Help if you can - what happens after training is done?

[Gladiador]

I have this doubt in my mind for a very long time, and I didn’t manage to find a proper response on various forums.
Of course, a query concernes PWM and blood glucose after training. My trainings are both aerobic and anaerobic. After my training is done (from just after untill 1-1,5h after) my body needs a higher insulin dosage than usual, and often I don’t know what to do. I am scared to give a higher bolus because of possible hypo. No matter the reasons why this blood glucose is high (contraeffect because of hypo, too long without insulin in general…etc.), I am wondering WOULD CORRECTION BOLUS POINT THIS HIGHER BLOOD GLUCOSE TOWARDS MUSCLES IN ORDER TO PLAY THE ROLE OF SIMPLE CARBS LIKE IN PWM?
Logically (from my point of view), mucles are screaming for FOOD, and NUTRITIONAL COMPONENTS FROM FOOD, not for glucose already present in the bloodstream out of various reasons.
Again, looking from the other point of view, we have all the elements practically ‘ideal’ for all athletes --> we have a higher blood glucose present + we have insulin and bolus (to correct this blood glucose) + we have the muscles screaming for glucose and protein in order to recover as soon as possible.

Also, how is it possible that blood glucose is higher than usual 1-2h after training is finished? I am covering it with higher boluses than normal. Also, after high intensity training is done, muscles need to recover and they are taking all the carbs and proteins active (from PWM). How is it possible that this carbs are still in the bloodstream and raising the blood glucose? Note that I don's take more than usual and they are natural (from fruit usually).

[foxl]

Hello, I am not an insulin user but will try to help answer your question.

Your muscles are indeed screaming to be fed -- and your adrenal hormones and other things (I still look at this as a "black box") thus stimulate your liver to make them more food -- from protein. This is called "gluconeogenesis," the making of new glucose. So your blood sugar levels unexpectedly go up.

I think most people only see this after a very hard workout.

I hope someone else can elaborate -- I am mostly posting to bump this to others' attention.

[mortis505]

Out of curiosity, what is your BG before exercising?

During times of stress, including stress on the body, your liver will "dump" its stored glycogen into the muscles to provide them with energy. If more is needed, then the cells that contain fat in your body will release any glycogen that they have stored. This is normal.

[REDLAN]

Glucose rising after exercise is very common.

It is not as I understand it due to the liver dumping it's supply of glycogen. The glucose rise you see actually comes from the muscles.

When you work hard you deploy more groups of fast twitch muscle fibres - these powerful muscles rely primarily on anaerobic breakdown of glucose, which releases lactate into the blood stream. This lactate is converted back into glucose by the liver and is released back into the blood stream, where it is reabsorbed by the muscles - hence the term lactate recycling.

For your muscles to absorb the glucose they need insulin, and clearly there is insufficient insulin for your muscles to do this.

I get this effect all the time - I find the more intense the session the greater the blood glucose rise. I find that my blood glucose starts rising soon after I stop - usually I can detect a rise within 15-30 minutes after stopping. I find that rather than wait and give a correction, what I do is take a carbohydrate based snack, and give myself a bolus of insulin for it. This usually prevents the post exercise rise.

There is a risk of hypoglycemia doing this, but I use a sliding scale based on intensity. If my workout has been endurance based and mostly aerobic then I reduce the bolus - if sprint training then I increase it - I found out the ratios to use by trial and error - which is why I always carry a couple of tubes of glucose tabs in my pocket.

[foxl]

Thanks, REDLAN -- that makes sense! Glycogen breakdown by muscle (which we know occurs in exercise).

[BlueSky]

I think a lot of people make the mistake of cutting back on insulin too much during and after exercise. We actually need more insulin action during and after exercise than we need at rest. This increased insulin need of course has to balanced against increased insulin sensitivity. But not having enough circulating insulin during and after exercise will cause BG to go up.

[mortis505]

Redlan, thanks for the info. That actually makes much more sense.

[Gladiador]

Thanks for the answers, it is a logical development cycle that occurs.

But, can this lactate convertion into glucose be used to build up a muscle structure (i.e. to play the role of carbs and proteins instead of taking PWM) when treated with correction boluses? Would it have the same effect like taking a PWM (whey+some carbs)?


Redlan, I have to say that I never miss a PWM after training is done. I cover it with up to 30% higher bolus, and yet a glucose increase is present no matter. I'm affraid to give a higher bolus because it can lower my glucose too much. This happens no matter if my glucose is 3,0mmol/L or 9,0mmol/L after training is finished.

Mortis, prior to exercise, I try to keep my blood glucose in targeted levels. If it goes too low during exercise, I always have something to make it rise a bit. But effect is the same no matter the blood glucose (I try not to be higher than 8-9,0mmol/L before exercise, usually it's around 7,0). If my glucose is too high, I try not to train before lowering it.

[foxl]

[QUOTE=REDLAN;453131]Glucose rising after exercise is very common.

It is not as I understand it due to the liver dumping it's supply of glycogen. The glucose rise you see actually comes from the muscles.

When you work hard you deploy more groups of fast twitch muscle fibres - these powerful muscles rely primarily on anaerobic breakdown of glucose, which releases lactate into the blood stream. This lactate is converted back into glucose by the liver and is released back into the blood stream, where it is reabsorbed by the muscles - hence the term lactate recycling.

For your muscles to absorb the glucose they need insulin, and clearly there is insufficient insulin for your muscles to do this.

QUOTE]


REDLAN, since you clearly have a good grasp of exercise physiochemistry ... do you know how exercise reduces insulin resistance then ... in the muscles themselves, or in the liver? I had this idea it was strictly within the muscles -- but is it?

[REDLAN]

I've been doing some reading, and of course things turn out to be a great deal more complicated, and less certain than my very simple model presented above.

Lactate recycling is a measured phenomenon in athletes. However there is some debate as to what happens to it, because in rats very little of the lactate gets turned back into glucose again. It seems the ratio is higher in humans, but how much is a matter of debate. Lactate can be oxidised directly by many tissues including apparently muscle - so this is the fate of some of the lactate released by the muscles.

The rise in glucose caused by lactate recycling is necessarily short term, and will only effect you for a short period after you finish exercising an hour or less. You often have to deal with the after effects, and so the blood glucose rise can last longer.

There is another mechanism that can raise BG after exercise - intense exercise increases release of adrenergic hormones which will cause a rise in blood glucose due to causing the liver to break down glycogen. This is a longer term response, and may explain the BG rises at the 2 hour mark after exercise. I saw study which showed there was still an effect 24 hours later.

note the 2 processes are exclusive the liver can either convert lactate into glucose OR it can break down glycogen into glucose it can't do both.

either way whichever effect you experience you need additional insulin to cover it

Lowering of insulin resistance after exercise is mediated by an enzyme called AMP activated kinase. This enzyme is very sensitive to AMP concentrations or low levels of energy in the cell. One effect of this enzyme is to increase the expression of GLUT4 glucose transporter - more receptors more glucose the cell can transport, and therefore greater sensitivity to insulin. Effects last 48 hours or so following exercise, but diminish with greater fitness. This effect occurs mostly in muscle.

AMP activated kinase is also implicated in BP control, cholesterol synthesis, fatty acid transport - all the things that are implicated in metabolic syndrome.

This little enzyme is why exercise is recommended as a treatment for type 2 - because put simply it lowers insulin resistance.

[foxl]

Thank you!

Interesting training effect -- the decreased IR effect over time and training ... but presumably, weight loss is effected through training, as well, and aids in maintaining lower blood sugars ... so worth maintaining fitness ... beyond the cardiovascular protection itself, I mean!

WOW:

At the crossroads: AMP-activated kinase and the LKB1 tumor suppressor link cell proliferation to metabolic regulation
John M Kyriakis

Molecular Cardiology Research Institute, Tufts-New England Medical Center, 750 Washington Street, Boston, MA 02111, USA

author email corresponding author email

Journal of Biology 2003, 2:26doi:10.1186/1475-4924-2-26


"In vivo, pharmacologic activation of AMPK with 5-aminoimidazole-4-carboxamide 1-β-D-ribofuranoside (AICAR) mimics exercise and triggers insulin-independent glucose uptake by skeletal muscle [2-4]. Thus, AMPK activators could alleviate glucose intolerance; in support of this idea, the biguanide drugs metformin and phenformin, as well as the thiazolidinedione rosiglitazone"

Interesting stuff ...

[foxl]

If interested, see also:

AMP-activated protein kinase - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMP-activated_protein_kinase)

[Gladiador]

Redlan, do you believe muscle structure can be completed with this higher blood glucose release + bolus corrections (put aside the PWM i.e. the food you take just after the training)?

[REDLAN]

I don't know the answer to this one.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by PWM - I Googled this and got pulse width modulation :)

By muscle structure I assume you mean muscle building - I know very little about techniques for muscle building. Most of my knowledge is around the effects of insulin/exercise/and glucose - mostly because this is what I find mostly affects me! :) Most of my exercise is aerobic mixed with sprints - I'm mostly interested in improving endurance and my lactate threshold.

there are others who do know about muscle building, and might be better able to help.

[Gladiador]

Thanks Redlan...

Oh, by PWM I simply mean post workout meal :) :)

If I find something out I will post it.

Cheers!