Best Food Without Carbs

[gobbly2100]

Just a short one,

I love cheese strings because you can pretty much eat them as you wish, they are quite fatty but no carbs/sugar :D

[princesslinda]

I'm an almond or walnut fan....10-12 of them are great snack, supposed with the "good" fats. Also, I like pork rinds.

[notme]

Raw almonds are good and so it celery with peanut butter. Neither are low fat, but good for a snack now and then.

[Cyborg]

Any of the nuts... Jerky, lunch meats, cheeses, smoked fish. The problem is that they contain protein, which also affects bg (http://www.insulin-pumpers.org/howto/pfandbs.html). :vroam:

[Puppypants]

Cyborg, what effect does protein have on blood sugar? I never knew it had an effect - just goes to show how little I know about this disease!

[murphysl]

Coconut spread

[Cyborg]

Cyborg, what effect does protein have on blood sugar? I never knew it had an effect - just goes to show how little I know about this disease!

Protein affects my bg approximately 75% as much as carbs, but at a much slower rate. I calculate the equivalent carbs, 75% of the protein content for me, and bolus with a 3 hour 30/70 combo bolus (30% up front, 70% evenly spread over the 3 hours). Then I bolus separately for any carb content in the meal using an immediate bolus.

If I were on MDI, I would probably bolus for the 30% part of the equivalent carbs bolus added with the regular carb bolus and then deal with any elevated bg later with a correction bolus.

The 75% value is one that was determined by experimentation and I actually started with a 50% value...

[someone]

Are you sure protein can actually raise your BG on its own?

Diabetes Update: Protein, Fat, and the GI (http://www.mendosa.com/diabetes_update_26.htm)
Protein Controversies in Diabetes (http://journal.diabetes.org/diabetesspectrum/00v13n3/pg132.htm)

According to those articles, studies have shown that protein causes absolutely no raise in blood glucose in diabetic and non-diabetic patients. You might want to stop giving out this advice or at least find some research supporting it, because you could be causing some people serious lows. ;)

[GhostRydr]

I've found that i love to have Wasa crackers (http://www.wasa.com) with Laughing Cow (http://www.thelaughingcow.com/lc/lc.nsf/Home?OpenForm) low fat cheese as a snack.

[cheryl]

In Cyborgs defense, there is not much of a rise in protien it seems with a type 2, but for me too, it depends on what I am eating honestly i can get away with one or two eggs, I can get away with only 20 grams of protein per meal, any higher I have to do what cyborg does, like if I eat a slew of chicken oh yea, and cashews oh another one, and three eggs big time.....

I see it in my bloodsugars, hey test it out eat about 50 grams of protien in one sitting and seriously you'll probably see a rise 3 hours later for sure, that is only though if your basal is perfectly set and you didn't over bolus.....if your basal is too high you won't see it at all, i didn't see it till i really pumped cause my lantus was too much.....

Cheryl

[Cyborg]

Are you sure protein can actually raise your BG on its own?

Diabetes Update: Protein, Fat, and the GI (http://www.mendosa.com/diabetes_update_26.htm)
Protein Controversies in Diabetes (http://journal.diabetes.org/diabetesspectrum/00v13n3/pg132.htm)

According to those articles, studies have shown that protein causes absolutely no raise in blood glucose in diabetic and non-diabetic patients. You might want to stop giving out this advice or at least find some research supporting it, because you could be causing some people serious lows. ;)

I'm no doctor, I am simply relating my experiences based on my bg values. What works for me may not work for you. Someone who has some pancreatic function may not notice the effects of protein. Some have found that protein does not affect them. Others eat a higher carb diet and the insulin for the carbs helps cover the protein.

Based on what I've noticed with my own self and with through research, I am convinced protein does have an affect on bg and I do bolus for it. The 30/70 bolus over 3 hours was suggested to me by someone here on the forum and I've found it works well, for me.

[Gary_W]

Are you sure protein can actually raise your BG on its own?

Diabetes Update: Protein, Fat, and the GI (http://www.mendosa.com/diabetes_update_26.htm)
Protein Controversies in Diabetes (http://journal.diabetes.org/diabetesspectrum/00v13n3/pg132.htm)

According to those articles, studies have shown that protein causes absolutely no raise in blood glucose in diabetic and non-diabetic patients. You might want to stop giving out this advice or at least find some research supporting it, because you could be causing some people serious lows. ;)

I know that if I eat a huge steak and a bunch of salad leaves I do need to inject, though it is very slow to raise BG vs carbs in me. It's a lot less predictable than carbs for me. If it's a small amount of protein, no probs. If it is lots, I do need to account for it.

[LancetChick]

Protein is definitely converted to glucose, albeit to a much lesser extent than carbs. The mechanism is very roundabout, hence the long digestion period, and I think most people don't really notice its effect unless they eat a lot of it. I don't need to shoot up for two eggs, but I do for 3 eggs with bacon. Actually, it takes so long to show up that I normally just wait to bolus when I notice my blood sugar rising. Even Regular insulin is too fast for protein digestion in me.

As far as non-carby snacks go, I also like nuts, and walnuts are my absolute favorite. Oddly enough, my nut tins say that a serving has 5g of carb, but I find that no matter how much I eat, I don't need to shoot up. Funny.

[mark-TN]

Are you sure protein can actually raise your BG on its own?

Diabetes Update: Protein, Fat, and the GI (http://www.mendosa.com/diabetes_update_26.htm)
Protein Controversies in Diabetes (http://journal.diabetes.org/diabetesspectrum/00v13n3/pg132.htm)

According to those articles, studies have shown that protein causes absolutely no raise in blood glucose in diabetic and non-diabetic patients. You might want to stop giving out this advice or at least find some research supporting it, because you could be causing some people serious lows. ;)

If you read the article in its entirety you will see that Mendoso just quoted one sentence out of the article, which is very misleading. The following quote from the article tells a different story: (my underline)

Plasma insulin changed little after water, but after protein there was a threefold increase in insulin and a 50% increase in plasma glucagon.

Obviously the tests were done on type 2 subjects with adequate insulin response. The article stated the patients were mild T2 diabetics. T1's with little or no remaining beta cells should see that Protein has an influence on pp BG levels, though I'm sure the degree of this influence will vary some what from person to person. As others have stated the rise in BG from protein will happen much slower than the rise from carbohydrate.

The conversion of protein (amino acids) is called gluconeogenesis (http://web.indstate.edu/thcme/mwking/gluconeogenesis.html) and is a well know biological process. Without it the human race would have been extinct before it even got started.

Mark

[someone]

Did you read the conclusion of the article?

However, in people with well-controlled diabetes, minimal amounts of hepatic glucose are released into the general circulation after the ingestion of protein.

By the way, gluconeogenesis occurs in contrast to glycolysis. Glycolysis is the well known biological process which begins carbohydrate metabolism. With this I would presume that when you are eating a sufficient amount of carbohydrate, gluconeogenesis is not going to occur. According to wikipedia gluconeogenesis occurs only during periods of fasting, starvation, and intense exercise.

[REDLAN]

the second seemed to be a reasonably thorough review of the available research, and seemed to bust some myths, and also showed that the diabetes picture is even less clear...

my reading of the research was as follows there is no direct evidence that in normal individuals that gluconeogenesis occurs to a significant extent - and if it does very little of that glucose will end up in the blood stream - what was it 2g out of 50g of protein

with type 1 and type 2 diabetes protein metabolism is abnormal - these abnormalities can lead to elevated blood glucose levels after eating. However in well controlled individuals the prostprandial response is small. For me the fact that amino acids can cause glucagon release could easily explain postprandial rises and not gluconeogenesis.

In people with type 1 diabetes, the effect of protein on glycemia will be dependent on the state of insulinization and the degree of glycemic control. Protein requires insulin for metabolism, as do carbohydrate and fat, but has minimal effects on blood glucose levels. In well-controlled diabetes, large amounts of protein have the potential to contribute to glucose production, minimally increase blood glucose levels, and require additional small amounts of insulin. If protein is decreased, insulin doses may also need to be decreased. There is limited evidence to suggest that protein contributes to a sustained elevation of blood glucose levels, slows absorption of carbohydrate, or is helpful for the treatment of hypoglycemia.

the small amount of insulin mentioned in the article was 3-4 units - for me that's pretty much a whole meals worth of insulin - i.e. alot of insulin.

Diabetes reacts differently depending on the individual and what works for one may not work for another...

...and if Cyborg says that he gets a BG rise 3-4 hours after eating high protein meals, and has to bolus for them - it's all a moot point as to what caused the rise - the point is that he's found a method that works.

And I don't think that anyone just boluses without testing beforehand.

mind you the article did explain why my BG rises after drinking alcohol, and that will be something to discuss with my educator next week (",)

[Cyborg]

Did you read the conclusion of the article?

However, in people with well-controlled diabetes, minimal amounts of hepatic glucose are released into the general circulation after the ingestion of protein.

By the way, gluconeogenesis occurs in contrast to glycolysis. Glycolysis is the well known biological process which begins carbohydrate metabolism. With this I would presume that when you are eating a sufficient amount of carbohydrate, gluconeogenesis is not going to occur. According to wikipedia gluconeogenesis occurs only during periods of fasting, starvation, and intense exercise.

My diabetes is well controlled. My bg target is 80, which I'm often close to, and my last a1c was 5.7. I found out how protein affects me by eating different kinds. I found that any type of protein has the same effect.

I'd like to see any type 1 or 1.5 (with no pancreatic function) eat a large amount of protein (16 oz steak, 20 chicken wings, etc) and notice the results on their bg. :tomato:

And I don't want to hear that it's due to the CRE! - start eating your celery Brian... :star:

[Mich]

Okay, I'll ring in on this one.

For many years, I used the exchange system to calculate my dose. I was doing MDI at the time. It worked perfectly for me. In the exchange system, you count protein when judging insulin doses.

When I was about to begin pumping, my CDE suggested I begin counting carbs. Now I'm generally pretty quick to catch on, and had many years' experience of watching my intake, but I could not get carb counting per se to work for me.

When I saw Cyborg's first post on the subject, it all fell into place and confirmed what I had found by trial and error. I too, must count at least half of my protein (depends on excercise) and do a seperate extended bolus to cover it.

I guess we are all different, and I must mention that I am a low-carb person, but Cyborg's info was very correct in my case. Mich

[MJB]

To answer the original question....

......Filet Mignon. :D

[mark-TN]

By the way, gluconeogenesis occurs in contrast to glycolysis. Glycolysis is the well known biological process which begins carbohydrate metabolism.

That is correct. More specifically: Gluconeogenesis occurs when the liver senses a low level of serum insulin. Glycolysis (the storage of glucose as glycogen) occurs when insulin levels are high (ie after a meal).

However, in people with well-controlled diabetes, minimal amounts of hepatic glucose are released into the general circulation after the ingestion of protein.

Well you could also say: In people with well-controlled diabetes, minimal amounts of hepatic glucose are released into the general circulation after the ingestion of carbohydrate, or in people with well-controlled diabetes, minimal amounts of hepatic glucose are released into the general circulation at any time. My point is; the conclusion quoted does not say that eating protein has no effect on blood sugar. I guess taken out of context you can read it that way, but when you read the entire article you can not ignore the fact that eating protein raises the level of circulating insulin. So obviously to keep BGs from rising after eating protein either the pancreas has to release insulin, or as in the case of someone with no remaining beta cells like myself, insulin must be injected. It is the adequate insulin level that keeps excess glucose from being released from the liver and helps a person with diabetes to be well controlled.

From the article:
“ In subjects with diabetes who had insulin withheld for 24 hours, there was a three- to fourfold increase in liver glucose output after protein ingestion.19 However, in the presence of insulin, alanine uptake by the liver is virtually zero,20 and hepatic glucose production falls by 85%.21 Indirectly then, insulin could reduce gluconeogenesis in the liver by decreasing the amino acid substrate supply. Insulin also inhibits the degradation of body proteins and lowers the circulating concentration of many amino acids.22”

With this I would presume that when you are eating a sufficient amount of carbohydrate, gluconeogenesis is not going to occur. According to wikipedia gluconeogenesis occurs only during periods of fasting, starvation, and intense exercise.

Gluconeogenesis will occur anytime the liver senses low levels of circulating insulin. (Glucagon is released anytime the pancreas releases insulin, (or thinks it does as in the case of IDDM) like during a meal. Among many other things, glucagon causes the release of glycogen and also stimulates gluconeogenesis. Glucagon is the antagonist of insulin) In a non diabetic a low insulin level is a sign to the liver that blood sugar levels are low and the body needs glucose. In an insulin dependant diabetic it will also occur at low insulin levels, but your BG could be 1000 and the liver will still convert amino acids into glucose until adequate insulin levels are restored. Therefore gluconeogenesis will be prevented with an adequate amount of circulating insulin. This is the case no matter what you eat.

The article quoted states that diabetics that are well controlled do not see a release of glucose from the liver after eating protein. The reason for this is the fact that they either have adequate beta cell function remaining to prevent circulating insulin levels from dropping too low – thus preventing the conversion of amino acids into glucose by the liver or they take the appropriate amount of injected insulin to do the same. In other words it is adequate insulin that keeps excess glucose from being released from the liver during protein metabolism – not the ingestion of protein itself.


Mark

[Mich]

Mark, am I mistaken or is this the "Chinese Food Effect"that Robert Bernstein mentioned? Mich

[someone]

That makes sense Mark, but I was referring to people with well controlled diabetes. I have only once had an a1c above 6.5 and have never noticed a BG rise from protein.