personally. :(

[trifona]

Trifona,

You are correct about the Spirit's pre-programmed death.

I was looking at the Spirit, and discovered in the manual that it STOPS working once the timer goes off. It cannot be reset by the end-user. This means you are buying the "licensed rights" to use the pump for four years. I hope people discover this now, or else we'll hear complaints about it in four years from unknowing victims. This may end up alienating the Accu-chek/Disetronic company (I like how they slapped the Accu-chek name on it, as it sounds better than Disetronic after the recall issue).

I don't know if you could fool the device by changing the date back a year, or if it's based on its "total in-use time" clock, which could not be altered.

Jason,

What doesn't make sense is that on the top of page 159 of the Spirit Reference manual, it states:

"Contact Pump Support @ 1-800-688-4578 to discuss your options for further use of the Accu-Chek Spirit insulin pump"

When I called Pump support last night, I was told that I had no options for further use of my current pumps once I had an E5. First he thought I wanted a free inspection (He bagan babbling something about how could they make a profit doing so or some similar nonsense). Personally, I don't think its unreasonable to pay a nominal amount for a safety inspection and reset the timer on a pump if someone wishes to continue using it. Then he wouldn't get off his tangent as to why I wouldn't want a better more advanced pump.

So either:

A) The person in pump support misrepresented what options I and everyone else with an H-TRON or D-TRON have for further use of these pumps.

B) Roche/Accu Chek/Disetronic have different E5 policies for the Spirit vs the H-TRON & D-TRON pumps. If this is the case and it is a safety issue, why weren't these pumps required to be sent back as opposed to the soft recall they conducted? And why wasn't this made more clear as opposed to the low key notification that the wording of the E5 & A5 was changing? I dont recall any important communications about this being sent out by the company.

C) The manual is alluding to options that dont exist for Spirit users. Or you have to trust them not to change their tune 4 years after you buy their pump.

Can someone else with an old Disetronic call pump support to see what kind of answer they get?

[melissata]

Good choice.

Duration of insulin action can be set from 2 hours through 8 hours in 15 minute increments.

You can. I do this fairly regularly if I go out to eat...combo bolus for the meal, then later a standard bolus for desert.

Thanks for that info! It is looking more and more like the Cozmo will be her next pump. I was steering clear of them because of someone on another board having a son with lots of problems. They stuck with it anyway, and discovered after he grew and stopped dropping it on the floor so much that it was fine. He went through many pumps in the first couple of years, but loved it so much that he wouldn't make the switch.

As far as the Spirit goes, they are doomed to never regain the market in this country with that kind of nonsence! People are too unsure of their jobs and health insurance these days to get a pump with an expiration date. I hope the word gets out, because they certainly won't be warning people. The warnings about their pump problems downplayed the seriousness, but my insurance rep got the real facts. That is why they let everyone change. That was a pretty big deal because this pump was only a couple of months old. They didn't know if they were going to get anything back from Disetronic for the pumps, but still payed for new ones for all of their customers. With all of the great choices out there, I wouldn't even consider the Spirit. They sent me the info, because 3 years later still think we are using their pump!

[trifona]

I called Disetronic Pump support this afternoon and spoke to a 2nd agent.

It is confirmed, they will NOT reset the timers on any H-TRON or D-TRON pumps once the Technical Inspection Due alarm has been triggered. If you are still under warranty, I would suggest to any users to call and get a warranty replacement fo whatever reason you find necessary

The ONLY explanation given to me was that they've discontinued the Inspections now that the Spirit is available. I asked what If I didn't have insurance to purchase another pump, no difference, they would not reactivate the old pumps.

When I questioned her on what the options are for "further use" of the Spirit Pump once the timer expires, as per the user manual on page 159, all she could say was that she would forward me to the product specialist's mailbox. To me it sounds as if there are NO options and they just want to hook you in.

When I objected citing the change in 'policy' to H-Tron & D-Tron I asked her why would I want a Spirit pump when in 4 years it would only be good for a doorstop? Afterall, if they can screw H-Tron & D-Tron pump customers, they can do the same to you in 4 years when they have a replacement for the Spirit.

[Dewey]

This is important info for those considering this pump, and I appreciate your info. on this.

[w5wjp]

Since the Spirit was on my short list of pumps, I called them today.

Wow....what an attitude!!!!!

That is the way our pumps have always been and always will be...etc Don't you what new and better technology? I told them that "new and better" can be an oxymoron and they told me that obviously I don't NEED their pump.

My list is now down to Cozmo and Minimed.

[trifona]

Since the Spirit was on my short list of pumps, I called them today.

Wow....what an attitude!!!!!

That is the way our pumps have always been and always will be...etc Don't you what new and better technology? I told them that "new and better" can be an oxymoron and they told me that obviously I don't NEED their pump.

My list is now down to Cozmo and Minimed.

Unbelievable! They used that EXACT Phrase when I called them last month: "Don't you what new and better technology?". They also had an unconscionable attitude about it..both times I called. Once it was late on the weekend and I only spoke to technical support, so I figured I would wait to speak to a regular pump rep during the day, and got the same lines and same attitude. It is obvious that they are on a script. They need to change that script and retrain their employees.

It is a BLATANT LIE that their pumps have aways been that way. They used to require a "technical inspection" every two years and during this time they would reset the timers for another two years before another inspection was due. After I upgraded to the D-Tron I had my H-Tron's sent in for inspection and timers reset, and they had no problem in following the procedure then. No....they just changed their procedure.

I received a letter along with a D-Tron replacement pump earlier in the fall. The letter was a notice that the wording for Alert 5 & Error 5 on the back of the pump was being changed from "Technical Inspection Due" to "End of Use Time"

In Disetronic jargon, Alert means it is coming soon (3 weeks warning If I recall correctly) and Error means it is imminent that the pump will shut down.

[KMP]

Thanks for posting this thread. I am interested in getting a pump and I cannot believe that they pull this type of programming. Ugggggggg.

"Hey use our product ...we will tell you it lasts forever...but we ALSO program it to die in a few years so you HAVE to come crawling back to us.... Don't worry about it Just give us your money" Ugggggg
:albertein

[It Ain't Over]

That would definitely be a deal breaker for me. I don't want a shelf life on my pump. Heck....my pancreas did that already and I wasn't happy.

Now that is the humor only a 'd' could understand:shakehand

[w5wjp]

Local rep for Accuchek called this morning. Told her about the call to tech support and the "feature".

She admitted that the pump did shut down at 6 years. Asked her about what would happen if I did not have insurance in 6 years and she said "You would need to get a new pump. Don't you want new and better technology?"

She was surprised at the attitude of tech support. She also said that they have sold pumps for as low as $5/mo to people without insurance.

Ummmmmm....$5 guzinta $5500, 1100 times. Six years is only 72 months. 1100/72 = dead pump. Anyone else have problems with this math?

[Funnygrl]

Local rep for Accuchek called this morning. Told her about the call to tech support and the "feature".

She admitted that the pump did shut down at 6 years. Asked her about what would happen if I did not have insurance in 6 years and she said "You would need to get a new pump. Don't you want new and better technology?"

She was surprised at the attitude of tech support. She also said that they have sold pumps for as low as $5/mo to people without insurance.

Ummmmmm....$5 guzinta $5500, 1100 times. Six years is only 72 months. 1100/72 = dead pump. Anyone else have problems with this math?
Man, that's like paying for 92 years for a pump that will last 6 years. The $5/month must include some kinda discount. I am pretty sure most of the companies give discounts for those without insurance.

[JediSkipdogg]

Man, that's like paying for 92 years for a pump that will last 6 years. The $5/month must include some kinda discount. I am pretty sure most of the companies give discounts for those without insurance.

And it's usually a model a few back. I know people can still get a Minimed 508 for like $1000. I can't recall where I saw that once, but it was a huge discount. Basically the pump company just wanting to get rid of older pumps that are traded in. Heck, the pump was sold once, they made $6000 then, they give you $500 to sell it back to them, then they resell it after a checkup for say $1000. Another $500 profit for them.

[trifona]

Local rep for Accuchek called this morning. Told her about the call to tech support and the "feature".

She admitted that the pump did shut down at 6 years. Asked her about what would happen if I did not have insurance in 6 years and she said "You would need to get a new pump. Don't you want new and better technology?"


The only good thing in that line of rubbish is the apparent confirmation of what was earlier suspected; That buyers have no further options once the timers run down.

Page 159 of the Spirit Reference manual, states:

"Contact Pump Support @ 1-800-688-4578 to discuss your options for further use of the Accu-Chek Spirit insulin pump"

That statement is a line of bull designed to deceive. The only option available to the end user is to go back to syringes or buy a new insulin pump. There are no options for further use of this pump based on the above quoted statement.

No notice in their marketing materials and apparent deception in their reference materials. Disgusting.

[JasonJayhawk]

If I were an investor reading this forum, I'd be dumping my shares pretty quickly...but then again, maybe not --read on. The "new and better technology" song must be what they sing to insurance companies.

Some insurance companies require specific pumps.

They will likely offer significant discounts to insurance companies that select this device as their covered medical equipment. Insurance companies will love the steep discounts, because I see no feasable reason why a user would select this pump -- with the exception of enjoying the "upside down" screen.

(And why do I fear they have a patent on this feature to prevent other companies from doing the same thing?)

This is why the customer service can afford to be rude. They know that their patients will only be using them because they had no other choice.

They call this the "Spirit"? Sounds like something evil to me. And by the way, the only people they would offer a pump to for $5/month would likely be a very limited case (perhaps a famous person?). But if you think about it, the pump materials probably cost less than $50 to manufacturer. This is a big cash cow. The high cost is in marketing ($750-$1,000 commission to the pump rep that sells it to you), insurance/lawsuit, R&D, and of course, payment for the engineers and 24 hour customer service.

[diabolique]

Hello to everyone.
I have just joined this forum and I am delighted to find a place to meet other diabetics and pump users such as myself. This is my first post.

I just got the Spirit about 10 days ago after being on the H-Tron for 10 years. I admit I did little research and impulsively said yes to the Spirit. What attracted me to it was that the pump and meter data can be downloaded via infrared connection to a Zire palm pilot that is also included. I had been using an old Palm One with an inexpensive shareware for manually entering and collating data for blood sugars/bolus/meals/carbs and of course exporting that data from the Palm to my home computer so I could organize it for my doctor. I am sure many of you do this.

I just called Accuchek/Disetronic because I couldn't figure out how to download the meter/pump data exported to the Zire PalmOne to my home computer using the AccuChek software shipped with the Spirit loaded on my computer.

Guess what: YOU CAN'T. The tech rep explained that I should just show my doctor the handheld device. "That's how to use it!" You can back up the data, she assured me but you can't "see" or output it! She assured me there will be new software in a year.

I just can't begin to express the stupidity of that design or amazement that a major multinational pharmacutical can overlook the obvious. If this tech is not mistaken, it means the whole purpose of the Spirit system is defeated. This is not "new & better technology", this is just dumb.

When I tell people I've been diabetic for 30 years they often assume the needles are the worst thing about managing diabetes. No it's not. Nor is pricking your finger 5,6,7,8 times a day, nor the diet restrictions. I think the worst thing is the record keeping, methodically writing this all down, day in and day out for the doctor! I hoped the Spirit System would make the record keeping easier. Alas, not so.

I will call again tomorrow, go up the management chain and see if I can get more information.

Many thanks.

[egi]

When I researched different pumps, I think I was told that I have 30 days
to return the pump for a full refund, if I don't like it.

You might want to consider this option, if available to you.

[JediSkipdogg]

Sorry to hear your bad experience. My personal peeve with companies is they don't tell the full story on their websites and many times you have to specifically ask them the question you want answered. For example, with each company here is my biggest peeve.....

Cozmo - Still thinking on this.

Animas - They don't inform about the stinging sensation one may have. Granted, it's a small percent of users, it's large enough to annoy many that have it, but only turn a small percent away (I'd say less than 1/2%.)

Minimed - They pull people in with their CGMS, yet forget to tell many that it's not insurance covered. They also tell people that it's superbly accurate, but neglect to say it does have flaws some have readings that are extremely off and false alarms at times.

Spirit - They insist that insurance will replace a pump in 4 years so they have the timer on their pump for good reasons. What they fail to realize is that not all insurance companies will replace with the 4 year deadline and that it's unsurance right now how many insurance companies will replace a pump based on the 4 year deadline. Therefore thousands of users (mainly those that may/can lose insurance in 4 years from now) are left hanging and can go pumpless in 4 years. I know I could lose my job any day being government base and if I went without a pump in 4 years I could be really screwed on control since I rely heavily on it now and I would actually use a pump out of warranty instead of taking a gamble of not using a pump at all.




Keep in mind the above are personal peeves. HOwever, they are ones that you have to actually know in advance before going to their website. The companies either swear or neglect to mention the above problems until you basically drill them about it and even then, sometimes act like it's so small. Many times they also pull you in with thier "future promises" that they can't give any date on coming out. ALL pump companies are notorious for this but they have ZERO say on what the furure will bring. The FDA/Gov't controls that and Accu-Chek found that out with their Spirit pump when their Spirit was ready for realease in 2005 but was held back by a simple 3-5 year old import ban on out of country pumps.

[JasonJayhawk]

Thanks for the info and for signing up to share it, diabolique.

I hope your 30-day limit is not up. This is a little known fact from pump companies -- do not allow them to stall you to the 30 days. Your insurance company can also help with the return of this product.

The only way this pump will succeed in the market is if they get insurance companies to exclusively offer this pump only. The H-Tron is known by my endocrinologist as a "work-horse pump" -- no thrills, no features, simply enough to let a person survive.

I'd love to see a Spirit company rep comment on this thread.

[Funnygrl]

I created a chart that got published on the Insulin-Pumpers.org website. I mentioned this flaw and lo and behold, within 24 hours a spirit rep did e-mail me to complain.


I can assure you the ACCU-CHEK Spirit insulin pump will not shut down after four years. I’m not sure how this rumor was started, but as a representative of the company, and one of the marketing people responsible for bringing it to market, I can assure you it is not true.

That's part of the e-mail he sent. I referred him to this thread, and he maintained he ground.

[JasonJayhawk]

This would be an interesting question to call and ask one of their reps. Hmmmm, a recorded phone call...to be posted on the forum!

Jedi...did you ever call your local rep?

[JediSkipdogg]

This would be an interesting question to call and ask one of their reps. Hmmmm, a recorded phone call...to be posted on the forum!

Jedi...did you ever call your local rep?

No, because once I found the manual at....

Product User Guides (http://www.disetronic-usa.com/productuserguides_74.htm)

and then clicking on...

http://www.disetronic-usa.com/files/General/Instructions%20For%20Use/Manual%20VVF2%20121605.pdf

and then going to pages....151....

Alert A5: PUMP TIMER
Your pump’s operating time will expire soon. It is recommended that you replace your pump after a period of four years of running time. After the alert A5: PUMP TIMER occurs, the ACCU-CHEK Spirit insulin pump will display the symbol to
remind you to check the timer.
1. Press ftwice to turn off and to confirm the alert.
2. Put your pump in RUN mode.
3. Go to the INFORMATION screen on your pump.
4. Move to the PUMP TIMER screen.
The days until the pump timer expires are shown.

When the PUMP TIMER reaches zero, the pump will change to STOP mode and no longer operate. An error, E5: END OF OPERATION, will appear on the display. Contact Pump Support at 1-800-688-4578 to discuss your options for further
use of your ACCU-CHEK Spirit insulin pump. See the section “Review the Time Remaining” (page 112) for more information.

Note:
The alert A5: PUMP TIMER ALERT and the error E5: END OF OPERATION are based on running time (the total time the pump is in RUN mode) and not calendar years. However, the warranty is based on the date the pump was purchased.

From page 158.....

Error E5: END OF OPERATION
Your pump timer has reached zero. The pump will change to STOP mode and will no longer operate. An error E5: END OF OPERATION will appear on the display. It is recommended that you replace your pump after four years. Before this error
occurs, an alert A5: PUMP TIMER will remind you to replace your pump soon.
1. Press ftwice to turn off and to confirm the error.
2. Contact Pump Support at 1-800-688-4578 to discuss your options for further use of the ACCU-CHEK Spirit insulin pump.

And above said to go to page 112...so...

Review the Time Remaining
Your pump is designed to be a highly reliable system that will give you worry-free performance for a long time. For best performance, a pump timer limits the operating time of the pump. This timer counts the number of days of operation
remaining for the ACCU-CHEK Spirit insulin pump.
Before the pump timer expires, an alert will remind you of the upcoming end of operating time so that you can arrange to get a new one. The pump timer symbol ( ) appears in the RUN screen or STOP screen as a reminder. When the timer expires, an error occurs and your pump goes into STOP mode. It can no longer be put into RUN mode. See the sections “Alert A5: PUMP TIMER” (page 151) and “Error E5: END OF OPERATION” (page 158) for more information. Review the number of days left until the pump timer expires in the INFORMATION menu.
Follow the steps below:
1. Press dto move to the INFORMATION screen. Press fto select.
2. Press dto move to the PUMP TIMER screen. The days until the pump timer expires is shown.
3. Press fto exit.


3 times in their manual it mentions shutting off. And this is from the Disetronic USA site not the Disetronic DE site. I think that explains enough that it shuts off, so why even put it in their manual if it doesn't?

[Dewey]

Seems to me that the printed text in the Owner's Manual doesn't lie.

Sorry, but I think companies need to put people first, rather than worrying about being offended when a customer comments on (or complains about) a design flaw, and about whether they're going to make a buck off a potential sale! To me, a timer IS a flaw & should be fixed or changed. After four years, regardless of whether a person's with Disetronic/Accu-chek or whomever, they have the option & the right to go to ANY pump company they want, providing insurance is willing to pay (or they have the money to purchase out of pocket). So why bother to put a timer in the pump!? (Don't answer that: It's a rhetorical question. ;))

[Funnygrl]

I've been trying to find some redeeming features to the Accu-chek pump and I'm just not seeing them. Forget the whole timer issue, I don't understand why someone would choose this pump, regardless of the timer, over other pumps.

Seems to me that the printed text in the Owner's Manual doesn't lie.

Sorry, but I think companies need to put people first, rather than worrying about being offended when a customer comments on (or complains about) a design flaw, and about whether they're going to make a buck off a potential sale! To me, a timer IS a flaw & should be fixed or changed. After four years, regardless of whether a person's with Disetronic/Accu-chek or whomever, they have the option & the right to go to ANY pump company they want, providing insurance is willing to pay (or they have the money to purchase out of pocket). So why bother to put a timer in the pump!? (Don't answer that: It's a rhetorical question. ;))
Exactly, and if my pump just died for no reason other than programmed death, I would RUN to another company. And people may not have insurance- rather than force them back on MDI, I would think they could still make money off reservoirs and such. But I can't see anyone buying this pump the way it's set up.

[greengirl]

I too got the newer and better technology ****. Ironically just after I decided I wasn't intrested in the new Accu-Chec pump they called me to upgrade my from my d-tron plus. I asked why the would do this so the pump couldnt be used after four years. I was asked "Don't you want newer and better technology?" and I told her I WANT a lot of things. I also said what happened if I lose my insurance a year before they pay for a new pump. Wouldn't they rather I still buy supplies from them as I would used the pump if it worked fine and couldn't afford newer technology? It wasn't answer I was just told that I should want this newer pump. Well to be honest I don't see why I would pay for a new pump that didn't have as many features as the other pumps on the market. Just because I have insurance doesn't mean I should waste the money just because the will pay out. This pump is simply not competitive with the others. They probably only have a chance with keeping current disetronic customers that have no knowledge of the other pumps available.

[trifona]

Seems to me that the printed text in the Owner's Manual doesn't lie.

Sorry, but I think companies need to put people first, rather than worrying about being offended when a customer comments on (or complains about) a design flaw, and about whether they're going to make a buck off a potential sale! To me, a timer IS a flaw & should be fixed or changed. After four years, regardless of whether a person's with Disetronic/Accu-chek or whomever, they have the option & the right to go to ANY pump company they want, providing insurance is willing to pay (or they have the money to purchase out of pocket). So why bother to put a timer in the pump!? (Don't answer that: It's a rhetorical question. ;))


The Reference manual for the Spirit pump is no longer available on the Disetronic Web Site.

I don't know if Disetronic has been feeling the heat about their new "feature" :puke: or if their website administrator dropped the ball, but it is gone. You'll also notice that all the links in this thread that document the evidence collected to date are also dead.

This page has links to all the Disetronic reference manuals...and conveniently enough, the link to the Spirit's manual is dead:

Disetronic USA - Insulin Pump Therapy |*Resources |*Reference |*Product User Guides (http://www.disetronic-usa.com/dstrnc_us/rewrite/content/en_US/5.2.2:20/article/DCM_general_article_384.htm)


Oversight or whitewash? You be the judge.

[Dewey]

This page has links to all the Disetronic reference manuals...and conveniently enough, the link to the Spirit's manual is dead:

Disetronic USA - Insulin Pump Therapy | Resources | Reference | Product User Guides (http://www.disetronic-usa.com/dstrnc_us/rewrite/content/en_US/5.2.2:20/article/DCM_general_article_384.htm)


Oversight or whitewash? You be the judge.
Think it had a timer on it? Sorry, cheap shot, I know...:tomato:

[Funnygrl]

This is truly incredible. I'm just incredulous that a company can get away with this. I'm not too concerned though, seeing as regardless of that, the pump has amny other flaws imo.

[trifona]

Think it had a timer on it? Sorry, cheap shot, I know...:tomato:

Dewey,

"Don't you want newer technology?"

[Funnygrl]

Dewey,

"Don't you want newer technology?"
I don't want broken technology...

[Dewey]

Dewey,

"Don't you want newer technology?"

LOL :rofl: Ummm...."I plead the 5th." (hehe)

[JasonJayhawk]

You had better believe they are watching the forums and holding weekend meetings over this "feature"!

When I joined insulin-pumpers.org (and indicated that I didn't pump on my new user profile), I received several emails from different people telling me about the "great" things that their brand of insulin pump provided, and was even given phone numbers to contact the companies. It later occurred to me that these "end-users" were probably more than just end-users, but dedicated sales plants, as they had more than just a casual interest in me picking "their" particular pump.

"Don't you want newer technology?" makes me want to hurl!

[Funnygrl]

Of course she wants new technology. That's why she has a Cozmo ;)

[JediSkipdogg]

Of course she wants new technology. That's why she has a Cozmo ;)

PUMP WAR!!!!!! PUMP WAR!!!!!!! PUMP WAR!!!!!!!!!!!!


:rofl:

[trifona]

PUMP WAR!!!!!! PUMP WAR!!!!!!! PUMP WAR!!!!!!!!!!!!


:rofl:


Now now people let's settle down...The best pump is the pump you're going to use

</sarcasm>

[JasonJayhawk]

I emailed "support" on the Spirit's website, where they claimed that a response would be made "very quickly," asking for a link to the pump's instruction manual as well as confirmation about the 4-year expiration.

Three weeks have passed, and still no reply.

If they plan on making money on this pump, they'd sure as heck better improve their response times.

[solox316]

I know there is another thread about this somewhere... I spoke with a good friend of mine who work at AccuCheck. He confirmed the Spirit pumps now have a shut off time of 6 years (in the US at least), as opposed to the previous 4 years. Regardless of what the user's guide online says.

[ravenmocker]

My back up pump which had never been out of the box, also displayed 04 occlusion when I put in batteries. The pump I was wearing was beeping an 04 occluson. It obviiously has noting to do with usage. Techinal support tried to help me get them running and finally said my warenty was no longer valad and that I would need to upgrade, seems more like a hostage negotiation to me.

[ravenmocker]

I was never told anything about a recall. They just sent me two new pumps to replace the two I had. Im sure if they mentioned a recall I would have spent many sleepless nights worring about it.
I am wondering how can a brand new pump , which has never been in use expire. My son had a pokemon silver and a gold game that had a battery inside it and when the internal battery died it didnt play anymore. You were suppose to send it back to the company and have it replaced. Im wondering if they did something like that?

[JediSkipdogg]

My back up pump which had never been out of the box, also displayed 04 occlusion when I put in batteries. The pump I was wearing was beeping an 04 occluson. It obviiously has noting to do with usage. Techinal support tried to help me get them running and finally said my warenty was no longer valad and that I would need to upgrade, seems more like a hostage negotiation to me.

The timers on the Disetronic are from the time the pump is first started. It has NOTHING to do with total usage of the pump but from the date it was initiated. So simply putting a battery in it when you first got them would initiate both of them unless they do/did it before shipping.

I was never told anything about a recall. They just sent me two new pumps to replace the two I had. Im sure if they mentioned a recall I would have spent many sleepless nights worring about it.
I am wondering how can a brand new pump , which has never been in use expire. My son had a pokemon silver and a gold game that had a battery inside it and when the internal battery died it didnt play anymore. You were suppose to send it back to the company and have it replaced. Im wondering if they did something like that?

I believe the theory was it would help to make sure you got a new pump. It would 1) Force the insurance company into buying you one. If they knew yours was going to shut off then they couldn't mess around on approving a new one. 2) It would force you to stay up to date. That way you don't get outdated technology or have a pump suddenly break on you (although I think the chances of breaking in 10 years are the same as 2 years.)

Personally, I think the reason is because it makes them more money. Nothing like a guarantee that you get a $6000 every 4 years for users.

[trifona]

The timers on the Disetronic are from the time the pump is first started. It has NOTHING to do with total usage of the pump but from the date it was initiated. So simply putting a battery in it when you first got them would initiate both of them unless they do/did it before shipping.


Incorrect. The timers in the H-Tron & D-Tron are based on operational time. They only run down as long as batteries are installed.

[BlueSky]

.... the pump materials probably cost less than $50 to manufacturer. This is a big cash cow. .....
That being the case, why do the pump companies need to charge so much for them. Surely it would make more sense to sell the pump for, say, $300 and to make the real money out of proprietary supplies. At $3,000 per annum, the revenue from supplies over a 6 year pump life would be $18,000. Which by far exceeds the $7,000 pump price tag.

[JasonJayhawk]

That being the case, why do the pump companies need to charge so much for them.

Oh no, you've opened a pandora's box!

R&D is what they'd like to point at for where the money goes to keep their pipelines full and coming out with something new every 2 years, but then we can consider CEO salaries, lawsuit litigation from malfuctions, costs for patent protection and litiigation against other DME companies ("Can't we just all get along?" -- No! Only the paranoid survive the technology war!), salaries for employees, not to mention healthcare of their own.

I would suspect that their own employee healthcare keeps costs up, as not many "healthy" people would just so happen to choose to go into a job (such as nursing) just because they love it. It's usually a personal motivation, so the people going into those engineering/nursing/sales careers usually have a reason (such as a chronic health condition), that drives costs up even higher.

But the physical cost of manufacturing the device isn't low. If it was high, we'd never get our hands on the products for just $3K-$7K.

Infusion sets are made by hand, typically in Mexico, because of reduced labor costs. They don't cost that much to make, but when considering how much money they cost, we realize how much lawyers and CEO's get paid to keep the wheels turning.

Is it a bad thing? If we are the CEO, R&D developer, tech support person that answers the phone at 3 AM, or the person in Mexico who has a job to just barely put food on the table, then no, it's not a bad thing.

But if we're the person that works hard to live, then it's not so good. *sigh*

[JediSkipdogg]

I think one big key that most forget when it comes to pump prices is the benefits recieved by that company. Pump companies truely do bend over backwords for most (at least Animas has for me.) Take the following items as an example...

1) Loaner pumps - If you go on a trip I've yet to find a pump company that will not send you a spare pump out. Obviously the cost of them sending it to you and you sending it back is not free. Remember, these items have to be insured at up to $6000 (or whatever they deem the actual pump price) and most send them out overnight.

2) Unlimited free replacements - In my time with ANimas I think I've had 5 replacement pumps (most stupid cracks around the battery cap on my current one.) They have to recover those feels for next day air shipping along with the cost of the replacement. That's all figured into the initial price.

3) 24/7 AMERICAN Tech Support - At least with Animas, they are in America. They have to pay some people to staff the phones 24/7 and since they don't outsource that job (I asked the person one time where they were and they said West Chester, PA) they have to include that cost in the pump.

4) R&D - Pump design is not easy. Ijust wish they'd work on the software better, but you do have to be impressed how you can get so much in a pump. Remember, a AA or AAA battery and the insulin cartridge take up I'd say more than 50% of the space in a pump.

5) Startup Training - I think this can vary greatly with pump companies. Everytime I've been training by Animas it was by someone from or contracting with ANimas. It was not done by the doctor's office. Therefore they have to pay that person for a training that takes a couple of hours. And if it's the initial first time pumper training, then they have to add that you may call the trainer off hours at home, which I'm sure they get paid for somehow.

The benefits you recieve for using that companies pump are one reason it's so high. How many home electronics do you own with a 4 year standard warranty? I can't name any in my place. I'm sure they could charge $1000 less and make it a 1 year warranty. At which point we'd all be getting new pumps all the time.

[BlueSky]

.... The benefits you recieve for using that companies pump are one reason it's so high. ....
I wasn't suggesting that the pump companies are making too much money. I was was just questioning the business model. The pump companies could make more money if they only covered their costs on the pump but hooked their customers into buying proprietary supplies for the life of the pump. BG monitor companies do it with metres & test strips. Novo and Lily do it with their pens & insulin. The financial dynamics of doing the same thing with pumps and supplies is even more compelling.

[Funnygrl]

I wasn't suggesting that the pump companies are making too much money. I was was just questioning the business model. The pump companies could make more money if they only covered their costs on the pump but hooked their customers into buying proprietary supplies for the life of the pump. BG monitor companies do it with metres & test strips. Novo and Lily do it with their pens & insulin. The financial dynamics of doing the same thing with pumps and supplies is even more compelling.
Reservoirs are proprietary for every pump. MM tried to make sets proprietary too, and another company came out with a reservoir that let them use non-proprietary sets anyways. Omnipod is also trying that. We'll see how it goes.

[shabbie6247]

as someone who is shortly to receive an accu-check pump (possibly the spirit but not sure).
this thread doesnt seem to cover the good side of accu-check pumps (thats if there are any!).
being in the uk, i dont actually get a choice in my 'funded by the NHS pump'...choice of one!

so...any good points?

[JediSkipdogg]

so...any good points?

Ummmm.....The screen can be flipped 180 degrees so that no matter how you wear the pump, the screen can be the best view for you to read it without turning it.

[Funnygrl]

It has the largest reservoir- 315 units. You can get skins for it. Seriously, any pump is better than MDI, but this one kinda is the under achiever of pumps.

[jimbob]

it does most everything any other pump does and you might even be able to get a PDA or PDA phone with it.

[Funnygrl]

it does most everything any other pump does and you might even be able to get a PDA or PDA phone with it.
The PDA and phone option is only in the US. It doesn't do everything other pumps do. There's no bolus wizard, you have to program the basal rate in hour increments and program every hour separate, and there's just a lot of weird programming quirks to it.

Shabbie, you can check out the virtual pump on their site and get a feel for it.

[notme]

Honestly Shabbie ANY pump is better than no pump at all. I think you are going to find you love it. I stuck with my old 508 pump for years because it was a good workhorse. It also did not have a bolus wizard, but I didn't know what it was so I didn't miss it. It clicked when it gave a bolus and I loved that feature because I knew it was working. I still have my old 508 as a backup. I don't have the heart to get rid of it.

All in all, I think you are going to find that you get much better control with your pump. Enjoy it and enjoy the lower blood sugar you are going to achieve.

[shabbie6247]

Shabbie, you can check out the virtual pump on their site and get a feel for it.

yeah i'll be sure to do that. but you cant beat good old experience of other users for feedback ;-)

[volzman]

I thing someone knows how to hack these pumps, I have the h-tron and it had a tech inspection due, I took i apart to try to hack it and it is impossable from what i can see but there has to be a way.

[Glucoweb]

I almost purchased the Spirit as my next pump last week. I am glad I decided not too now after reading this thread. The end of use timer would really annoy the snot out of me. My current pump's warranty ran out in February and I completely forgot about it. I am sure the alert would let me know, but I still have not gotten my new pump so I would have to have been on shots for a while now. I am sticking with my Cozmo.

[Funnygrl]

I almost purchased the Spirit as my next pump last week. I am glad I decided not too now after reading this thread. The end of use timer would really annoy the snot out of me. My current pump's warranty ran out in February and I completely forgot about it. I am sure the alert would let me know, but I still have not gotten my new pump so I would have to have been on shots for a while now. I am sticking with my Cozmo.
Are you getting a new Cozmo or just waiting for it to die?

[Glucoweb]

I hope to be getting a new Cozmo, but the Smith's reimbursement rep told me a lot of insurance companies are starting to not wanting to cover the cost of a new pump, even if it is out warranty and the pump is still functioning correctly. I am waiting to here back from the rep, after they submit the paperwork.

[-light-]

As of 2008, the Accu-Chek Spirit 'expires' after 6 years.
The warranty coveres the Spirit for 6 years too.

-Annika