Moderate Low Carb

[mariwood]

I have tried the low carb diet, the no carb diet. I do not get terrific results from them. Furthermore, I feel awful on them. What works for me is a moderate low carb diet. There I will remain. I think my insulin requirements are different as well. I am very insulin resistant. I need to know what works for me and why. Its a long lesson I am still learning. But I find the moderation theory works best because I have a limited budget, I cannot afford expensive food, I need cheaper menus and that means carbs. Yesterday I could not find a package of meat at the supermarket under $6.00. When I follow my diet faithfully my bs are very good and very consistent. It only takes a small mistake or one good cheat and I am right into the 300's. I can go from 106 to 306 in four hours and it only takes a large portion of protein or a small portion of extra carb. I cannot eat perfect every day. I am only human. I hope I can avoid complications that kill or cripple. Who knows? I am just curious to know if anyone else out there uses a moderate approach to carbs?

[Harold]

Been there and done that also, but not for trying to lose weight. Yes a moderate carb, fat, and protien diet is what I strive for. Found that having a veggie for breakfast is difficult. Maybe I should have a glass of tomato juice with breakfast, but should that be counted as a veggie or fruit?:confused: Anyway trying to balance every meal is a real pain and not always practical. So instead I try to balance it over the course of 2 or 3 days. I would not recomend trying it this way for anyone seeing readings of 170 or more frequently. One of those things you can get away with if your in good control.

[DeusXM]

As I've mentioned on this board before, I take a moderate approach to everything I eat. It seems to me that in the messy fight between high-carb and low-carb, everyone seemed to forget normal-carb. I'm a T1 so I guess I've got a lot of flexibility though.

[TAutry]

mariwood,

Let me join the Amen corner.:)

I have found the moderate approach to be the best for me, too. Weight loss isn't an issue for me, but good diabetes control is. I read recently that the recommended daily carbohydrate allowance for a 2000 calorie diet, for a non-diabetic, is 300 carbs per day. I have found that, based on my lifestyle and activity level, about 150-200 carbs works for me.

I agree with Harold. I haven't found a way to include a veggie with breakfast either. I also, don't believe that an exact balance at every meal is necessary.

I firmly believe that by keeping my blood sugar under control, exercising regularly and taking my insulin, I will minimize my risk for complications. I also believe that a similar plan will work for many diabetics, both type 1 and 2.

Travis

[HeatherP]

I never really thought about it, but I guess you could say I follow a relatively moderate-carb meal plan. I don't like to inject a lot of insulin so I try to keep my carbs down.

Bkfst: 26 gms/carbs
L: 15 gms/c
D:average around 40 (but can differ greatly sometimes)

[Willow]

Does it matter if you have a lot of insulin? I mean, when non-diabetics eat a lot of carbs their pancreas produces the insulin they need. So does it make any difference if a diabetic has a lot of insulin & a lot of carbs & keeps bs good? I was just wondering...am not thinking of doing it.

[damianc]

Insulin can be seen as a storage hormone. When you're trying to metabolise a lot of glucose, be it from carbs, protein, or glycogen related, insulin helps store this glucose as glycogen and then fat. Cholesterol is also involved in fat transport, and there appears to be a very strong relationship between insulin levels and cholesterol levels. As insulin resistance increase, cholesterol appears to increase. High insulin levels result in insulin resistance. An analogy would be that cells are simply unable to cope with levels of insulin so stop listening.
My biochem's not so hot, but I wouldn't be surprised to find that insulin is also involved in triggering or working with many other metabolic storage systems which could easily be unbalanced.
All things in moderation applies to insulin also.
Non-diabetics can also be strongly resistant to insulin, it simply doesn't show up in glucose tolerance tests. But if tested for levels of insulin it'll be obvious. I guess they just have bomproof pancreases :)

[mariwood]

I had a great day today. I was able to keep on my moderately constructed carb diet and am still in the process of lowering my overall bs. Today I did not have one reading over 180, for me that is big news. Plus, I had a wasa cracker with my egg and a wasa cracker and banana with tuna for lunch, and pasta for dinner. So this is going to work as long as I really accurately count the carbs and do not go over my limit of 30-30-45. This is doable for me. I did cardio glide today and one long walk before the pasta dinner. When I was low carbing, I would just not be satisfied with the menu. I am getting ready to take my evening Lantus injection and I have been able to reduce that amount.
I am not an expert on insulin, so I cannot answer any questions.
All I know, is a radical diet and strict control with a super low bs is just not possible with my love of food. I would be kidding myself to think I could survive past a few weeks. It's good to know I have company out there. There is a big trend in no carb and low carb, and those people are pioneers in many ways.
But I am always the moderate. I do like to put a limit on carbs when the bs are high for other reasons than meal blunders.
And thats enough suffering for me. To be able to eat normally again is a blessing. I felt like a failure at first, but apparently there is something about my body and my insulin resistance and my insulin response where low carb was not helping much. I just cannot understand it because so many others have big success with it. Maybe more will be studied and understood regarding this national trend. And thank you thank you thank you for all the low carb options available in the supermarket now. God bless Dr. Atkins!

[DeusXM]

Erm....not necessarily true. Whilst insulin plays a role in the storage of fat, it's not as potent as initially believed. Insulin resistance also doesn't particularly feature in T1s who eat a balanced diet and exercise regularly. Insulin resistance DOES occur in T2s, but that's rather obvious - T2 is effectively a disease whereby the individual becomes resistant to insulin, and needs to suppliment their own insulin supply either with OHAs or insulin, or alternatively by going on a restricted diet and high exercise routine. There's a strong relationship between cholesterol and insulin levels, because the majority of people with T2 have high cholesterol levels, which suggests that high cholesterol is a symptom, rather than a cause, of insulin resistance.

A well controlled T1 will put on weight simply because insulin will make you put on fat - see the thread in the Type 1 board. However, this is the same for any individual, diabetic or not. Provided you eat a balanced diet and exercise regularly you shouldn't put on weight - after all, with insulin injections you're simply replacing what your body would be producing anyway - 'a lot' of insulin is the amount of insulin you personally need that causes a hypo, and the amount of insulin required varies according to personal weight, food consumed, exercise performed and personal metabolism.

A diabetic who takes a lot of insulin and a lot of carbs WILL put on weight simply because they're taking in far too many calories - instead of eating to keep their body going, they're actually eating to counteract the insulin, which is completely wrong since you should take insulin to counteract what you eat. In other words, the nonsense about diabetics should stuff themselves with loads of starchy carbs is plain rubbish. An ND who eats loads of carbs will obviously have a pancreas that will produce enough insulin to cover this, but they'll put on weight. This isn't because of the volume of insulin, it's because of the number of calories. It's the same for a D too.

Bottom line - don't inject insulin and then eat an appropriate amount to stop a hypo - work out what you're eating, then take the appropriate amount of insulin to stop a hyper.

[TAutry]

Deus,

You make a good point about calories. Even with all the hype regarding low fat in the 90's and now low carb, here in the US, as a people, we are fatter. Since 1990 the average weight has been going up. A recent article in Men's Health suggests that far too many people are overindulging in supposed low fat, low carb, sugar free and no sugar added foods. Rather than using those foods as part of a well-constructed eating plan, too many of us are using the 'low' as an excuse for gluttony.

No matter what the current hype says, to lose weight one must burn more calories than one ingests. Reduced caloric intake and/or increased physical activity are the only proven methods to do that.

Travis

[HeatherP]

Bummer Travis, but unfortunately you're right (and Deus, too:D )

[mariwood]

This is my thread about moderation in diet. How did it get to be about insulin and weight gain? I am interested in hearing from diabetics that are successful with a moderate carb diet. If you are having success with the ADA diet and a bit of moderation, I am interested in hearing how you tweaked the diet to work for you. I have previously stated that I do 30-30-60 menus and exercise daily. This is the first week for me and so far so good.
My bedtime bs was 123. I have been able to cut my insulin requirements down too! For the past several months I have been going to bed with bs in the 200's! My doctor will be shocked when she reviews my diary! I am a little worried about going low at night, but I have to get over that. Is 123 ok at bedtime? I guess its different for everybody anyways.

[damianc]

I don't believe the glucose/insulin relationship is strictly linear. As body glucose increases there will often be a disproportionate increase in insulin requirements. Agreed, this shouldn't really happen with a balanced calorific intake. Moderation in CHO intake should lessen the chance of even slight insulin resistance.
I don't think we need to make any distinction between T1 T2 and ND here. Insulin resistance CAN occur in any group.

I've only been reducing my CHO intake over the last two months or so, and have not really yet settled into a rhythm in terms of diet. My average reading is about 90 (5 mmol) and I prefer not to let it exceed 6 mmol (108) where possible. I think as time goes by you get to recognise more patterns and are able to fine tune your diet and insulin.
Provided your basal dose is not being used to lower BS you shouldn't risk night time hypos. Ideally a basal insulin should suffice for basal metabolic requirements and no more. Any need to reduce high sugars or to cover meals and snacks is more easily covered with smaller quantities of faster acting insulins.

[DeusXM]

Sorry Mariwood....umm...success story with a moderate-carb diet? Well, I eat what most people would consider a 'normal' diet ie. moderation in everything including carbs.

Last A1C - 6.2
BMI - 20.3
Last major hypo - Um....haven't ever actually had a major hypo.

Sound like success?
Works for me anyway ;)

[TAutry]

Mariwood,

It appears to me that you are making progress. I would consider 123 to be fine at bedtime. Although, last night at around 11, I was at 137. Due to severe thunderstorms my bedtime was delayed and around 12:30 this morning I began to feel 'low'. I tested and it was 64. Why did I drop so? I suspect my body reacted to the extreme weather.

I have had a number of overnight hypos during my 14 years of diabetes. I have never had anything that I consider severe, even with blood sugar in the low 40's. I normally wake up, realize what is happening and take care of it. Like last night, if I am low I find it difficult to go to sleep.

As I have stated in other threads, the moderate diet approach works for me, when combined with regular exercise and my insulin. Have I been successful? I think so. I haven't developed any complications. My last A1c was a 5.9. I normally wake with bs between 80 and 115. When I get a cut, it heals faster than many non-diabetics I know. My overall health is good and I maintain my weight well. Best of all, I feel good, physically and emotionally.

I actually believe that I am in better condition because of diabetes and my approach to it than I would be if I wasn't diabetic. So, as weird as it may sound: I am healthier because of diabetes.

As to your situation, keep at it since it appears to be working. As the cliche goes: 'Rome wasn't built in a day'. Be thankful for small improvements and don't sweat the minor setbacks. Set an overall goal and focus on it.

Keep us posted on your progress. One of the nifty things about Diabetesforums is the non-judgemental, support and encouragement that we offer to each other. We all, to one level or another, are dealing with similar issues. We are here for you.

Travis

[damianc]

Two interesting similarities: I too get the odd bad hypo in the low 40's (particularly if I'm doing strenuous work or something adrenalin related). I end up shaking like a leaf, sweats, all the classic symptoms, but have no problems dealing with it. I'll generally wake up if I reach about 3.5 mmol (63) during the night.
Since keeping my average BG down, I too have noticed that cuts seem to heal much quicker.

[DeusXM]

I too believe that diabetes probably did wonders for my health too. Pre-diagnosis, I didn't exactly have the healthiest of diets, and although I wasn't putting on weight anyway since I was only 14 (and you can pretty much get away with anything at that age), I was starting to develop some bad habits for the future. It's all very well being told that if you eat a lot you'll get fat, but let's be honest, it's not exactly an immediate development. Then I got put on Mixtard and wasn't particularly sure as to what kind of leeway I'd have, and so I stuck rigidly to the doses my doc had told me, and so if I ate a lot it would have an immediate bad effect on my BG, which acted as one **** of a deterrant. 2 months later I started to get cocky and play around with my doses (with very pleasing results), and now I'm on MDI, so high BG isn't really a problem anymore, but whenever I eat I'm always thinking very carefully about how it's going to affect my bg, how many cals are in there etc. Doesn't particualrly stop me eating whatever the **** I like, but having a condition that directly and immediately responds to your diet is certainly a very good incentive to pay more attention.

Obviously every day I wake up and wish I didn't have the big D, but things could be a lot worse.

A lot worse.

[mariwood]

Making progress. Stepped on the scale this morning to see an almost four pound loss. I cannot be happier. Only a couple more pounds and I will be reaching into the 280's instead of 300. This is the answer for me now, less insulin, more walking, moderate carbs. Travis, thank you for the info on lows. I need to know.
Had a low last week and they are particularly bad for me because of my heart arrythmia. I felt like I had been shot thru the head. Speaking of that, I have seen somewheres that low bs can scar the brain as much as cocaine use!

[Jenny]

I absoulutely could not do those low-carb diets cause I need the moderate amount as well. My sister has been doing the Atkins diet and to me it seems too restricive. She has lost about 10 lbs, but seems to fall off of the diet and then has to restart it. I have lost a few more than her just by cutting meal portions down a bit and exercising.

[HeatherP]

Jenny and mariwood: :thumbsup:

[vgray77]

I would consider my diet a moderate carbohydrate one. At my present level of exercise and medication I need to eat 20 to 30 grams of carbohydrates six times a day, three meals and three snacks spread out. I have been reading about the glycemic index and have found that including low GI foods help to keep my readings level.

[mariwood]

Lost another couple of pounds! Long walks really helping with bs in the evening. Cannot believe that I have had rice, baked potato, cereal, and still lost weight! Of course it was portion controlled. I have 1/2 cup of rice, the instant kind, 1/2 baked potato, and two ounces of cereal. What a difference it has made in my outlook to eat normal again. I will never follow the Atkins diet again! It simply is not for me. My stepfather is doing great on it! Everybody is different. He's lost 34 pounds! My cholestrol went up on the Atkins diet because of the red meat. My choices were just too limited. Shopping was great too because now I can buy a small quantity of cheaper foods to supplement the expensive protein selection. I have had much better bs too. I haven't had any in the 200's. Now my next goal is getting every bs under 150, thruout the day. I will be ordering a treadmill for the autumn weather so my walks won't stop because of weather. I cannot walk in the cold due to asthma. The approach of setting goals in a cascading manner, works for me. My first goal was to leave 300 readings behind. Then to get my menu plan and meal time down as habit. Then to leave 200 behind.
I will soon be setting a realistic goal weight. It took weeks, maybe months for this to happen. But you can make slow steady progress and still feel great about yourself. I hope someone else out there who weighs 300 pounds can be helped from this. I am almost 290 now, and when I kiss goodbye to 290, I am promising myself that I will celebrate those ten pounds with something wonderful besides food. Those were the hardest ten pounds to lose. The first ten pounds and the last ten pounds are the hardest I think! Thanks to all of you for your input.

[Shalyndria]

Wow Mariwood, congrats on your continuing success!! :thumbsup: You're an inspiration to everyone!

Shy

[TAutry]

Mariewood,

Congratulations on your success!

As you have learned, it IS possible. Remember the moral from the tortoise and the hare: 'Slow and steady wins the race.' I think your goal-oriented approach is excellent. Keep going and don't look back!;)

Travis

[Willow]

Well done Mariewood & Jenny!

:)

[hermitladee]

Mariwood,

You asked about a moderate carb diet. I'm assuming that my husband is on what you would call a "moderate" diet. He has a max of 130 carbs a day (sometimes lower, maybe 100, but that's as low as he can go without having his bs levels drop too low).

Breakfast - 20, morning snack - 20, lunch - 25, afternoon snack - 20, supper - 25 and bedtime snack - 20. That is our guideline, but sometimes he does not have his afternoon snack, or he might up one of his meals if the meal before it was a little lower. Just a little fudging now and then, nothing drastic.

He doesn't have any weight to lose and is a big (tall) and very active man. The diabetic nurse started him out on 180 a day. But that didn't quite do it. He seems to have better control by having his meals smaller and more often. His 2 hr pp readings are usually in the 75-100 range. He is lucky to be retired and can fit all those meals into his schedule. I can imagine it would be harder for those folks out in the workforce.

He eats what I would consider a balanced menu which includes large amounts of fresh or frozen veggies along with a moderate amount of protein and fruit. When it comes to the fats I usually mix ground turkey with ground hamburger and also do the same with sausage. I use olive oil and stay away from any trans fats. We eat chicken once a week and fish once a week. The rest of the time it's ground meat (usually for lunch), lean beef or pork. We might have to start increasing the fish as his HDL needs to raise up a bit.

[Deager]

Have to put my two cents in here:

Type 1's DO get insulin resistance.

Type 1's should NOT eat and drink whatever they want.

Type 1's SHOULD watch their carbs. Most are eating way too many carbs. I'm not saying to do 30-80 a day. That's not for everyone, but many are doing very well at those levels.

I'm not trying to be a 'know-it'all' here, but I get a little tired of hearing 'I eat and drink whatever I want and then take insulin. It works for me.' It is not good and not healthy. Your A1c test isn't going to show the true picture of what you are doing to yourself unless your blood glucose tests are consistant, whether high, low or normal. If they are going way up and way down.....yeah, you will probably get a 'good' A1c result because the average will be a good number, but it is NOT what is really going on with you.

Ok, off my soapbox. Sorry, but I've been wanting to say that for a long time. :)

Also, haven't seen this posted yet, but the ADA has adjusted their 'normal' glucose numbers (as of January, 2004):

70-100 is normal
90-130 fasting
180 or less 2 hours after eating
100-140 at bedtime

I don't trust the ADA much, but I like these more lenient numbers. I just hope they don't prove to be bogus and cause problems for people down the road.

Diane

[mariwood]

I am 288 now. YEA! Anyways, I've been 288 many times, so its not time to celebrate yet. I am really pleased with the progress I have made and my bs is much better now. I am in love with wasa bread, I use turkey and romaine lettuce chopped up with mustard and layer it on a wasa cracker and drink some sugar free lemonade, homemade, and yum. I am walking when my plantar fascitis permits, and I am doing the best I can. Thank you for all of your support. I will report back when I reach 250. That will be a milestone for me. I suspect I will reach it after my 61 st birthday in October. I tend to slow down in weight loss as time goes, you know the plateau thing kicks in for all of us at some point. The doctor is upping my synthroid to boost my metabolism, we'll see. Have a great summer!

[palefacegirl03]

That's great Mariwood , I wish you continued success!!!!!!!