Unlimited Carbs

[Jamison]

My endocrinologist said that I could eat an unlimited amount of carbs as long as I take insulin for it. My dad says thats not true, its bad for you in the long run. Who is right? I agree with the endocrinologist because, well she is a doctor and my dad is stupid.


Btw, I was bored so i just made this
http://i27.tinypic.com/oed15.jpg

[gettingby]

Unlimited carbs, in the long run, can cause weight gain.

[Jan B]

Hi Jamison,

I agree more with your dad. The doctor isn't giving people much credit for having self control and being able to make smart decisions. Too many carbs and chasing them with insulin just isn't too smart I don't think.

[Schlep]

IMO - Watch your carbs to control weight and sugar. But then I am probably your dads age so I am stupid also.

[Jamison]

Thanks guys, but I think I should mention that I have been doing calisthenics (working out, i think i spelled that right) for the past 2 years every day trying to put on weight. I am not concerned about getting fat, because I am using all the carbs for muscle. My main concern is the long term effects. My dad's reasoning is that the higher carb intake is, the greater the insulin resistance and the higher my blood sugar is in that period of time after I eat before the insulin kicks in. Nobody said anything about my drawing :( Just kidding, i know it sucks, i did it in 12 seconds.

[wiseguy]

You are assuming that the doctor is smarter than your father just because she's a doctor. Big mistake! Your doctor is stupidly suggesting that you can eat all of whatever you want and just make up for it with more insulin. This is wrong on so many levels. Listen to your dad.

[Holly]

Listen to your Dad - he's the one with the invested interest in your well-being.

[Jamison]

Okay, but what is your reasoning? Does it affect my health in the long run? Does it affect my blood sugar in the short term/long term? Just do not tell me that I could gain weight.

[Gordonm]

Yes it will spike your blood sugar and do this over the course of years and your A1Cs will be elevated and cause complications. If you eat say 150 carbs of a high glycemic foods your blood sugar could spike up to 300+ easily. Yes you can bring it down with insulin butthis is not the way to have good control. You want to maintain a healthy level of blood sugar at all times. The up and down is not the way to control diabetes. Get to a nutrionist and have them set out a diet for you. Tell them you want ot put some weight on. This way you will put on "good" weight and not just fat from over eating.

[Jan B]

I do like your drawing! The steadier your bgs are, the healthier you are. Meaning fewer problems in the future (most likely). Your dad is right in that the insulin is slower to react in your body than the bg rise caused by most carbs. That's what I meant by the insulin chasing the carbs.

Right now, I'm reading Dr. Bernstein's Diabetes Solution. He tells of being a scrawny 115 lb young man who couldn't gain weight and muscle mass until he cut out all the carbs his doctor was approving, and started eating more protein, fat, and going very low on the carbs. I'm having to open my mind way up for this . . . for a long time, I'd been mostly vegetarian, extremely low fat, and plenty of complex carbs. I've also had a lot of fluctuating blood sugars.

[Jamison]

I do like your drawing! The steadier your bgs are, the healthier you are. Meaning fewer problems in the future (most likely). Your dad is right in that the insulin is slower to react in your body than the bg rise caused by most carbs. That's what I meant by the insulin chasing the carbs.

Right now, I'm reading Dr. Bernstein's Diabetes Solution. He tells of being a scrawny 115 lb young man who couldn't gain weight and muscle mass until he cut out all the carbs his doctor was approving, and started eating more protein, fat, and going very low on the carbs. I'm having to open my mind way up for this . . . for a long time, I'd been mostly vegetarian, extremely low fat, and plenty of complex carbs. I've also had a lot of fluctuating blood sugars.




Oh my gosh, me too. I have been a vegetarian since 3rd grade so it has been about 10 years. The only problem was when I was diagnosed with diabetes, there was nothing left to eat :-(. When i found out meat had almost no carbs, I was definitely going to start eating meat again. I have found eating protein is great for body-building. My question is, How many carbs is low carbs? And do i even have to eat carbs?

[Alice]

I can see where your doctor is coming from...she is assuming you are making "normal" carb choices and truthfully, if you know your carb ratio and are taking you insulin in the proper amounts at the proper time...you can do very well with "unlimited" carbs meaning you don't have to be restricted.

This has worked well for me ever since Humalog came along and truthfully, I needed the carbs on the older insulins.

Having said that, I think our list members have mentioned that carbs are calories...like anything else. You may be a young athlete that needs extra calories...or more than me at age 49! You may be in great shape...or you may need to lose a few...it's hard for anyone to say.

I fear that your father is basing his belief on old insulins and previous...rather unsuccessful...methods of diet control for diabetics.

It is of major importance that your dad understand the difference in Type I/insulin and Type II/diet controlled. Those people do need to restrict carbs and may later choose/need insulin.

So...just my opinion. I really don't restrict carbs. If I eat sweets, I choose my timing and watch my portions. But I ALWAYS know what my blood glucose is running and what insulin I need to cover those carbs. Sometimes I end up low...by overestimating what those carbs will actually do to my numbers...so you have to know yourself well...

Tell your dad I've had diabetes for 42-43 years...the insulin ratio is the key to carbs. Depending on your age and activity, you won't necessarily gain weight if watching overall nutrition and calories.

[Dan Gato]

Hi,

Carbs are different for type I, & II's.

For me I control my bg's by eating low carb.

If you eat a lot of carbs you're going to take more insulin.
so, if you want to reduce your insulin, you may have to reduce the carbs.

What was your latest A1C?

[xMenace]

Yes you can cover all the carbs you want to eat with insulin. Yes too many carbs are bad for you. They are both true and almost mutually exclusive statements. Your dad is also right in that the more carbs you eat, the harder it is to get the insulin correct. Your chances of highs and lows increases. You will also have a very difficult if not impossible task of getting your 2hr pp's down. I can't do it at breakfast, but I can sometimes at other meals.

[Gary_W]

I work with doctors most days and obviously see them for my diabetes needs. Most fail to realise that their casual comment can be taken to an extreme by a patient, as some patients will do 100% of what a doctor says. On some occasions, doctors make it up as they go along as much as the rest of us...

Being type 1, you can theoretically cover all of the carbs you wish to with insulin. What needs to be kept in mind is that the more carbs you eat, the more insulin you need and the more room for errors. Also, in most people, a huge amount of carbs in one sitting will spike your BG, so it's hard to get your 2 hour post prandial level down to a reasonable number. Some T1's restrict carb levels for this reason. Others do fine. Experimentation will show which camp you fall into, and be aware that things change over time

So if you are happy with the weight and your numbers are fine, you can eat carbs. Personally, I eat around 200-240g per day. For my weight, this is far less than the recommended amount (dieticians who don't subscribe to low carb eating would recommend that I eat around 300g) but it is an amount that generally suits me in terms of control, weight and variety of diet.

Gary

[Jamison]

I don't know what an A1C is :( If you tell me, I can tell you;)

[Gary_W]

I don't know what an A1C is :( If you tell me, I can tell you;)

This is the blood test that your clinic / doctor does. It is basically a 3 month average of your blood glucose. Not a highly scientific description, but that's how I think of it anyway :) Bit more detail here

Blood glucose levels (http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/health_advice/facts/diabetesbloodsugar.htm)

I don't 100% agree with some of the 'facts' in this article, but it kind of points you in the right direction.

In the UK, the target is to keep your HBA1c below 7.0. Not sure what the target in the US is. Many people on here aim for a 6 if they can manage it. My reasoning for this is the research I mentioned. Research or not, it is generally accepted that the lower your HBA1c, the lower your chances of complications later in life. There are, of course, many other factors but this is one of them.

If you eat loads of carbs, your blood glucose will naturally go up. If you can get it down to a respectable level in a decent timeframe, you can still achieve a decent HBA1c. The problem you have is if you spike to a high number after meals and it stays there for quite some time, you will (a) feel pretty rough and (b) have a higher HBA1c because you blood has, on average, been exposed to more glucose than it would have liked.

Gary

[Stuboy]

I agree with Gary.

If you have the correct ratio, and you know how the particular carbs you are eating affect you, you can pretty much eat what you like... i do. and my levels are pretty steady, i eat bowls of pasta, bread, potatos, pizza, chinese, all sorts of carby foods and i seem to react very well to them.

Everybody is different, there's no harm in experimenting and finding out for yourself as to what works and what doesn't.

I dont think the doctor is saying... "go out and find the carbiest(not a real word!) food you can and eat, eat it all!!!"
It sounds to me as though she is litterally saying... you dont have to be too worried about how many carbs you eat, as long as you can cover it with your insulin.

experiment, test test test, experiment again, test test test and learn from it each time you do. Otherwise you will go through life possibly missing some of your favorite foods, when all you have to do is learn how to manage it.

Good luck!

[Mich]

Hi Jamison,

You doctor probably made the unlimited carbs statement because he knew you worked out. Managing diabetes is a matter of balance of what you eat, exercise and insulin.

While you are young, you can get away with a lot. You are stronger and have more energy naturally. Your daily workouts will cause you to burn carbohydrates, so you will need to eat enough to match your exercise load. You will find the proper insulin dose that does not cause you to go low during workouts.

On days you do not work out, you will need to take more insulin or eat less carbs.

Around 20 or 22, very roughly, you will be finished growing and your carb requirement will be lower. You will need to eat less of them, exercise more. or take more insulin. This is the time when many diabetics gain weight by not adjusting.

There is an excellent book called "Think Like a Pancreas" by Gary Scheiner who himself is a diabetic. Lots of good information in there and a good reference book for you, including how to deal with sports.

Welcome to the forum!

Mich (who is also older than dirt and might also be stupid :T )
But I know a lot about Diabetes.

[Jamison]

Thanks guys. I can't get an A1C test for about another 2 months because I have only had diabetes for 1 month(diagnosed 2/3/08). I am getting a lot of mixed responses so I won't go crazy with carbs but I won't be too picky either.

[Lloyd]

Unlimited carbs ends up with unlimited weight, for most people. There are exceptions, like marathon runners :)

[BlueSky]

Thanks guys. I can't get an A1C test for about another 2 months because I have only had diabetes for 1 month(diagnosed 2/3/08). ...
The date of diagnosis doesn't really make any difference. For the HBA1c test to work, you only need to be 3 or more months old ... ;) .

On the carbs issue, whether you need to restrict them depends on your level of control. This is the level of blood glucose, as reflected by the HBA1c, as well as the volatility of your blood glucose (fluctuations between high and low levels). As you are young, healthy and have only just been diagnosed with T1 diabetes, you will probably be able to achieve satisfactory control without restricting carbs. But be aware that it won't stay like this. As your honeymoon wears off, controlling blood glucose becomes more difficult. And the more carbs you consume, the more difficult it usually becomes. Getting older, in my experience, doesn't help either. So be prepared to modify your eating habits, if and when necessary.

[Evermont]

Oh my gosh, me too. I have been a vegetarian since 3rd grade so it has been about 10 years. The only problem was when I was diagnosed with diabetes, there was nothing left to eat. When i found out meat had almost no carbs, I was definitely going to start eating meat again. I have found eating protein is great for body-building...

Hi Jamison, welcome to DF!

Check my sig, I've been doing this vegetarian thing for quite a long time. 6 months now since my diagnosis (Type 2), I'm having no trouble finding foods to eat and building muscle too. I think it will just take me a bit longer than it would if I were more carnivorous, but then I'm not in a big hurry.

For anyone who knows... I'm curious about the "max carb cover with insulin" idea... I've read that insulin users get burned out on a particular insulin after some time and must then switch to a different type of insulin. Would this happen faster if a person is on the "max carb cover with insulin" program? Would this be a good reason NOT to subscribe to this approach?

[BlueSky]

...... I've read that insulin users get burned out on a particular insulin after some time and must then switch to a different type of insulin. ....
I think this is a relic of the past. With use of the old animal insulins, antibodies developed over time, and the insulin gradually became less effective. This was why it was necessary to change insulins periodically. I remember switching from beef to pork insulin for this reason - I was having to increase my doses substantially.

This doesn't happen with the synthetic insulins as they are pretty much identical to human insulin. And it doesn't matter how carb is eaten, the insulin will work the same. A different problem can arise, though - insulin resistance. But you have this problem regardless of what insulin you use.

[1type2go]

Hey I may PM ya

Heres my story
I've been working out for about 7 years.weight lifting in the gym for an hour at a time (4:pm-5PM )

Eating on average 3000 cals per day and the occasional day of...4520 cals

PB&honey toast, eggs, egg whites, bananas, fruit cups, home made smoothies with protein powder apple sauce, cottage cheese, tin of salmon,whole grain bread, baked potatos two different meals, chicken, yogurt, granola bars...many!!
protein-278g,carbs-442g,fat 150g its really important to keep fat down and fiber up!!! so lots of whole grains,look for low GI foods if you are going for carbs ...you do have to be sensible
cheat day I'd treat myself to chicken strips and fries:D

Donovan..........5'11"ft 188lbs


Hey, stick around!!!

[Jamison]

Hey I may PM ya

Heres my story
I've been working out for about 7 years.weight lifting in the gym for an hour at a time (4:pm-5PM )

Eating on average 3000 cals per day and the occasional day of...4520 cals

PB&honey toast, eggs, egg whites, bananas, fruit cups, home made smoothies with protein powder apple sauce, cottage cheese, tin of salmon,whole grain bread, baked potatos two different meals, chicken, yogurt, granola bars...many!!
protein-278g,carbs-442g,fat 150g its really important to keep fat down and fiber up!!! so lots of whole grains,look for low GI foods if you are going for carbs ...you do have to be sensible
cheat day I'd treat myself to chicken strips and fries:D

Donovan..........5'11"ft 188lbs


Hey, stick around!!!


You sound pretty fit. The past few years I have put on some muscle but I never really made a big breakthrough in strength. I did like 12 sets a day over the summer of working out and I worked up to 4 chin-ups. Before the diabetes, I could do like 2. Ever since a few days ago, I have gotten back up to 3, sometimes 4. This may sound pretty weak but before I started working out, I couldn't even do a push-up.

[1type2go]

Hey I'm the same but i started with push ups (flat and feet up on a bench ) way before I started at a gym, check the weight lifting thread

you could get away with eating anything, if you were not a diabetic (Ecto Morphin)..........5'9" ,145 lbs??? gust a guess.

watch all your fats and keep them good (not saturates)and go nuts.

The gym got me on track forcing me to test and get myself in check .........A1c was 7.6 ten years ago.I'm glad to say I've only been in trouble with BG at the gym two or three times,.
NOT lucky just smart and I was able to take care of my self .

Donovan feel free to PM

[Emm]

Anyone using insulin CAN eat as many carbs as they bloomin' well feel like.

Fact is, carbs raise blood sugar. Insulin can't keep up. You will spike, you may spend a little too much time out of range, and then you can't be sure of where you'll fall down to when the insulin is done. So carb loaded meals are best saved for when you're willing to put in that extra effort to watch your BGs and suffer the highs & lows.

In my opinion, going easy on the carbs is a MUCH nicer way of living!! Especially on days where you want things to go smoothly - say if you're going on a long drive, have an important meeting, a party or whatever. Save the pizza & dessert for the day you plan to blob out at home with your insulin and meter so you can get things in order at your own pace.

You do have to find out what works for you - maybe you could eat more carb before exercise and less at other times? Maybe as a young lad you need more? Maybe not! You'll really have to go with trial and error - just keep your meter handy at all times because that's your best tool for figuring out what works for your body.

[Jamison]

Thanks for the advice! and no, I am 5' 7 1/2'' 130 pounds :-( This is because I got sick (aka diagnosed with diabetes) about a month ago. I never realized that I had it until I was in shock(technically I didn't realize, it was my parents). Anyway, I was at 130 for a while and then started getting thirsty and lost about 15 pounds in a month. Since I got out of the hospital, I put on 15 pounds again (all muscle :-) ) and I keep gaining more every day.

[1type2go]

When i was Dx I was (1990) I was sent on my way with a shot of insulin and told to go buy my insulin and eat !!
So off I went in my standard Honda Civic,shift stick shaking so bad, I didn't notice my own hand shaking so I ran into a drug store holding out a fifty dollar bill and a roll of lifesavers.

Off I went and continued with to high a dose of insulin and eating like it was goin' out'a style

I gained 15 lbs in a month (for me not good! for you thats awsome ,and hope you're back up to normal weight soon, so you can start building) I also lost that 15lbs in one month!
Insulin can work for you if you let it !

Hey and as for pull ups stay there at your bar doing 1 to 3 till you hit 10 in total ,what ever rest needed in between.
This is how I started with push ups and in no time I had accomplished 100 ....many sets!!

awsome technique starting .How are your sugars BGs.
Do you find a little training helps keep or bring them down?


Donovan

[pegasus]

The bottom line seems to be: both your doc and your dad are right, both are giving you shorthand info about things you need to learn a lot about over time. (Your doc may have been saying that as a way of saying, "Don't be afraid of diabetes--diabetics can now eat all the carbs they want!" as compared to the old days, when carbs were severely limited.) On the Pumping thread, John put a post with 4 sites one of which teaches a lot about insulin and metabolism etc, so you can get an idea of what works for your individual needs. Over time, you'll learn how to take in advice and filter what works for you.

Good luck!

ps: Ab1Cs have also been known to measure the previous 6 weeks reasonably well; safe to say it's a way of learning how good your control has been over recent weeks, as opposed to your home readings over the course of a day or two.

[Emm]

Jamison - just checking that you know this: You wont need to try to gain weight, it'll just come back to you now that you're getting your diabetes under control. So you can eat for the sake of your health / blood sugars, and not worry about the weight.

[Jamison]

Really? All right, well my dad and i settled on, why let me be the guinea pig? This was after my brother talked to him (he recently received a PHD in chemical engineering.) My blood sugars have been somewhat normal but baseball season just started and now they are fluctuating. I was too sore today to work out, but I plan to when I am not so sore. My goal is 150 pounds eventually, theres not much hurry.

[1type2go]

Hey Jamison

If you do want to go heavy( think of the Mercedes sign:D
Three equal parts Carbs Protein Veggies for every meal....I know ,I know but try.

Also try eating the same foods(for big carbs) at the same time each day for bulk faze and you'll get to know dose and amounts you can handle.This is especially important after working muscles hard .

If you eat it.It will come:T

[Jamison]

yeah thats what I have been doing. For dinner tonight, I had corn, Lima beans, and an entire 2 pound brisket.

[1type2go]

You may think it's hard to eat like that all the time ...(well I mean not that big of protein) but like the three equal parts but it can be done morning, noon, and night.

Most mornings I have egg whites from a carton (4) then add an egg ,you can break the yolk and gently turn it in the pan (spread the yolk ).Before you have this every morning do chk your cholesterol and keep an eye on it .I have NO problems and often eat two yolks a day!!

Donovan

[Jan B]

yeah thats what I have been doing. For dinner tonight, I had corn, Lima beans, and an entire 2 pound brisket.

Personally, I'd have had only the 2 pounds of brisket -- yum! And some broccoli or spinach - maybe. Maybe I'd have saved a pound for the next day. I can't believe how much I do love meat when not thinking about the animals it came from. I hope you are feeling good Jamison.

[JJM335]

Jamison:

If you are serious about all your sports, this is probably about the BEST thing you can do for your long-term health. However, it will affect your blood sugar levels and you are going to have to learn how to control it, preferably from others in the same situation.

Why not start checking out the Exercise boards on this and other forums. These are the experts.

Joel

[1type2go]

Good on ya...Joel !

Jan How 'bout Chcken breast fried (I butterfly the breast and use spray)in a pan seasoned,then placed on a Large bed of fresh spinach and No not with any sauce or dressing.
I think you know what I like :)