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View Full Version : Hello, Thanks, Some questions, some history and a rant...


Gary_W
01-18-2007, 03:56 AM
...so something for everyone with a bit of luck :smile:

Very long post, so probably best to go grab yourself a coffee before we start.

I only found this site a week ago and have been reading through the wide range of interesting posts ever since. A few of the things I have read have been incredibly helpful, hence the 'thank you' to those who contribute on here for the benefit of us all. As you'll see, it's starting to make a difference already.

Now for my 'hello'. I'm 37 and was diagnosed as type 1 when I was 25. I have an older brother whose type 1 turned up when he was 3, so at least mine had the decency to leave my childhood alone. These days, I use Lantus at night and NovoRapid for bolus.

Anyway, my reason for coming here at all in the first place was that I have been feeling pretty lousy for a long time now. Blood glucose seeming to bounce off the endstops and rarely stick in the good bits. Either 3 or 18. Not much fun at all really. The only good news was that I always get hypo warning signs and am able to treat in time, but you can still do without them. My last HBA1c was 8.0. Not great, but when you consider how often I go hypo then it tells a story of how often I've had the highs...

2 years ago, I changed from hospital based care to GP based care(that's your local office based doctor for our friends elsewhere in the world). My reason for doing so was that the hospital based care I received locally was nothing short of shocking. Multiple cancelled appointments, inconsistant and inaccurate advice and generally feeling like I was on my own with this one. I was told that I would be under a diabetes specialist nurse at the GP, and anything she couldn't handle would be refered back to the hospital. I liked the sound of this, as at least I could get an appointment which didn't get cancelled...

Anyway, last week I finally got sick of the fact that I feel ill pretty much constantly. I got a telephone appointment with my specialist nurse. She's a very nice lady, but it turns out she's not a specialist in diabetes at all. She's a practice nurse that has been on a short course. As such, when I told her what had been going on, she told me that she didn't know how to help and that I would have to go back to the hospital. I called the hospital and was told that, as I was under GP care, I had been discharged as a patient and they were not allowed to help me. If I wanted help or advice I would have to get my GP to write to them and re-refer me.

So here is the rant. Or one of them anyway. The NHS over here is all about waiting list targets. My local hosptial was failing on its targets to see patients within a certain timescale. So it farmed out as many patients as possible to primary care and reduced its patient load so it could meet its targets. Had I known that I was being discharged and that the local person could do little more than take blood and discuss the results, I wouldn't have gone down this route. I wonder how many more people in the UK are now cared for by practice nurses with a small amount of diabetes knowledge? Not ragging on my local nurse, as I have a lot of time for her. Just a system putting the work in the wrong places to make the figures look good.

The good news is that the waiting list initiative above has worked. My (excellent) GP wrote a referal and I have a hospital appointment in 10 days time. Which is good for the NHS.

Anyway, rather than waiting for the appointment, I got hold of the hospital again and after a fairly bloody battle with the receptionist, I got through to speak to a guy who IS a specialist nurse. The whole team has changed at the hosptial and I feel very positive about going back there. He gave me a few bits of advice that have already changed my life. The advice given is nothing new to most of you here, as I now realise, but I was completely ignorant of these facts. Searching here has taught me more and I've made some more changes that have also had a beneficial effect.

So the things I've learned from him:

1. The specialist told me about a carb ratio. Until now, I have been working entirely on guesswork. I know that this is going to seem astonishing to most of you, but I have genuinely never known that there was an actual ratio. I have always adjusted my bolus dose with meals, but have taken a best guess. He told me to have a go with 1 unit per 10g and see how it went, and get back to him for help if needed prior to the appointment.

2. He asked about the amount I inject. Answer was 35 of Lantus at night, about 8 NovoRapid in the morning, nothing at lunchtime and between 10-12 units of NovoRapid with my evening meal. Unless I go hypo, I don't eat between meals, besides having a glass of milk and maybe a biscuit before bed. He told me that not injecting at lunchtime was crazy if I was eating carbs. Which I always do. I explained that if I inject anything I'd definately go hypo late afternoon.

3. He also asked how I would treat a hypo. To which the answer is carefully on a good day, fridge emptying if you get one of the real bad ones where you eat till you stop shaking and then have an 18 blood sugar.

In response to this, I found this site for more details and got some carb counting books. It seems to work fine. A bit hard to say as I've had a horrible cold for the last few days which always adds to the excitement of our lives, but for the most part the improvement has been astonishing. Use of our kitchen scales has also shown that I clearly eat a lot more than I thought I did. So I've cut back on the carbs and (at the moment) go with the 1:10 ratio.

Cannot remember the poster or the post on here (sorry, searching again has not helped) but a big thank you to whoever posted the opinion that Lantus should only be 25%-50% of your overall insulin. I realise that I have been using Lantus like the old style 'mix short and long acting in the same syringe and inject before breakfast. The short sorts out breakfast, the long sorts out lunch'. Lantus, as most of you seem to know, is just not designed to do this. Strangely enough, my brother (on Levemir) is doing similar things to me (as in way too much Levemir, not enough bolus).

I have always told the doctors here what my doses have been and not one has ever batted an eyelid before now.

I have reduced the Lantus to 20, and it works. I also found the link saying that you do not need a snack with Lantus, and you should aim to go to bed with a blood glucose of 5-6. A real alien concept to me; previously, if I was less than 7.5 before bed I'd have a couple of biscuits or risk waking up badly hypo.

We have two kids that have been waking us up a fair bit at night, which has made the testing easy. The last two nights I have gone to bed at 5.0, been 5.0 during the night and woken up as 5.0. Which means the Lantus is doing its job. Or have I got this wrong?

Due to learning more about Novorapid profile, I have had the confidence to give correction doses at 2 hours post meal if needed. Again, something I would not have done and it is thanks to this site.

Man-flu not widthstanding, I have felt so much better this last week I cannot believe it. Shame I didn't know about ratios before or about the fact that Lantus does NOT do the same job as the older insulins out there.

If anyone has any specific advice, I'd be glad to receive it. I won't tinker with this too much more until the cold goes, but am keen to learn. I always thought I had a pretty good handle on diabetes theory but I'm happy to admit I was wrong.

Specific things I need to understand better now include

1. Is there a 'rule' for how much more to inject when you are ill? Or is it a best guess plus test very regularly (my current technique)

2. Advice on discovering my ratio at differnt times of day would be good. It seems like I need a fair bit more bolus to counteract morning carbs.

Thanks for reading. Sorry for the long haul :hello:

Gary

melissata
01-18-2007, 04:37 AM
Hi Gary, It's good to see that you have learned so much and are getting such good results now. I'm afraid that there are many more like you, that are just not getting good advice from their doctors or others in the medical profession. I have two kids that are type 1, and have always had an interest in figuring out the best way for them. Most of what I learned was from books and from the internet groups like this. We didn't learn carb counting until I decided to put my daughter on a pump, but we used the exchange system before that. My daughters ratio is much higher in the morning and it also depends on the time that she eats breakfast. The early morning breakfast require almost twice as much insulin as later in the day. Weekend and other times that she eats at 9am are in between those two ratios. Trial and error is the way to figure it out. As long as you are counting carbs, you should be able to look at the post meal numbers and start adjusting the ratios. Give each change about 3 days, and adjust again until you get it right. Everyone is different when it comes to illness. Some actually run quite low instead of high, and for different lengths of time, so you are correct in what you are doing. If you are running high enough to produce ketones there is some sort of formula for the extra insulin to get rid of those. Sometimes after a cold, it takes a couple of weeks to get back to normal blood sugars. You are correct in what you say about Lantus. You seem to have the dose correct now. My son is taking Levemir because Lantus didn't last the full 24 hours for him. You shouldn't have to eat to keep from going hypo with either of these. That is the beauty of them.

johgn
01-18-2007, 05:05 AM
1. Is there a 'rule' for how much more to inject when you are ill? Or is it a best guess plus test very regularly (my current technique)


I just take more correctional doses of Humalog (short acting) when sick.

kgm0612
01-18-2007, 05:30 AM
Hey Gary...........sounds to me like you're determined to get your diabetes under control and that's great!

My younger brother was dx'd with diabetes twenty years ago when he turned 21. I was dx'd 4 years ago at the young age of 40! LOL Had symptoms for years prior, but didn't realize the symptoms I was having were diabetes related. How stupid was I!

Have you tossed around the idea of going on a pump? I did shots for almost three years.......it was a roller coaster ride..... highs, lows, and somewhere in between. I started pumping 15 months ago and I love it. I basically follow a low carb diet and my ratio is the same for all meals at 1:10.

Good luck!

Karen

REDLAN
01-18-2007, 11:29 AM
I like you need different insulin to carb ratios at different times of the day - getting them right is a matter of experimenting -

typically I need 1.5 units per 10g in the morning, 1.0/1.1 units per 10g at lunch and 1.3 per 10g in the evening.

in the back of my book I've pasted a table - along the top I've put each ratio 1.5 to 1.0 in .1 increments, down one side actual units of insulin from 1 to 15 (I can't imagine eating that many carbs), and the number of grams of carbs covered by that number of units: looks a bit like this

1.5 1.4 1.3 1.2 1.1 1.0
1 7 7 8 8 9 10
2 13 14 15 17 18 20
3 20 21 23 25 27 30

so when it comes to injecting I count the number of carbs read down the table to the nearest number and then read off the units of insulin I need.

e.g. 25g of carbs with a ratio of 1.3 would require 3 units of insulin

If your BG's are out either increase or decrease the ratio - e.g. for your breakfast dose sounds like you need to increase the ratio. keep incrementing the ratio and testing BG's at the time your bg is the lowest usually about 2 hours after insulin.

using the ratio gives me several advantages such as when taking exercise - the meal I'm eating b4 exercise I drop the ratio down by .2/.3 - I may go a bit high but I will soon burn it off, and it means that I'm not plagued by an insulin induced hypo when I'm working hard which can be an absolute killer.

secondly also there are times when i want a snack - just because... so all I gotta do is count the number of carbs use the right ratio, give myself a jab, and munch away. e.g. a packet of crisps is usually around 15g, and if I'm having one in the afternoon just before my evening basal insulin I tend to use 1.3 which means I need to give myself 2 units.

<table does not format properly - you'll have to squint at it>

Gary_W
01-18-2007, 03:25 PM
Hi all,

Melissa and Redlan - thanks for the advice. I really appreciate the time you've taken to reply and the details given. Good to see some figures relating to higher doses in the morning. I'll give that a go tomorrow. It's not going to be until I've fully shaken off this cold that I'll be able to get my ratios fully pegged, but I certainly need a bit more that 1:10 of a morning no matter what the reason at the moment. I'll go to 1.5 to 10 and if it starts biting back in a few days I'll throttle it back a bit. I like Redlan's table idea for the back of the carb counting book. I'll knock one of those together once I've lived this way for a couple of months and have accurate data.

KGM0612 - My diagnosis was made by a locum GP where we used to live. When I fully went, it was pretty plain to see as I was constantly thirsty, lived in the toilet, felt lousy etc. The annoying thing is that for a year before this, I had been going to my regular GP complaining of severe tiredness, headaches etc and I even told him that I had a brother with diabetes. He refused to blood test, as he said that if I was not constantly thirsty it wasn't what was wrong. He diagnosed migrane and put me on beta blockers. They darn near killed me off completely. Heart rate went down to 38 at rest, and I was permanently freezing. Only stayed on them a few weeks. Didn't sort out the headaches, but the reduction of BG when I started on insulin did the trick (unsurprisingly).

As far as a pump goes, I would potentially consider it in the future, but unless you buy one yourself over here they are pretty hard to get hold of. May be yet another stick I have the wrong end of, but that's my understanding at the moment.


johgn - That's pretty much what I'm doing at the moment. It will be interesting to see how I cope with the next bought of lurgee that turns up once I've got my figures sorted.

Gary

Just_Plain_John
01-19-2007, 07:29 AM
Gary, let me add my congratulations for your fine effort !

I'm still fairly new at being a Type1 (though I had a rare sudden onset in my 40s, not my teens), but I can share a little bit of info on sick day management.

As you will hear often, every diabetic is different, but I had a recent cold and my BG readings ran about 30-50% higher than my desired norms. My sugars actually peaked after my symptoms had cleared significantly, then I had elevated sugars with renewed cold symptoms, then it all cleared suddenly and sugars went back to normal. I didn't adjust my Lantus, but did increase my boluses and got the +2hr post meal readings under control with corrective boluses.

I know a lot of pump users increase their basal rates about 20%, and that's certainly a proper practice (adjust basal). I'll probably do something similar next time.

Gary_W
01-19-2007, 05:23 PM
Hi John,

I must admit I've had a dreadful day today. Whilst I'm still working out my ratio, somewhere between 1 and 1.5 units per 10g of carbs is seeming to be in the ballpark.

This bug I have is horrendous. Both our children have had it, and I can't imagine how the youngest must be feeling as she's only 7 months old and cutting teeth as well. I woke up with a BG of 6.2. Which is great when your sick, but the day went downhill from there.

Breakfast was museli with semi skimmed milk. 60 g of carbs, and I injected 11 units (thinking that was hitting it fairly hard). Two hours later, I was 17.6. I was out and about, went for my pen and found insulin leaking into my pocket. No idea how, but it's a gonner.

Went home, replaced the cartridge and put in another 12 units.

1.5 hours later, I was still 17. Needed to eat, so had a 40g of carbs sandwich and put in another 17 units of insulin. I have never whacked so much in as this in my life.

1.5 hours later I was 2.1.

3 glucose tablets sorted it, and got me through till a meal at 5.

80g or so of carbs. I put in 12 units and hoped. 2 hours later, I needed another 12 units. I am now 5.7 and feeling human for the first time all day.

Man alive, this is fun :banghead:

Just hoping for a more sensible day tomorrow and for this darn bug to clear off and leave me be... At least it's the weekend. Through all of the above, I was working. Including my lantus, that'll be 84 units for me today. Which is about double the normal dose for me.

REDLAN
01-19-2007, 05:52 PM
mebbe just me, but when I'm feeling poorly - and typically my BGs are worst when I have virus I figure that I only need to keep my BG's in a range to keep me feeling comfortable - typically for me I can cope with 13mmol (230) or below - typically I can't tell the difference between feeling **** due to my BG or the infection....

...and I figure I need a break from trying to keep my BG's down and being good...

F*$% it I'm ill for crying out loud - I NEED A BREAK!

I guess what I'm trying to say is that - if you are ill you won't get good control very easily, and so all you have to worry about is keeping your BG at a level that ensures you don't feel worse than the infection - If you feel OK at 17 then don't beat yourself up too much - you can get your control back when you feel better

Gary_W
01-19-2007, 06:04 PM
I hear you and I'm not beating myself up. Unfortunately I do feel pretty dire at 17. I feel a bit lethargic at 13, but it doesn't make me feel physically terrible. Today, I've felt rancid throughout and now can't sleep... Going to go and have a go at that anytime now though

Dan Gato
01-19-2007, 06:08 PM
Gary, Welcome to the forums.
That's a loooooong post.
I'll go get a glass of wine & read it.
See you in a few minutes.

REDLAN
01-19-2007, 06:21 PM
from reading your post - the feeling I got was that you were worried about your high BGs -truth is when you are ill then you need to give yourself some wriggle room.

I feel pretty **** with a 17. with a 13 there is little difference between the illness and feeling **** due to my BG - this comes from experience, SO......


I don't bother trying to get my BG in the 4-8 range when I'm ill...

Everybody's different...

find your level, and that's all you have to aim for - get it back on track when you feel better.

PS....

take it easy, and get well soon :smilie:

Gary_W
01-19-2007, 06:29 PM
Thanks for the reply, Redlan.

It was a worrying day, purely because I couldn't get things down with what seemed (to me) like a sensible amount of insulin. Unfortunately, natures bugs didn't give me long after changing my lantus dose etc to get used to things before feeling dreadful as well due to illness.

Since I've been running so high for so long, I really don't beat myself up anymore if I do stray outside the range. What I personally think is that if I can look myself in the eye and say that I'm keeping well on a day to day basis then the future will have to do what it can do. I want to get things into a decent range to feel better in the here and now and know that the long term benefits are a nice bonus.

I think that, with the pen breaking (first time in 11 odd years that has happened to me) + the bug + big changes in the daily management has made for a bit of a pants day.

Appreciate your best wishes, and hope you keep well too. Don't go breathing near anyone that coughs at the moment, as this one is hideous...

REDLAN
01-20-2007, 02:30 AM
I feel lousy this morning, but it's all self-inflicted (",)

was having a think...

bouncing BGs 3-18, are you injecting too much insulin? You're going low, taking sugar, the body rebounds and then you go high

Correction ratios - average your total daily dose and then divide it into 100, this will give you the BG lowering expected from 1 unit of insulin - e.g. you take 60 units a day 100/60 = 1.7 you have a 15 blood sugar, and you want to get it down to 7, so you need to give yourself 5 units of insulin.

<I've actually tested my correction ratio as the calculation doesn't produce enough BG lowering>

episodes of insulin resistance - I get these on the odd occasion, and they are a pain - you inject and nothing happens - question - are you producing ketones? if your body has started to switch to metabolism of ketones, then you will become insulin resistant - there are members on this forum who suffer from bouts of DKA. talk to your specialist about it - worth asking for a prescription for ketostix, then you can test when you feel lousy.

when I get these periods they usually last for no more than a day, typical duration is 4-6 hours. I use my correction dose as normal - test at 2 hours - give myself another correction dose - test at 2 hours - I keep going until my BG starts to drop - I also aim for a more conservative target - going for an 8/9 rather than the 7 I aim for normally. That way I don't get a nasty hypo.

Gary_W
01-20-2007, 01:05 PM
Hi Redlan,

As far as taking too much insulin goes, I think that prior to last week I certainly was taking too much lantus. I must say that the hypos now are less vicious than on they were. Not sure why. But anyway, it is a lot easier now to just go with 10-15 g of carbs and get over the hypo. I haven't actually had a rebound into the highs through treating a hypo since reducing the lantus. I used to empty the fridge, go high, inject, repeat to fade.

Yesterday I did overdo it a bit at lunchtime, but it was in desperation at trying to get the levels down. The treatment from the resulting hypo was very restrained (as was the hypo) and I only hit a 6 afterwards. I was starting to go again before the evening meal.

I must say I've kept much better today which is a huge relief. I am still needing 1 unit of actrapid per 5 grams of carbs, which is approaching double what I seemed to need prior to the cold. It got me down to a reasonable level 2 hours after breakfast. That ratio overdid it a little bit at lunch, but 1 sugar in an espresso (watch someone slap me for that) and a digestive biscuit got me back to a 6 where I stayed till evening meal. Back down to a 9 now 2 hours after, and considering I'm still a little bit under the weather with the cold I'm more than happy with that.

I really appreciate the formula for working out the correction does; I was wondering how to do that. I recon my total insulin per day will tend to be around 20 lantus, 8 in the am, 8 for lunch and 12-14 of an evening. So around 50 a day. It seems to make sense, as last weekend 1 unit of correction did seem to drop me about 2 points. Look forward to experimenting on a level playing field again :smile:

Thanks again