depression and high BGs

[dodo]

Is there a link between depression and having high BGs?

To be honest, I don't know if I am going through depression. I haven't talked to my doctor about it but from what I've heard I think I am. Anyway, I haven't got any BGs lower than 8.5 for the past week. I wake up really high (around 14-15) and I can't find a good explanation except that I am not feeling well. I haven't done anything different...it's frustrating!

[shiftzor]

Yes, I believe it to be so. It’s well known that highs cause mood swings, these can swing in my experience either way, happy or sad, and I think it can be influenced on what is happening at the time. For example if you do a bg test and see that you are high which then might result in a negative mood due to the realisation and consequent annoyance of "messing up". Let’s not forget the constant stress of dealing with your sugar levels and the mourning for loss of health. There are plenty of things to get you down in this world, if you don’t laugh then you will cry :D so might as well keep laughing. ;) Lots of people will help you on this forum just make a post or reply with problems or experiences

Depression and diabetes - Diabetes UK (http://www.diabetes.org.uk/Guide-to-diabetes/Living_with_diabetes/Coping_with_diabetes/Depression_and_diabetes/)

[johgn]

High blood sugar may certainly help cause depression but I think the question here was does depression (or just melancholy) cause higher sugars. I tend to be someone who has highs and lows (I'm happy with that) and I've personally not noticed them really messing with my readings, although I might eat more when I'm blue.

[Stuboy]

are you getting enough basal?

[1type2go]

depression is defiantly coupled with stress for me and sometimes, days before an illness I'll run BGs of 14-17 for no apparent reason

[Subby]

High Blood sugars (as you describe) over a period of time (either to a lesser degree for a few days, or greater degress for a few months)cause for me:
-short term memory loss, such as remembering my phone number
-concentration difficulties, such as following a conversation
-fatigue, mental and physical
-insomnia, sleep does not refresh, nightmares
-physical stiffening through the body leading to headaches and physiological tension
-inability to keep on track, to keep motivated, feeling awash in vagueness
-irritability and loss of mood control
-a tendancy to heighten any stress or depressive mood - periods of blood sugars of generally 14+ (can happen if under intense stress) and can exhibite symptoms of major depression
-Overall, a terrible strain and malaise and lack of energy that is very life-impacting - and very frustrating/depressing in itself!

I have had circumstances of improvement in control, such as moving to a much better control of a pump, where many of these issues including a generally depressed feeling state, clear up within a few days. Energy and healthy and positive feelings return for me with better blood sugar, and the mind, like the body, is under much less burden and is much more resilient to stress, depression, and other issues.

Note that the lower blood sugar has to be for at least 10+ hours for me to notice underlying improvement.

These comments are all based on repeat personal experiences!.I believe there are definitive studies that show the connection but I can't give you any leads there.

Depression cause high blood sugars? Quick answer yes, through stress and a non-functioning lifestyle. A more direct physiological effect I'm not sure. But I am living proof that high blood sugars can either cause, or be a major factor in depressive type symptoms.

Note, others I have met say they get along fine sitting high. Lucky them!

[nicole]

yes there is a link between them.
i suffer from depression and when I'm not on my Zoloft I have extremely high blood sugars. When I am taking my zoloft I have much lower and good blood sugars.
Talk to your doctor about it, they can offer some suggestions.
And good luck with it.

[Olidus]

I can honeslty say a BIG FAT YES to that. I am living proof.
Back before I was DX'd and running extremly high BGs for god knows how long, I was going though a **** load of downs and depression.
At 1st i just thought it was all work - but I have been working in the same place for over 11 years and could not see how all of a suddent work could get to me that way.
I felt empty, like a shell with nothign inside, would zone out all the time.
I truly was going though dpression. This went on for sometime, finally when I went to my doc - and they found out that I was Diabetic supporting an A1C of over 18.

Ever sicne then - been on insulin and have not had any of those feelings.

Its crazy how all this stuff inside us has so many different affects on us.
Everything is linked someway or another.

[dodo]

I expected these answers! As I said, I haven't changed anyhting so, yes I'm getting enough basal...well, I think.

I wnt to see the doctor the other day and he prescribed me some Paxil but I'm not taking them...and I won't. I used to take Paxil and I had a hard time giving up. It made me very sick. I want to try to get back in shape (mentally) by myself. Does anyone have a suggestion? Any crazy ideas are welcome?

[Jan B]

Dominique,

It sounds like you need to start at square one . . . . basal testing. If you aren't sure if your basal needs are correct, you probably need to verify! Dawn Phenomenon can be nasty, and set up the whole day with high readings, which could easily mean a chronic feeling of depression if this cycle never breaks.

I'm currently taking Zoloft, which is great for me. However, I now have better diabetes control and am curious about getting off it. BUT, with heart disease and having been diagnosed w/major depression as a teenager, I'm not sure if I should get off. I've been on and off depression meds for many years.

I wish there was ONE easy answer. You have a beautiful name and your cat is lovely too!

[Subby]

Yes I agree. If you are having some lousy sounding blood sugars regularly it's a mistake to say your basals a ok or fine. Your basals are there to do one thing... give you reasonable BG levels between meals! Anything less and they can hardly be called good!

Sounds like there could be dawn phenomenon kicking in. I suggest you get yourself to do some overnight testing to see what is going in. You probably know how this problem can hike your levels and set you up for a bad day? You could also be getting a rebound from early morning which would also spike your levels.

When you say nothing has happened, what do you mean? Nothing in your routine? Because sadly, many of us find things can change.. for no particular reason we can detect! Things just... change! And we have to try adapt as best we can.

I personally think it may be wise to avoid those meds for a bit (as long as you can cope ok... reassess this if you are really feeling "depressed!"). These could definitely affect your BG further making control even harder! Plus you really will probably feel better if you get your BG down generally. Focus everything on getting your BG down more regularly... then reassess... good luck!

Edit to say: if you found the Paxil were addictive and made you sick, don't touch them with a 10 foot pole! Is your doctor aware of your history? I wonder if he is being sensitive to you and your needs!

[Subby]

Forgot to mention, many doctors, including endocrinologists, will disparage and downplay the debilitating effect that fluctuating and off BG can have! I have found this many times. Perhaps there are some of us more sensitive to it than others. But your out of range BG should remain a top "contender" for making you feel lousy, and I recommend you don't forget that until you have made headway with control and can accept or reject the possibility! This does not exclude other drugs or AD's to help you of course... but until you have had episodes, say a few days or couple weeks, of better control, keep it firmly in mind this could be a major cause.

[BlueSky]

.... I want to try to get back in shape (mentally) by myself. Does anyone have a suggestion? Any crazy ideas are welcome?
I agree with the others that getting a better handle on your control will go a long way in helping you feel better about yourself. So testing basals, improving carb ratios and all that stuff is important. But, as a person, you also need to nurture and care for yourself. My suggestion is that you tell people close to you that you are going on a self-care mission, and actively look for new things to do that will help you feel better about yourself.

Only you will know what those things might be. But for what it is worth, I have decided for similar reasons to start reading fiction again and to get involved in meditation again. These are both good self-care activities that fell by the wayside because life became too hectic.

[Subby]

But for what it is worth, I have decided for similar reasons to start reading fiction again and to get involved in meditation again. These are both good self-care activities that fell by the wayside because life became too hectic.

Two things I want to get back to as well for the same reasons :) I also want to try something new like tai-chi which I have heard such great things about. Regular exercise in general can be so, so important in feeling better about yourself. Even just a shortish walk a day can boost you physically and mentally so much. It is also very important to approach them with a light, easy fun attitude rather than make them a chore or stress, like exercise often becomes for people.

It would be good to share knowledge and ideas about these "good self-care activities".

[davef]

Dominique,

Being type 2 on metformin, I can't offer advice on Basal etc., I can say that when my numbers go high even for a short time I get irritable, I know I'm irritable and then get frustrated for not getting the numbers down and then get down about the whole f'in thing.

While I can't offer advice, I can offer my support.

In relation to "good self-care activities" mentioned by Bluesky and Subby, I read a lot, I can't actually go to sleep unless I read at least a page of a book, it's kind of like my off switch. During my waking hours, for relaxation, my passion would be photography but enjoy music and love to cook.

[JediSurfer]

High bg's definately send me to a dark, dark place. Fell like the worlds against me for absolutely no reason at all, just wanna give up hope and can't see the good things in life. For me the link is definately there. Sometimes Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde is how i feel.

[Subby]

High bg's definately send me to a dark, dark place. Fell like the worlds against me for absolutely no reason at all, just wanna give up hope and can't see the good things in life. For me the link is definately there. Sometimes Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde is how i feel.

Good description of how it feels for me too, if fluctuations and highs are dominating my life.

You know, for a period I was having severe troubles keeping things more even, I had doctors point out to me that I was exhibiting some classic manic depressive, bipolar symptoms. They were strong symptoms,too. I discovered as I gained better control again that they were directly proportional to my high BG. The symptoms flared right up, specifically, the higher I went (say by accidental missing of dose) - in other words, it wasn't depression causing the bg levels directly - more the other way around.

Now, it may be that the BG brought out existing tendencies, or created the effects on their own. I don't know. I do know this dark, Jekyll/Hyde cloud cleared right up and stability returned like touching down on earth, when my sugars were returned to better levels. Of course in the general swing of diabetes I still get touches of those moody effects from time to time, again with imbalance.

[dodo]

High bg's definately send me to a dark, dark place. Fell like the worlds against me for absolutely no reason at all, just wanna give up hope and can't see the good things in life. For me the link is definately there. Sometimes Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde is how i feel.

That is exactly how I feel too!

I've been better the last few days. I woke up around 7 for the last three days but I think the dawn phenomenon could be an explanation. I am testing around 5:00 am and 8:00 am just to see what's happening.

My husband is off this week and he's forcing me to go for a run everyday. That's a start!

[Subby]

Sounds good - but don't overdo the running too quickly! Remember the see saw effect from going low...

It is interesting, this "depression" that bad blood sugars can bring on it is and it isn't. I think high BG's and fluctuations may stress the brain in a similar fashion to depression and does a good mimicry of depression. (And of course the real thing can be there as well, just to completely confuse matters!)

Big part of the problem is, doctors can diagnose depression where in fact you have these BG effects. This happened to me over the years. Now with more stable sugars on a pump, I know without a doubt it was largely my high and fluctuating BG. In the end if there are high BG I think they have to be reduced to acceptable levels, before a clear picture of any residual, shall we say "real" depression including psychological issues, can be revealed. I'm not saying this is easy or even always achievable, just the only way to seperate the causes.

Avoiding daily lows/highs and stretching the time spent with stable sugars... helps so much. I think my body readjusts radically at about the 24 - 32 hour area. Conversely I find that with a few hours of ups and downs it can all start to come back.

[MinimedPumper07]

thanks for this post. this is what i am struggling with right now. i am always 150-250 and feel super depressed, even as i speak...

[MinimedPumper07]

Do you think the same connection can be made with anxiety? The last few months i am always high after meals and such. I went int and cranked up all my ratios and basals and will work my way up slowly.

[Subby]

Hi minimedpumper, it's important you don't quickly conclude this is the source of your depression. Of course any other cause could either be the actual reason, or a simultaneous effect as well. The only way you can determine BG is a major cause is to get it to better levels and see if it improves things!

For me, a return to normal levels for a while and stresses tend to "melt" away psychological pressures, and I feel much more confident and robust in my mind.

I think anxiety could definitely be a another symptom of high BG. After all... you entire brain is being affected, it is not suprising that it exhibits a range of "stressed" symptoms. I wrote a list earlier in the thread of the most obvious effects I get from prolonged highs.

Good to hear you are working on your pump settings - don't forget the good old pumpers around here, there is lots of help to be had if the questions are asked.

[MinimedPumper07]

Ya i got so much going on in my life right now. I will have surgery on my eyes which freaks me out. I am in college so you know how stressful that can be, and having diabetes and having to constantly monitor is no walk in the park...

i can safely say this has been the worst year of my life...

[Subby]

Sorry to hear that.. hoping things get a lot better. You know, slowly, surely is the best way to adjust your dosages and settings, but remember it can be very disheartening if things don't change. They could be quite out so persevere with increasing relentlessly, until you see a different pattern.

Speaking of trying to sort things out though, have you tried fasting periods to determine basals? Basal fasting testings seems to be the best foundation for getting pump settings right, by far. Here's one place it is mentioned http://www.diabetesforums.com/forum/pumping-insulin/21408-basal-test.html#post255606
And the most simple instructions of those links to how to do it,
Integrated Diabetes Services - Diabetes Management (http://www.integrateddiabetes.com/pump_bt.shtml)

[MinimedPumper07]

i have tried that, however it seems like there are so many things that affect my bgs. it seems like every day of the week is different for me. if i am in school i need less bg than when im not and also the amount of stress and daily activities i do affect it as well. i started by doing a basal test but it seems like i would need to do one every other week which i am too lazy to do, so i will just adjust slowly.

[Subby]

Yes, I am similar. My basal requirements shift daily. Like you, I would need to do them every week or so to keep them good, which is untenable (or maybe I am lazy too). I am currently trying to work out a protocol that lets me make decisions with less time and change required.

I have been like this for 15 years now so you can imagine how sick of it I am! The pump improved things a lot, but I still can't trust my body to see things through with ample stability or energy, it really hampers my life.

My conclusions at the moment are to keep working on how to keep tabs with my basal requirements, doing lots of lab blood tests to see if other resistance issues are evident can be helped, and seriously working towards a low carb diet as well as incorporate more exercise for it's stabalizing effects on the BG. Have you considered low carb diet to some degree? It may be an essential part of keeping stable for the likes of us.

[MinimedPumper07]

of course i have considered it but that is easier said than done, lol. especially in school when you walk through cafeterias with sandwhiches and candy and good tasting food everywhere!

[SugarLife]

I have had chronic PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder), with my emotions all over the place, sometimes being on 'red alert' all the time, anxiety and depression. I have found that anxiety and depression definitely influence my BG (also depression without stress or anxiety), and I still have a low when I'm very, very sad for a few mins - and whether you're responding with low or high BG's can differ per person.

Especially emotions like depression or anxiety go together with certain hormons in your brains, anxiety (or sometimes anger, or stress) influences the production of adrenaline, which raises your BG (that's why you have so much adrenaline when you have a hypo, and because your brains will start to function on adrenaline instead of glucose). Depression has to do with the lack of a hormon that your brain produces, that's why going for a walk or a run will sometimes help, because it stimulates your body to make this again.

I have also found that BG's can have effect on your mood - I think all the balances in your body just interlock in some way.

When the depression stays while you are having better BG's, and you don't want to take meds, you may want to consider counselling, so that you don't have to beat it on your own. Someone else often has a clearer view of the situation and can help you face the core problem. There may be waiting lists, so you could start to sort some things out already (different treatments, costs, insurancies, terms like do you have to use meds if you want to get this person's help etc.) and get yourself on a waiting list already - if you find that you don't need it anymore, you can always cancel.

[stupidpancreas]

I've been Type I since Jan '07...and I was doing really well for a long time. When I first went to the doctor my A1C was at 13, I had it down to 6, and now it's back up to 6.5. I don't know if it's the winter weather or what, but I've had some consistently high BG readings, and I feel so sad and unmotivated all the time. I'm ashamed to talk to my friends and use the cursed "depression" word because it seems like no one wants to deal with that. Do you get any feedback from your friends? I've considered asking my doctor about Paxil or something, but I've never taken antidepressants and I feel like you do when it comes to getting better mentally on my own. Whenever I exercise consistently I feel better both mentally and physically. I'll think of some other things that have helped. In a way, it's kind of nice to know that I'm not going crazy, and there are other people experiencing the same challenges I am.

~Chrissy

[Alice]

Even without the depression your glucose numbers are causing you to feel bad...you are "used" to it...so that's compounding the problem.

I just heard this week that another study found that exercise helps cases of mild depression....so maybe adding a little walking to your day will help - in addition to helping lower your glucose numbers.

Good luck and keep us posted.

[Jan B]

I have really enjoyed (for lack of a better word) reading through these posts. Now I just want to cry . . . diabetes, especially when uncontrolled, really does mess with our emotions. During one very hard time in life, I was treated for bipolar . . . turned out it was high anxiety instead . . . then depression on and off -- usually on. Thank you all for bringing all this information up. Need a little cry, then back to bed for some rest so I can wake up happy, like usual these days!

Dominique -- Mentally I feel much better with lots of exercise. Just pick your exercise carefully so you don't hurt yourself . . . that will lead to more depression or anxiety!! I've been overdoing some exercise, so now I have sore shoulders and a sore neck.

[dodo]

It is true that exercise helps a lot! I tried to go for a run the other day (only for 20 min) but I ended up hurting my knee. So I go for walks instead. Anyway I had to paint the house so that helped me feel better and I consider it exercise.

I spent few days with BGs between 4 and 10 but I'm back to high BGs since yesterday. But I'm doing my best...or a least I'm trying! There are so many things I can't explain about diabetes!