Potatoes not so evil

[Evermont]

I recall specifically getting nutritional advice that "waxy" potatoes are better than "fluffy" potatoes particularly with regard to GI or GL. I also have learned that cooking techniques make a difference. General advice often given to diabetics like "avoid potatoes" is simple and perhaps valuable for that reason, but as usual, simple isn't exactly ideal.

So I went looking ad found this: Glycaemic index of potatoes: myth and reality from a European perspective (http://journals.cambridge.org/download.php?file=%2FBJN%2FBJN94_06%2FS00071145050 02837a.pdf&code=3d592f6bc8972a6dd36eebf438633b36)

I like new potatoes better than other kinds anyway, and I like to put them in soups so I'm glad to find validation for this kind of distinction. I do believe that diabetic individuals vary with respect to how our BGs are affected by certain foods, but I'm starting to think that a lot of these variations (not all) may be attributable to things like fruit or vegetable varieties, ripeness, preparation, etc.

[cheryl]

I honestly believe that it depends on the person, and their diet choices. I have no problem with potato's I eat them mashed....of course I am a type 1 diabetic, but their are still some things that I just cannot eat that do not agree with the bg's at all, like milk...if i started to add milk back in my diet the blood sugars go up....some people handle that well, but then on the other hand, I can actually drink soda if I really really want to....go figure that one out LOL......but a even taste of a brownie kills me.....I can eat loads of fruit and veggies, but banana's don't like me at all...or orange juice....it's sad when I can eat over 100 or something carbs and do well, but eat small amount of carbs and go wacky....if I eat under 20 carbs, and try to dose for that, I cannot get that down.....body get mad i guess....

I think everyone is different, my dad is a type 2, and I have tested him tons when he eats, the so-called no no foods, and the only thing so far that remotely spikes him bad is chinese food.....anything else like potato chips and stuff like that, the highest i have seen him go is 140....it is odd.....I really think it depends on your activity too, if your not an active person...or your overweight, your toleration and blood sugars are probably going to be affected worse with more carbs you eat then, if your busy busy....

But that is cool that you can handle potato's....

Cheryl

[Evermont]

...But that is cool that you can handle potato's...

I agree with you, but it's not all about me!

Sure, it's cool that I can handle potatoes. My point though was really that MANY diabetics may be able to handle potatoes. More of us than we realize. It's just that often we are reaching for the wrong type of potato, or preparing it in ways that are not the best.

If you're a diabetic who liked potatoes and quit eating them all together... there is a glimmer of hope here. Take another look with this new information in mind.

More importantly, this is just one example of a principle that has implications on many other foods beyond potatoes. That's really my point.

Take wheat for example. Wheat grains aren't so bad until you strip off the bran and germ and then pulverize it into ridiculously fine particles with tremendous surface area (refined wheat flour) which turns it into a thermonuclear hyperglycemic gut bomb! This happens because all that new surface area is now subject to simultaneous enzymatic digestion. Take the very same wheat grains, prepare them differently and they are much more BG friendly.

I'm suggesting that we replace advice like "don't eat white foods" or "eliminate rice and potatoes" with more useful advice like what varieties are better and how to prepare them.

[rzrbks]

I'm suggesting that we replace advice like "don't eat white foods" or "eliminate rice and potatoes" with more useful advice like what varieties are better and how to prepare them.

Diabetes is such a personal thing that it's very difficult to Generalize any aspect of the "Wunnerful, Wunerful disease EXCEPT, we're all different and what works for you might not work for me

and

"all that you know about you and Diabetes is subject to change without warning"

But I do agree with the idea that each of us needs to attempt to vary our diets and continually check to find out what IS and ISN"T acceptable to our systems at that point in time.

[Kubilee]

I am SUCH a potato freak that I could possibly eat them with every meal and not even think about it, so when I found out I have Diabetes and they said no more potatoes, THAT part really bothered me. So I set out to experiment with them and each time I ate them in a different way, I'd test and I was told I could eat new potatoes as they have less, more immature starches in them. After a little while, I ran out of the new ones and was dying for a baked potato and ate it anyway just knowing my numbers would suffer for it. Surprisingly my numbers didn't go up at all and I didn't get it.

My sister in law is a registered Dietician and she told me why...... I love green veggies more than anything too and when I eat potatoes, I usually have Broccoli, Brussel Sprouts or something like that with them..... turns out, the green veggies were helping combat the potatoes by slowing down the digestive processes...... so I CAN eat potatoes in any way, shape or form, I just make sure I eat something green with them...... lol

Take away anything I eat and I won't complain, but my popcorn and my potatoes and we have serious issues. lol

[Harold]

The link comes up file not found. What does it say about raw potatoes.

[Evermont]

The link comes up file not found. What does it say about raw potatoes.

Aha - the old discombabulated link trick. I searched the PDF, no mention of "raw". I can access it by google of the exact title and follow the second hit - but that's a moving target.

Try this link: journals.cambridge.org/production/action/cjoGetFulltext?fulltextid=924176 (http://journals.cambridge.org/production/action/cjoGetFulltext?fulltextid=924176)

[Harold]

That link worked, but the file is only on cooked potatoes.

[BlueSky]

That link worked, but the file is only on cooked potatoes.
Raw potatoes makes you sick. Cooking them destroys a toxic alkaloid and makes potatoes edible. To me, this is a good enough reason not to eat it. If we can't enjoy a food in its natural state, we shouldn't be eating it in the first place. There is no coincidence in the association between cooked/processed food and modern day health problems.

My view is, if you really want to eat food that is good for you, messing around with potatoes, grains, rice etc is a wate of time. Ultimately, all carbohydrates are the same in that their metabolism requires insulin. The only differences between them is the speed with which they raise blood glucose. And finding ways to minimise the blood glucose raising effect is a bit like re-arranging the furniture while the ship sinks. ;)

[xMenace]

There is no coincidence in the association between cooked/processed food and modern day health problems.

I definitely agree on this part. I've found that bread I make behaves and tastes much better than any store-bought bread. I'm now looking for other ways to control my intake. I don't even want to think about the hydrogenated fats, salt, corn syrup, preservatives, and whatever else gets into processed foods.

I don't know whether I agree about not eating potatoes, rice, and grains though. Can you give me a link to a comprehensive discussion?

[Harold]

Raw potatoes makes you sick. Cooking them destroys a toxic alkaloid and makes potatoes edible. Never heard this before, could it be something with the type of potatoe or where it is grown at. I've eaten lots of raw potatoes and they never made me sick.

[Evermont]

Raw potatoes makes you sick. Cooking them destroys a toxic alkaloid and makes potatoes edible. To me, this is a good enough reason not to eat it. If we can't enjoy a food in its natural state, we shouldn't be eating it in the first place. There is no coincidence in the association between cooked/processed food and modern day health problems.

My view is, if you really want to eat food that is good for you, messing around with potatoes, grains, rice etc is a wate of time. Ultimately, all carbohydrates are the same in that their metabolism requires insulin. The only differences between them is the speed with which they raise blood glucose. And finding ways to minimise the blood glucose raising effect is a bit like re-arranging the furniture while the ship sinks. ;)

I'm fascinated by your ideas on this. I'll actually consider eliminating all foods that require cooking. Are there others? Why have I not encountered these ideas before?

I might even agree with your analogy if I had any idea of how re-arranging furniture could actually slow the sinking of the ship. What if a ship takes 120 years to sink - is that a disaster?

[shabbie]

i guess the best way to find out would be to test the same carb content of different foods.

for example~

i compared a tin of potato and leek soup which was 30grams carbs
and a tin of chicken and veg soup also 30 grams carbs.

i always spike up after the leek and potato but not after the chicken and veg.

so GI and GL certainly has a lot to do with how we react to certain foods.

i can only eat around 20 grams worth of new potatoes in any dish in order for me not to spike afterwards, and the potatoes always will be served with other veggies and/or beans as a meal/soup so that the effect slows up.

ive managed to find cunning ways to replace the white goods on my plate without compromising the quality of a meal.
eating cauliflower/butternut squash for instance are much better for me.

[HelenM]

Evremont, I was never told that potatoes were evil for diabetics . I was from the start told by the dietician to eat regular, balanced meals with the emphasis on non processed carbs (preferably lower gi) and vegetables together with much smaller portions of proteins and fats preferably divided beween regular meals. I find that if I follow this advice (+exercise) my BS remain stable and at non diabetic levels.
I eat white potatoes, some white rice, lower gi basmati but even better a mixture of basmati wild and wholegrain and (less often) some white pasta ( fresh pastas tend to be higher gi so have reverted to dried) . At home I weigh portions since it is very easy particularly with rice and pasta to go from an acceptable, normal portion to an over large (for anybody) portion.
I have often seen conventional dieticians advice scorned (and as I take insulin some type 2s would suggest that this wouldn't work for them) For me it works, it also appeared to work for the out of control type 2s who were in the ward alongside me when I was first diagnosed and who received similar meals. (in France there is far more likelihood of intervention for 'therapeutic education)
I regularly eat 200-250 grams(40-45gm carb) of boiled small new potatoes together with a large salad or two or three different veg at main meals and rarely have high post prandial readings. On the odd occcasion if I eat the roughly same amount of carbs (and thus the same amount of insulin) but in overprocessed high GI form my BS will spike either very quickly or worse dip low and rise later because of the delaying action of the fat it was cooked in. As a result if I have potatoes as chips (fries?) I have to eat a far smaller amount of carbs and round grain such as in a risotto I find necessary to avoid
But we are all different!

[BlueSky]

... I don't know whether I agree about not eating potatoes, rice, and grains though. Can you give me a link to a comprehensive discussion?
It is part of the paleolithic diet idea that our genes havent been coded for for foods our paleolithic ancestors weren't exposed to. Grains, beans and potatoes contain antinutrients, which is why they need to be cooked. While cooking them makes these foods edible, the antinutrients are not entirely destroyed. And making these foods a major part of the diet is thought to lead to some of the big health issues, especially autoimmune diseases. There is a lot of very technical info around about it, but here is an accessible explanation of how it works. BTW, "GBP" stands for "Grains, Beans and Potatoes", which are the the most important antinutrient containing foods. Harold and Kieth, this should answer your questions too ;) .

Consider our friend, the apple. When an animal eats an apple, it profits by getting a meal. It swallows the seeds and then deposits them in a pile of dung. With some luck a new apple tree might grow, and so the apple tree has also profited from the arrangement. In nature as in finance, it is good business when both parties make profit happily. Consider what would happen if the animal were greedy and decided to eat the few extra calories contained within the apple seeds- then there would be no new apple tree to continue on the good work. So, to stop this from happening, the apple seeds contain toxins that have multiple effects:

* firstly, they taste bad- discouraging the animal from chewing them

* secondly some toxins are enzyme blockers that bind up predators digestive enzymes- these also act as "preservatives" freezing the apple seed enzymes until sprouting- Upon sprouting of the seed, many of these enzyme blockers disappear.

* thirdly, they contain lectins- these are toxic proteins which have numerous effects. They act as natural pesticides and are also toxic to a range of other species including bacteria, insects, worms, rodents and other predators including humans .

Of course, the apple has other defenses- to start with it is high above the ground well out of reach of casual predators, and it also has the skin and flesh of the apple to be penetrated first. Above all though is the need to stop the seed from being eaten, so that new apple trees may grow.

Now, please consider the humble grain. Once again as a seed its duty is mission critical- it must perpetuate the life cycle of the plant. It is however much closer to the ground, on the tip of a grass stalk. It is within easy reach of any predator strolling by. It contains a good source of energy, like a booster rocket for the new plant as it grows. The grain is full of energy and in a vulnerable position. It was "expensive" for the plant to produce. It is an attractive meal. Its shell offers little protection. Therefore, it has been loaded with toxic proteins to discourage predators- grains are full of enzyme blockers and lectins. You may be surprised to learn that uncooked flour is very toxic- please don't try eating it as you become very sick. And yes, I don't recommend al dente pasta (if one must eat pasta at all).

Beans too are full of enzyme blockers and lectins. Potatoes contain enzyme blockers, lectins and another family of toxins called glycoalkaloids. Glycoalkaloids (GA) unlike lectins and enzyme blockers aren't destroyed by cooking, even deep-frying. GA are particularly high in green or injured potatoes, which must never be eaten even if trimmed heavily and well-cooked. Many people have told me that they eat small amounts of raw potato- this is a dangerous habit and it should be discouraged very strongly.

These toxins in foods are commonly referred to as antinutrients. Let's learn some more about them:

Enzyme Blockers: These enzyme blockers are abundant in all seeds including grains and beans, and also in potatoes, serving to hold them in suspended animation and also acting as pesticides. Most commonly they block the enzymes that digest protein (proteases), and are called "protease inhibitors". They can affect the stomach protease enzyme "pepsin", and the small intestine protease enzymes "trypsin" and "chymotrypsin". These small intestine enzymes are made by the pancreas (it does a lot of other important things besides making insulin). Some enzyme blockers affect the enzymes that digest starch (amylase) and are called "amylase inhibitors".

When GBP are cooked, most of the enzyme blockers are destroyed, but some are not. In human volunteers and in animal experiments high levels of protease inhibitors lead to increased secretion of digestive enzymes by the pancreas. This is because the body can sense that the enzymes have been knocked out and orders to pancreas to make more. Even if the effect of GBP based foods is only a small increase in pancreatic enzyme secretion, over many years it all adds up to a lot of extra work.

They are effective poisons- rats cannot gain weight if they have substantial amounts of enzyme blockers in the diet. As far as their preservative action is concerned, I need only to remind you that the potted grains in the tombs of the Egyptian pharaohs were still viable and sprouted after thousands of years locked away.

Grain eating birds have evolved digestive enzymes that are resistant to grain protease inhibitors. Lectins (Haemagglutins)................ Meet Hannibal

Lectins are natural proteins that have a large variety of roles. They are amongst the most

fascinating and stimulating of all biological compounds, and I have no doubt that they play a major role in many "unexplained " diseases. I think of them as "Hannibal Lectins" as they remind of the devious criminal mastermind in the shock horror movie "Silence of the Lambs.' Lectins are like master code-breakers. The cells of our bodies are studded with receptors which are like code pads to ensure stimulation only under the correct circumstances. Lectins have the ability to crack these codes and stimulate the receptors causing a variety of responses- covering basically the full repertoire of the cell and even tricking the cell into doing things it normally cannot do.

They also have a knack for bypassing our defenses and "getting behind the lines", and then they can travel all over the body causing harm. They can, for example:

--strip protective mucus off tissues,

--damage the cells lining the small intestine- disrupting the microscopic fingers called villi and microvilli,

--get swallowed whole by the small intestine cells ("pinocytosis")

--bind to cells including blood cells causing a clot to form (hence they were initially called "haemagglutins")

--make a cell act as if it has been stimulated by a hormone-

--stimulate a cell to secrete a hormone

--promote cell division at the wrong time

--cause gowth or shrinkage of lymphatic tissue ("outposts" of white blood cells)

--cause enlargement of the pancreas

--cause cells to present codes (HLA's) that they normally should not use

--cause cell death (apoptosis)

Lectins break down the surface of the small intestine, stripping it of mucus and causing the cells to become irregular and leaky. Some lectins make cells act as if they have been stimulated by insulin. Others cause the pancreas to release insulin. Others cause immune cells to divide in the wrong way, causing growth of some white blood cells and breaking down the control of the immune system. Others cause cells to present the wrong codes (HLA's) on their surface, tricking the immune system into thinking that intruders have been found and activating the immune system inappropriately- thus leading to "autoimmune disease" where the body's tissues are attacked by its own immune system.

Autoimmune diseases are incredibly common and increase every year that a person gets older. A disordered immune system also has a much harder job recognizing and attacking the real intruders- invading germs and cancer cells (you may have heard that scientists think that most people generate many cancer cells in a life time but that the immune system cleans most of them up).

It is not known whether lectins can cause cancer- this is one of the most important questions in medicine today. They certainly affect colon cells in the test tube. I feel that they are likely candidates as they can stimulate abnormal cell growth and they also cause disorder in the immune system.

Lectins have many other roles besides defending seeds. For example in beans, lectins act like a glue to enable nitrogen-fixing bacteria to bind to the roots of the plant. Many important lectin families are found in animal tissues, but as we are carnivores, we have evolved to be able to deal with these- just as birds that live on grains have evolved to be resistant to grain lectins.

It is ironic that the lectins were discovered more than 100 years ago and yet so many questions remain unanswered- the same was true of the immune system until the 1980’s. I hope that there is more research done into lectins as they hold a whole world of disease mechanisms of which most of the medical community is blissfully unaware.

Exorphins:

Exorphins are food chemicals that have morphine-like activity. They are found in dairy products and wheat. Our body has its own natural morphine like substances that are called endorphins. Endorphins work by stimulating a type of nerve cell surface receptor called endorphin receptors. Endorphins are very important in controlling pain and addictive behaviour.

Exorphins also act on endorphin receptors and may stimulate them or block them. It is logical that exorphins may therefore affect chronic pain and also affect addictive behaviour.

INTRODUCTION TO THE PALEOLITHIC DIET (http://www.earth360.com/diet_paleodiet_balzer.html)

[Alice]

I hate to over analyze carbs...I find if I truly measure out "true" carb servings (we all hate doing this, don't we?) and take the bolus of insulin required...sometimes increased, I come out ok.

There are too many generalizing comments about "bad carbs" that have left me in the "low mode"...when over analyzing. Yes, eating a balanced diet helps slow the digesting down ...protein, fat & carbs combined. Things like this should be normal anyway.

Has anyone actually measure out 1 carb serving of mashed potatoes? It is little more than a large spoonful. Most restaurants and loving mom's put about a cup on the plate. I could see where this is a problem. Definitely a problem in the US with pasta servings...and rice servings.

I find potatoes pretty easy to handle. I've never been told to stay away from them.

[cheryl]

But we are not pathelotic anymore, it's just like people skin changing colors as the years went on, the more north people went the lighter their skin became, the more west someone went, the more slanted their eyes have become...obviously our digestive tracks, have to work somewhat the same way...

I see no harm in cooking food. That is my opinion....If it's grown from the ground, I guess it is meant to be ate, and if you want to cook a potato, cook a potato....the point really is to see what foods do to the blood sugar...and well if it don't spike it to bad, then eat and enjoy...LOL....it's not like we are talking about a triple fudge brownie with a honey bun, greasy lard french fries, or a extra large blizzard from dairy queen...it's just an innocent potato....LOL.....I can see talking about processed foods, but my goodness now their is anti about food grown from the ground....you just can't really eat anymore can anyone....just nuts berries and veggies....all raw....grown in your own yard cause of pestisides, packaging, and god knows whatever else....

Cheryl

[Gabby123]

I am type 2 and don't have a problem eating baked potatoes but can't eat pasta. I don't get it but it's true.

[princesslinda]

I am type 2 and don't have a problem eating baked potatoes but can't eat pasta. I don't get it but it's true.

Sometimes there is no rhyme or reason to diabetes. I can eat a small baked potato or 1/2 of a regular potato (as long as I have a protein with it). I don't have it often, as i'm not a HUGE baked potato fan....i'd rather have the deep fried ones from McDonald's...so I just resist.

I, too, have difficulty with pasta (other than Dreamfield's)...and can't have even a small portion of white rice without a BIG spike, even with protein.

Guess it really is YMMV (your mileage may vary) where foods are concerned.

[Gary_W]

Raw potatoes makes you sick. Cooking them destroys a toxic alkaloid and makes potatoes edible. To me, this is a good enough reason not to eat it. If we can't enjoy a food in its natural state, we shouldn't be eating it in the first place. There is no coincidence in the association between cooked/processed food and modern day health problems.

My view is, if you really want to eat food that is good for you, messing around with potatoes, grains, rice etc is a wate of time. Ultimately, all carbohydrates are the same in that their metabolism requires insulin. The only differences between them is the speed with which they raise blood glucose. And finding ways to minimise the blood glucose raising effect is a bit like re-arranging the furniture while the ship sinks. ;)


Your statement that 'if you can't enjoy food in its natural state, you shouldn't be eating it' is a little on the sweeping side. By the same logic, you'd leave the vast majority of meat alone or suffer a whole bunch more food poisoning than you currently do.

There is a huge chunk of the world that has rice at the centre of its diet and has done for an awfully long time. Most of them live for a lot longer than your average caveman.

As ever, all things in moderation is key. If a person gets a specific problem with a specific food then they know to either leave it out of their diet or suffer the consequences. If I over-indulge in protein as opposed to carbs I tend to run very high the next day and have a much harder job controlling the BG than I would have if I'd eaten a huge plate of weighed-out mashed potato and bolused for it. Which, with the Apidra, will not spike me too badly at all...

XMenace - there is a chap over here that has written a couple of books on traditional breadmaking methods. I don't have either, but I've seen him speaking on TV a few times and intend buying his book Amazon.co.uk: BREAD MATTERS: The State of Modern Bread and a Definitive Guide to Baking Your Own: Books: Andrew Whitley (http://www.amazon.co.uk/BREAD-MATTERS-Modern-Definitive-Baking/dp/0007203748/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199488363&sr=1-3) . He claims that a lot of people that claim gluten intollerance would be fine with home made bread with stone ground flour and slow rising processes as opposed to highly processed shop-bought bread. Can't say how true it is, but I know I feel much better about bread when I know it contains flour, yeast, salt and water as opposed to 53 other ingredients to give it a 7 day shelf life... Yes, my stuff is hard as a rock inside two days but that's what a bread and butter pudding recipe is for :)

On top of anything else, home made food is just so much nicer. For the record I just finished off the blueberry muffins that I made a couple of days ago. Again, no spikes. Minimal sugar added, I can bolus for them and tollerate them very well indeed.

Gary

[cheryl]

That is so true.....I can eat 100-150 carbs for a festive meal all homeade, and do better bg wise then going out to a resteraunt and eating half of the carbs in one sitting.....but then again I do good on chicken nuggets fast food also:confused: LOL.....

Cheryl