An interesting debate

[Psycho Penguin]

My friend who is also a T1, got me thinking tonight.

He says he is not too worried about his BS levels because he does not even WANT to live past the age of 65 or so, since no matter how good your BS levels are, you might end up screwed because of the condition anyways. So why live your life unhappy with the food choices you make and constantly beating yourself day after day, month after month, year after year knowing you might lose a leg in the end anyways?

I don't happen to agree with him, as I'd like my QUALITY of life to be decent until I am 65 and I know if I cheat on my diet and don't regulate I feel like **** all the time and thats no way to live, but he doesn't get that problem so I can see his POV.

Thoughts?

[Gordonm]

You hit the nail on the head by saying quality of life. If he does not care he will feel terrible and probably won't make it past 40 or so if he continues down that road. I see you are 24 and assume your friend is of similar age. At 24 you think you are Superman and nothing can happen to you. I was there and thought the same thing. As you get older you tend to think different. I now have a wife of 20+ years and 2 kids and want to be around for a long time. Hopefully his priorities will change and he will take care of himself.

[shutterbug]

You can get away from loosing a leg after 65 if your blood sugar levels are in the normal range or near normal. Everyone is trying to keep blood sugar numbers close to normal in order to avoid complications. If you are in tight control, you can life a long healthy life!

[Psycho Penguin]

Try telling him that! He thinks we're all doomed no matter what. :) Yes he is 23.

[CarrieB]

Hmm, serious flaw in his argument (well, several serious flaws actually)

He seems to think he can somehow not take much care at the moment, live a (from his current perspective) long and happy life and then drop dead before complications set in.

Life ain't like that. Reality is he may get to 65 that way, but many of those years will be living with the complications of not controlling the diabetes.

[Psycho Penguin]

His basic idea is:
- Live live happy for a few years
- Suffer the consequences later

Instead of:
- Live suffering forever
- Suffer consequences later

He is thinking short term and it bothers me because he's a cool guy. I am definitely going to show him this topic later.

[ant hill]

I don't happen to agree with him, as I'd like my QUALITY of life to be decent until I am 65 and I know if I cheat on my diet and don't regulate I feel like **** all the time and thats no way to live, but he doesn't get that problem so I can see his POV.

Thoughts?

I was diagnosed late and have complications and I feel if I slip up on control I would fear something nasty would happen. :eek:

But that a bad attitude to life I would think. :confused: Is he drunk?? ;)

His basic idea is:
- Live live happy for a few years
- Suffer the consequences later

Instead of:
- Live suffering forever
- Suffer consequences later

He is thinking short term and it bothers me because he's a cool guy. I am definitely going to show him this topic later.

So how old is he, Do you convince him to enjoy life now and into the future?

[Penny]

Thake it from someone who doesn't have that long before she is 65(about 3 years)....THAT AIN"T THAT OLD! I expect to live at least another 20 years at least. When your friend reaches his 60's, he will be wishing hard that he had taken care of himself. This is a good time in life, and you mostly still need your legs. :)

[xMenace]

So why live your life unhappy with the food choices you make and constantly beating yourself day after day, month after month, year after year knowing you might lose a leg in the end anyways?


So he thinks that diabetics have to make unhappy food choices while "normal" people can make happy food choices. Well it is all too normal to get fat, devlop CVD, diabetes, and cancer, and die young and "unhappy". These "happy" foods are for the most part unsatisfying and leave you feeling unhappy and unhealthy.

I hope he doesn't have children.

[Gordonm]

His basic idea is:
- Live live happy for a few years
- Suffer the consequences later

Instead of:
- Live suffering forever
- Suffer consequences later

He is thinking short term and it bothers me because he's a cool guy. I am definitely going to show him this topic later.

I definitly disagree with this. I have had this for 34 years and never felt like I was suffering at all because I could not gorge myself or just eat whatever. I have felt Ilive a much healthier and productive life than a lot of non diabetics. There are plenty of food choices that are good and healthy out there.

His consequences will come MUCH sooner if he does not take control of it. Maybe in just a few short years if he is out of control.

[notme]

I see several flaws in your friends theory. I don't associate a happy life with food. Food is fuel, not a life.

When we were all 23, we never thought we would get old or be sick. You tend to live for the moment and do what you please. Then you mature and realize that we all will have to deal with things in life and the choices we made in the past will definitely play a role in our future.

We will all age and not one of us is getting out of here alive. Your friend will pay for his living to eat instead of just living. Sad really. I guess that is why they made the movie "A Christmas Carol". The ghost of "Christmas Future" was pretty scary. I don't intend to meet him.

[mooredge]

Here is the way i like to think about. With the tools and medicines that are available now for Type I we really don't know what this will lead to in the next 15-20 years in terms of our health. Even with poor control it takes about 10 years for serious problems to arise, lengthen that to about 25 years or so for someone with good control. There are plenty of older type I on this forum that have an awesome quality of life 30 years down the line, most of which were spent using the equipment that was available at that time, which could not provide close to the level of control you can optain today. Even in the last 14 years since i was diagnosed i have seen huge improvements in BG moniters, the release of insulin pumps, new and better forumalated insulins, not to mention CGMs machines. So if those diabetics that are 50-60 yrs old now could do it with "old school" methods, we can definitely maintain an excellent quality of life well into our 60s by taking advantage of all the new amazing technologies that our available and constantly being improved upon.

[Mick]

I was diagnosed in 1966 at the age of 13--so I'm in year 43, and I'm 56 years old now, not too far from 65. At the time of my diagnosis, I was told that "with excellent control, you might get 20 good years before you begin to decline." I guess I proved them wrong, but if I'd have listened and tried to fit all of my life into those first 20 years, age 13 to 33, I'd have missed everything because I would have not taken good enough care of myself to live well for the next 40 or so. I was supposed to be the fragile, sick one, but by living carefully, I have stayed healthy and strong. I outlived my (normal healthy) wife, and have remarried--now I need to live at LEAST another 25 or 30 years (let's see-that gets me to age 80 or 85!), so that my new wife gets a good long life to spend with me! That will hopefully bring me to 65 or 70 years with diabetes, and screw anobody who feels that's not worth it--life is what you make it!
Michael

[David_S]

He is 23? If he is not worried about living past 65.. and the closer her gets he will.. is not worried about erectile disfuction? I am interested in all the works working .. as they should as long as they can. Life is too short not to enjoy it all.

[shiftzor]

He will have a unhappy life in the short term, caused by mood swings from his bg and probably depression. In the long term he will suffer from complications before probably dying a slow death. Why would you want to live 37 years of **** just to drop dead? Personally I want to live 37 good years and then keep going. ;)

Diabetes is a way of life. Your friend is just scared about giving up his freedom to diabetes. Sadly he probably hasn't realised that he gave them up on diagnosis the only choice he has now is to conform or rebel.

[type1db]

i use to think the same way. I was angry and depressed and didn't care about my health. When I met Amanda, my wife now, things have changed big time. I want kids and I want to see some grandchildrend one day. When you live for just yourself you can have that outlook. But I don't want to see my wife hurt or my future kids without a dad. BTW i'm 24 years old right now.

[BlueSky]

His basic idea is:
- Live live happy for a few years
- Suffer the consequences later

Instead of:
- Live suffering forever
- Suffer consequences later

He is thinking short term and it bothers me because he's a cool guy. I am definitely going to show him this topic later.
On average, diabetics die 10 years sooner than non-diabetics. So the challenge is to keep 10 years ahead of the average :) . It is really not that difficult, because more than half of the diabetics out there have very poor control. Their blood sugars are consistently high, and it is not surprising that so many of them die young.

You and your friend don't have to be like that. As young insulin sensitive T1 diabetics, the only thing you need to control is your blood sugar. People who do this well eventually die of old age. I intend to be one of them, and with all the new technology available for treating T1, young people like yourself have an even better chance of belonging to this club :) . Your friend's point of view simply doesn't stack up.

[stuartielow]

Well i kinda had that attitude for a while, convinced myself i was keeping a happy medium, hb1ac 9-10 but erratic control. I'm having a vitrectomy in a few weeks to try and save the vision in my right eye, things catch up with you and things channge. Oh and im 24 and very down.

"All this talk of getting old its getting me down my love,
like a cat in a bag, waiting to drown, this time im coming down, the drugs don't work they just make you worse but i know i'll see your face again........"

[gettingby]

Psycho, I'm pretty passionate when it comes to debates such as this. I generally do not get into them because I reluctantly seem to p*ss someone off with my thoughts. That being said, maybe get your friend to sign up here and have him read this thread here:
http://www.diabetesforums.com/forum/type-1-diabetes/27086-62-years-type-1-a.html

Richard and Mick both have been wonderful guides to me. They have both shown me that even though I have survived 24 years, I can survive 24 more, then 24 more, etc............
I guess that by being diagnosed at such a young age (13), I knew early on that I was not invincible. :)
And if he won't sign up, print Richard's story off for him to read. It may just be the push he needs.

[xMenace]

Well i kinda had that attitude for a while, convinced myself i was keeping a happy medium, hb1ac 9-10 but erratic control. I'm having a vitrectomy in a few weeks to try and save the vision in my right eye, things catch up with you and things channge. Oh and im 24 and very down.

"All this talk of getting old its getting me down my love,
like a cat in a bag, waiting to drown, this time im coming down, the drugs don't work they just make you worse but i know i'll see your face again........"


Lets get that down to sub-6!

Good luck with the vit.

[Gary_W]

Your friend's whole stance is based upon several false assumptions:

1. That you cannot go more than 40 years with T1 without being riddled with complications. Several members here have already done 40 years and are going strong. And they did the first 25 of that with no blood testers, poor nutritional info on food packets, less predictable insulins, no pumps etc. If they can do that, those newly diagnosed surely can with the ever improving technology, knowledge and meds.

2. Assuming that control must be painful and restricting when actually the opposite is true. I eat what I like and still keep a sub-6 HBA1c. Some folks do have to restrict certain parts of their diet to achieve this kind of control, others don't. Education as to what your body can do with the tools you are given is essential, and you may well find you need miss out on nothing whatsoever...

3. Assuming that you'll be ready to die at 65 is crazy; you cannot say how you'll feel on the subject at that point in your life as you'll be an entirely different person by then. It goes very quickly, and with the world as it is currently you'll still be working until 70. It would be nice to enjoy retirement / grandchildren with working eyes and legs.

Whilst diabetes has the potential to ruin lives, allowing it to do so with such ease is a really defeatist thing to do, especailly at such a young age.

[Busy Betty]

Psycho Penguin,
The biggest problem with your friends outlook is that by the time he changes his mind, it might be too late.

It almost was for me. I had the same ideas. Why give up a great time now for an uncertain future. Now I know that I was actually creating a future I didn't want. I'm 41 and have a number of complications that DO limit my life. Fortunately I can do most of the things that are important to me now, but a few years ago, that was not the case. I am alive and that is what is important to me now. I am spending the time to learn to control my diabetes now, but I wish I had tried sooner. Your friend still has a chance to create a good healthy future. Try now or it could be too late. I wish someone had told me.

[Lizzie G]

have you tried to explain to your friend that if he uses his insulin correctly and generally eats well and takes plenty of exercise that there is no harm whatsoever in eating the things he likes? i find it really surprising when i come on this forum and see people talking about never eating chocolate, cakes, treats etc when its a simple exercise in matching (ie carb counting) and timing (ie shooting in advance for high GI foods to prevent spikes).....we're not in the dark ages any more, and diabetes is a metabolic disorder meaning we cant process carbohydrates without insulin....everyone is so obsessed with the idea its just about sugar it makes me want to scream!!

for the record my last A1C was 5.8 and i eat EXACTLY what i want, when i want.

[Psycho Penguin]

I think he's just being stubborn. ;) I printed off this topic and will show it to him tomorrow. I hope it works..

Whoever mentioned the advances in technology is awesome and I never even considered that. For him to think that he's guaranteed to lose a limb with the advances medical technhology has made lately is just outrageous.

[davef]

Could it be that he is 23 and has discovered he is not invincible?

could it be that he is in denial?

Could it be, that he is just can't handle a challenge and thinks his way/approach will be easier? It's unlikely to be easier, he may get some years of living as he wishes but it's likely that he will bring things down on himself before he hits 65, and then have a horrible quality of life.

Ultimately it is his decision to make, but if he really wants to make a decision like this he should at least make sure he knows all the risks associated with his approach. There again if he is in denial, then that won't happen.

For his sake and the sake of his loved ones I do hope he decides to fight and live the long and full life he can have.

[trailrunner]

I don't plan on dying from diabetes. Nor do I plan on dying from any complications related to diabetes. I don't beat my self up about my numbers, I am SO much more than a number. I love my life, I love my children, I love my husband.I have to out live him anyways, as he is worth far more dead than alive:) I believe that the original posters friend has a fatalistic attitude about this disease. I eat right because I feel good when I make good choices. I would make good food choices regardless of diabetes. My children do not need to see me die a slow horrible death, a death that could be prevented by proper managment. I know this sounds a bit Pollyanna, but it's true for me. Besides when it's my time to go, it will be a time of Gods choosing. We all are here on this planet for a reason, I don't plan on leaving, or hasting my departure because I don't know when my tasks or purpose has been completed only God knows. Ok so now I am off my soap box... ;)

[Erin]

I don't plan on dying from diabetes. I don't plan on getting complications a day sooner than I'm gonna... and hopefully never. I also don't plan on denying myself food or pleasure or fun to control my diabetes. If you take control of your D you can do whatever a "normal" person would do without any problems.

Well that is without any additional problems... bad for you food is still bad for you even if you have normal blood sugar levels... drinking in excess is still bad for you even if your bg is fine.

But you don't have to have bad control to do all of those things that young folks like us do. And if you keep the control you can live a long and happy life.

[DanG]

I think he's just being stubborn. ;) I printed off this topic and will show it to him tomorrow. I hope it works.

Your friend is fine.
Just a different approach.
I cannot find one person in this thread that agrees with your friend.

In a way, I agree with your friend. However, I think there is plenty of way to enjoy life and live with diabetes. Junk food is junk. If he can eat good food, feel good, and live to 65 - he will do great. Junk food, too much booze, smoke, general wrecklessness may be a bit of fun - nobody argues against that - but when ya gotta git down to life - careful really is very enjoyable.

I can't preach against your friend - I sorta like his attitude. However, I bet if he tries the careful approach, he may enjoy things better than living wreckless. Hey, getting old and dying is part of life - if we ignore that, then when it takes us, we get disappointed.

Your friend's attitude is good from that perspective - age and death happens, accept it.

[Lizzie G]

I don't plan on dying from diabetes. I don't plan on getting complications a day sooner than I'm gonna... and hopefully never. I also don't plan on denying myself food or pleasure or fun to control my diabetes. If you take control of your D you can do whatever a "normal" person would do without any problems.

Well that is without any additional problems... bad for you food is still bad for you even if you have normal blood sugar levels... drinking in excess is still bad for you even if your bg is fine.

But you don't have to have bad control to do all of those things that young folks like us do. And if you keep the control you can live a long and happy life.

erin i love your outlook and completely agree...the way i describe it to people is that theres nothing i cant do or eat (except fruit juice and i hate cola etc so thats not a problem for me!), its just you have to learn to do it in a different way.....im lucky enough to be blessed with pretty healthy tastes but i LOVE my chocolate and i LOVE my wine, and i wouldnt dream of depriving myself of either, not for a single day (well, actually i try and do 3 totally alcohol free days a week to some degree of success!)

[DeusXM]

To be honest, as many have pointed out, your friend's making some bad assumptions.

Firstly, there's no reason why you can't take care of yourself AND enjoy good quality of life.

Secondly, if he doesn't take care of himself, he ain't even going to make it to 50, let alone 65. And it'll be a nasty way to go.

Frankly the idea of having a heart attack in my 40s or whatever is enough to think that I want to take care of myself. Actually, scratch that. The thought of never being able to have an erection from my late 20s onwards (I'm 24) is enough to think that I want to take care of myself. As complications go, losing a leg at 65 is a pretty **** minor complication when you look at the alternatives.

I don't blame your friend's reaction though. Our culture raises us to believe that we're special little flowers who deserve everything and should never have to compromise on anything in our lives. We've taken the idea of 'hope' and transformed it into this irrationality that we are not subject to external forces beyond our control.

At the end of the day, yeah, we all got the dirty end of the stick. It's not fair but a lot of things aren't. In the end, I like being able to get up every morning, feel pretty good, have the key parts of me work and enjoy myself. I couldn't do that if I didn't look after myself. I'm an atheist but I do think there's a lot to be said for the idea that your body is a gift from someone else, so you should treat it with care and respect - eve if you do feel that in terms of gifts, it's on a par with the knitted sweater from your gran which is four sizes too big and has too many arms.

[Michael R Zeigl]

I am about to start 48 years with diabetes and I feel better physically now than I ever have my entire life. This is partially due to pumping and fairly good control (last A1c was 5.9) but also due to the choices I make. It is amazing to me that some judge the quality of life by the ability to eat sweets whenever they want. Quality of life is more about how you feel physically and what you can do. A doctor once said that the secret to living a long life is to develop a chronic disease and take good care of it. I believe he was saying that by monitoring the chronic condition, you catch problems early and deal with them, then make good choices to keep them from happening again.

[Lizzie G]

It is amazing to me that some judge the quality of life by the ability to eat sweets whenever they want.

i think you are missing the point here. quality of life is about freedom of choice. and for some freedom of choice involves eating sweets. i think most people agree that with the quality of insulins now available high GI foods need not always be the enemy (whilst not a great idea to be the staple diet of anyone, whether a diabetic or not). its down to individual choice and if someone chooses to fill with artery clogging unethically raised fast food and prepacked c&&p that really is their business if it makes them happy (although i do slightly resent my taxes being spent on triple heart bypass surgery for people that choose to feed in this way).

[Eddy]

The thought of never being able to have an erection from my late 20s onwards (I'm 24) is enough to think that I want to take care of myself.


ED certainly can affect people before they hit 30...