Dogs sensing lows and Personal Responsibility

[BriOnH]

A while ago, I think it was Dew, posted about dogs that could sense when their human friends are going low and warn them.

About a month or so ago I was helping my good friend promote Bearskin Meadow Diabetic Camp of which he now runs. We were promoting it at the UC Davis Hospital at an event where a bunch of diabetic camps go to pitch to parents and kids who want to go to camp. At the event I saw a girl there with a dog that senses her lows for her.

Pondering how in the world the dog does this, but not so curious as to actually go talk to her about it, she needed to do a set change and could not do it herself.

Far be it for me to judge, and I shouldn't be casting stones, but come on. Where is the line drawn for you take to responsibility for your diabetes? The impression I got from this lady was that she was incapable of managing her diabetes.

How do you feel about that scenerio?

[JediSkipdogg]

Firstly, it was me that posted about the dogs. Unless Dew posted in the past before me.

Now, I guess my question is about how old was the girl? That's where I would wonder about drawing the line. I didn't give myself my own shots till I was about 13 or so. However, before and after that, I had numerous dangerous lows where a dog would have been great. Since pumping, I have no need for one as I regained my detection on the dangerous ones. So I really wouldn't say incapable for her yet.

[DeusXM]

It depends on age, but to be honest I take the view that you and only you should be personally responsible for your diabetes. Ideally you should be in a position that means you never require assistance, so you should be able to:

Test your own BGs
Administer your own injections
Collect your own prescriptions
Check for ketones
Be able to interpret your BG results and take appropriate action

And if you're on a pump you should be able to do whatever else it is you need to be able to do with a pump - not being on one myself I couldn't say for definite what that all involves. But basically by the time you're in your teens you really should have all the aspects of your treatment plan covered.

[2high]

I believe that, by the teen years certainly, you should be able to manage your own D, but I also believe the Paws for Diabetics program is a good one.

Sometimes a midnight hypo wont wake you.. then what?? What if your liver doesn't kick in?? Trouble.

I was staying with my gran the other day, and I **may** have let her dog sleep with me (hehe.. naughty!!). I woke at 12.20 am to Bella nudging me with her nose, pawing at my face and crying, then even biting my ear... I pushed her away at first, but she kept bugging me... I realised I was low, and tested at 1.9 // 34. So.. what if Bella hadn't woken me??

P4D can be a great program, I think it just has to be tweaked to make sure that the D's dont rely too much on their dogs to do everything for them.

[BriOnH]

She was well within her twenties. I think she is a bit of an attention wh@%e too. She had 2 people helping her put in her new site. With a good amount of people surrounding her. Unfortunatly she was right next door to our booth so I was part of that crowd. Sorry for the mix up on who posted it.

Good to see you on Deus. You been busy lately brother? I agree with the responsibilities. As I watched this event occur it made me very angry, as the diabetics there were all children to early teens. I didn't say anything, or send out an angry vibe, but I do regret not talking to her to get the full story.

[2high]

In her 20s and unable to change her own pump set?!?!?!? Aw heck, thats just ridiculous!! I know of little kids who do their own changes!!

[JediSkipdogg]

P4D can be a great program, I think it just has to be tweaked to make sure that the D's dont rely too much on their dogs to do everything for them.

The requirements to get a dog are generally very hard. It's not as easy as picking up the phone and getting one. Although, they do have home kits that teach you how to attempt to train your own dog. I know someone that has a diabetic alert dog and he is in his 50s and he really needed one. No matter what his BG is, he has no changes in mood or feeling. So he had to get a dog for that reason and he said it took him about a year on a list to be considered for one and now the lists are aobut 2-3 years waiting.

[BriOnH]

In her 20s and unable to change her own pump set?!?!?!? Aw heck, thats just ridiculous!! I know of little kids who do their own changes!!


And that's just what I saw. i got the feeling she didn't want to have anything to do with managing diabetes for herself.

I am not sure how I feel about the dog thing. In the end it seems like an awful big responsibilty [not to mention a PITA] to bring a dog everywhere with you just to have it sense lows. On top of that, having to explain why you have the dog to everyone would be awful and get old really fast imo too.

[BriOnH]

The requirements to get a dog are generally very hard. It's not as easy as picking up the phone and getting one. Although, they do have home kits that teach you how to attempt to train your own dog. I know someone that has a diabetic alert dog and he is in his 50s and he really needed one. No matter what his BG is, he has no changes in mood or feeling. So he had to get a dog for that reason and he said it took him about a year on a list to be considered for one and now the lists are aobut 2-3 years waiting.

I wouldn't mind training one of my dogs to do that actually. But I wouldn't ever use the dog as a crutch like this girl seemed to. It would just be a bonus of having pets.

[JediSkipdogg]

On top of that, having to explain why you have the dog to everyone would be awful and get old really fast imo too.

And that would have to be done all the time. Either the dog has to be marked, or you have to say it's a medical assistance dog. You don't have to identify what for, but you do have to let people know when you go into places that dogs aren't allowed.

[xMenace]

Diabetes doesn't discriminate. Mentally challenged people get it too. I know one such case, a 50+ yea old lady. Just the thought of not being able to eat something forces her into ravenous pig-out behavior. She has zero understanding of her condition. She needs contant care. It's basically a death sentence for her.

[Diana]

She sounds like a major attention seeker to me. I appreciate that some people have difficulty sensing lows and may need extra help, but needing to change a pump and not being able to do it herself, on top of it just happening to occur while she is at a diabetes event? I dont know, but if it was me, and I was unable to change my pump site independantly I would make bloody sure that I was at home when it needed changing. And if my site just happened to fail while I was out and about I would just quietly do a normal injection or whatever needed doing, rather than making a song and dance about it. Some people seem to get major kicks out of playing the sick role to the max, at the detriment of those with the same condition who just want to get on with their life and prove that they are just as capable as the next person.

ETA: In the case of people like the lady that xMenance mentions, I understand it can be a lot more complicated. I care for with a lady with an intellectual disability and borderline personality disorder, who gets an ambulance to hospital for no good reason about once a week on average. She doesnt have anything medically wrong with her - I cant imagine what life would be like for her if she had something like diabetes.

[babs2000]

About a month ago my dog Lexy woke me up in the middle of the night. I thought she wanted out but when I got up I new I was having a low. Once I got myself straighted up she wouldn't go out. I'm wondering if she knew I was low. Beth:)

[SueM]

I wouldn't mind training one of my dogs to do that actually. But I wouldn't ever use the dog as a crutch like this girl seemed to. It would just be a bonus of having pets.

I have had 3 dogs and none of them have been trained to detect lows but all of them have or do detect lows.
I think it depends on what sort of a bond you have with your dog.
Saying that have I never ever relied on any of my dogs to tell me when I am low as have always been fully aware of lows.

The Labrador I have now actually goes and brings me the cookie/biscuit container when I am low.( He does get to share:) )
IMHO being reilent on an animal to detect lows is fool hardy. What happens when the dog dies?
R.E, the 20 yr old prat who couldn't/wouldn't change her site,
My personal opinion is that if she can't/wont do it then the prevalige of a pump should be withdrawn untill she is capable of doing the changes for herself. Bet she will learn pretty dam quick :D

[andypoo]

I was actually going to tell Rob,who posted on another post about getting a first alert to maybe get a dog or cat mainly for company,but they can be your "best friend",too. I hate to see someone living alone and not getting much company.

[Chris Graham]

Wow! 20 and she can't change her own site?!? That is ridiculous...unless she mentally challenged.

I think the low sensing dogs are a cool concept. I wouldn't fork out thousands of dollars for one personally, but I think the argument could be made that they are helpful. Especially for folks who live alone. I keep hoping my pug, Stanley, will pick up on it, but so far he just likes to lick my hand after I test. Gross!!!

[soso]

My dog warned me of an earthquake once... it wasn't a big quake (although the biggest one we have had here and enough to send us running from the house) otherwise I would have been fast asleep when it hit... She woke me then stood and whined in the hallway...refusing to go out of the open door and looking back and forth in a strange manner.. I was sitting on the lav by the time the earthquake hit about 2-3 mins later..
I also know a man who has bad epilepsy and ges walkabout all over the neighbourhood whose dog used to lead him home..He got another one when the dog was old to pass the knowledge on, but I don't think the 2nd dog got it...

BTW it occured to me that maybe the girl was mentally challenged in some way..although I sure know people who don't seem very self sufficient, even into their 50's.... I guess a lot depends on those around you and how much they take on for you.
ss

[lgvincent]

I have frequent problems knowing when my blood sugar is low. I would be taken to the hospital about twice a year until Sidney came along. He saw me being treated by paramedics once and after that he would always warn me. After that first observation, I never had to be treated by paramedics during the five and one-half years he was with me. He was killed Christmas Eve morning of 1988. He woke me while I was having an insulin reaction and I let him out alone while I treated it, something I had never done before.

I don't pass out from a lack of responsibility, I simply pass out because of lack of awareness.

Is it possible she was new with the pump and was still uncomfortable with changing the set?

[Staceyy]

I'm sure her parents were responsible for her having the dog. They probably got it in fear for her safety. They may not trust her judgment or she could have ADHD which would make it difficult for her to manage her diabetes. Everyone should be trained to manage their own diabetes but if you can get additional help who also serves as a companion also, I don't see anything wrong with it.

[shockme]

i thinks paws for diabetes is a wonderful thing!like for kids who may not tell you if they're low,or lows while sleeping,or hypo unawareness.but not to have the dog warn you even when you know and go get you a snack cuz you're too lazy to get it yourself!a 20 y/o who can't change her site?!:eek: what a prima donna!on another diabetes forum,there's a man whose son has type 1 and he tests his own bgs.and he is 2!!!!wonder ig the 20 y/o princess even does her own testing-ha t tomess up those pretty nails...:D trish

[BriOnH]

She was not mentally challenged. From what I heard of her her sentences were well constructed and she made up a lot of her materials herself at her booth. I don't believe she was new to the pump either. A girl I was working with that day, Jen, put in the set for her and when she asked why she didn't do it herself her response was "I can't change my own sets, I never have been able to".

What really sucks in this whole deal is we don't have her side of the story. I should have talked to her about it. If I see her at another event I will be sure to do so.

[JJeenn]

Remember that it is not only mental challenges that could make it difficult for her to change her site. She could have a physical disability such as cerebral palsy which makes fine-motor tasks like changing a site impossible (but would be "invisible" the rest of the time). Or she could have a visual impairment that makes it difficult (although that depends on the type of infusion set, some are easier to use than others). I'd be careful about making assumptions without talking to her first. It may be that she just wants attention and is not responsible for her diabetes, but it may be something legitimate.

[June91]

What really sucks in this whole deal is we don't have her side of the story. I should have talked to her about it. If I see her at another event I will be sure to do so.

That would be the right thing to do. I have been taught by more than one embarrassing event not to cast the first stone without knowing the whole story.

[Jill-O]

I wonder if she really could do it herself, but just wanted the "comfort" of someone helping her (looking out for her)? Maybe being a kid (?) and being away from her parents just had her pretending to need more help than she really did?

[Jill-O]

Oh! n/m! I just read her age!!! So, now I wonder if she just was wanting some extra "take care of me" male attention?

[Funnygrl]

She was well within her twenties.

OMG! Wow, just wow. However, I don't see how this is related to her having a dog. The only time anyone has ever helped me with a site was my first site (and that was still done on my own, just verbal guidance), and when I can't reach the site or see it.

[BriOnH]

OMG! Wow, just wow. However, I don't see how this is related to her having a dog. The only time anyone has ever helped me with a site was my first site (and that was still done on my own, just verbal guidance), and when I can't reach the site or see it.

It's related to her dog in repsect to her not having to take the responsibility of sensing / testing her own lows; or her not taking responsibility of putting in her own site.

Taking a dog everywhere with you, similar to like a blind person would (much easier for me to understand why a blind person would do it) just seems like way over kill imo. Relative to other people, they might not see it the same way and that's ok.

[Jill-O]

Maybe I am missing something, but in this day and age of tee-tiny, easy to carry with your meters, why would someone have a dog for this, vs. just tesing if they feel they may be low? Since you do have symptoms as you go low???

[notme]

I don't always feel my lows. Usually I do, but there are those rare times that I don't. Have gone as low as 28 and had no clue. My dog has woken me up for lows in the middle of the night, but he isn't consistant and I wouldn't trust him to do it all of the time.

I want an entourage too!!!! No fair that some people have all the luck.

Really, I can't imagine that someone in their 20's can't change their own site. She must have had some type of problem or issue that made it impossible for her.

If you ever run into her again, we would all be interested to know the story behind her site changes.

[Funnygrl]

It's related to her dog in repsect to her not having to take the responsibility of sensing / testing her own lows; or her not taking responsibility of putting in her own site.

Taking a dog everywhere with you, similar to like a blind person would (much easier for me to understand why a blind person would do it) just seems like way over kill imo. Relative to other people, they might not see it the same way and that's ok.
I would do it in a second if I had a dog that could. I take responsibility for my diabetes, but I just can't feel my lows.

[Funnygrl]

Maybe I am missing something, but in this day and age of tee-tiny, easy to carry with your meters, why would someone have a dog for this, vs. just tesing if they feel they may be low? Since you do have symptoms as you go low???
Because some people don't feel lows, and therefore don't know to test. The dogs can sense it. If I had a dog, I would still test.

[Jill-O]

Thanks :) I did not know some people can't feel it but now that you told me, I think I do remember reading in one of my books that some people can become desensitized to feeling lows over time. Thanks for the information.

[kel4han]

I see what you mean Bri...she must be an attention getter. BUT, I do believe in the low sensing dogs from all the posts I have seen on CWD, here and other places. So when my daughter was diagnosed (our golden was recently put to sleep) we decided to invest in another golden puppy that would be her dog, to sleep with her and bond with her. We certainly would hope she learns to sense changes, we work on that to the best we know how as well. But, we would never rely on the dog, and I still check on her multiple times at night. Helps you feel safe though knowing that we have done everything possible in helping her feel safer and us. Of course we are waiting for Minilink approval as well. :D

[andypoo]

It's related to her dog in repsect to her not having to take the responsibility of sensing / testing her own lows; or her not taking responsibility of putting in her own site.

Taking a dog everywhere with you, similar to like a blind person would (much easier for me to understand why a blind person would do it) just seems like way over kill imo. Relative to other people, they might not see it the same way and that's ok.

When I started taking a new med for my heart,my cardiologist was very cautious about it,due to the fact that it can "mask" the feeling of getting low. They just wanted me to be aware of that fact. But I am so "in tune" to how I feel and how often I test that I've never had a problem such as "not being aware "of lows.Maybe she was taking a med that reacted strongly like that?.

[Funnygrl]

When I started taking a new med for my heart,my cardiologist was very cautious about it,due to the fact that it can "mask" the feeling of getting low. They just wanted me to be aware of that fact. But I am so "in tune" to how I feel and how often I test that I've never had a problem such as "not being aware "of lows.Maybe she was taking a med that reacted strongly like that?.
Was it a beta blocker (generic name ends in "-lol")?