you might not like this

[shabbie]

you may remember i posted a thread recently that i had adopted eating alkaline only foods in a bid to try and get the better of diabetes and better health overall..

i got 'booed off the stage' at my announcement, but i am here to tell you today that 3 weeks in i am still enjoying a massive reduction in insulin usage. my average TDD was 23 units daily of which 9.9 units were basal.

now i take only 3.7 units TDD average!!! i am running my pump on 30% temp basal to acheive this!

its been an awesome journey, and i am happy to report i'm not just living on lettuce and tomatoes!!! i've been able to include some alkaline grains to my meals without the need to take insulin for them at all!!

overall i am very happy and i am feeling very fit and healthy....at last!!! :cool:

[type2in NY]

you may remember i posted a thread recently that i had adopted eating alkaline only foods in a bid to try and get the better of diabetes and better health overall..

i got 'booed off the stage' at my announcement, but i am here to tell you today that 3 weeks in i am still enjoying a massive reduction in insulin usage. my average TDD was 23 units daily of which 9.9 units were basal.

now i take only 3.7 units TDD average!!! i am running my pump on 30% temp basal to acheive this!

its been an awesome journey, and i am happy to report i'm not just living on lettuce and tomatoes!!! i've been able to include some alkaline grains to my meals without the need to take insulin for them at all!!

overall i am very happy and i am feeling very fit and healthy....at last!!! :cool:

Congrats!!!!
:)

I too go against the "convential wisdom" of this board and eat 100-130 of carbs per day and yet my weight keeps dropping and I feel very good. EACH person has to find what works best for them, I don't particularly care for other peoples preaching to people their way of handling diabetes.

I let the numbers speak for themselves, but consider all opinions.

[NoraWI]

The following is a list that you posted previously on foods you can and cannot eat:

meat products and dairy products are prohibited due to their very acidic process (not to mention all of the stuff that goes into it during the animals life)

no root vegetables or grains.

no alcohol, coffee, chocolate, soda drinks or fermented products ie vinegar


heres what you can eat:

lots and lots of green leafy vegetables, broccoli, cabbage, spinach, watercress etc etc

lemons,limes,grapefruit
avocados
nuts but not peanuts
fresh tomatoes
bell peppers ~ all colours
fish
oils, olive, coconut, linseed, flax etc etc
sprouted grains/seed/nuts

This diet is close to what T1 diabetics were fed to survive before the discovery of insulin.

[Tribbles]

heres what you can eat:

lots and lots of green leafy vegetables, broccoli, cabbage, spinach, watercress etc etc

lemons,limes,grapefruit
avocados
nuts but not peanuts
fresh tomatoes
bell peppers ~ all colours
fish
oils, olive, coconut, linseed, flax etc etc
sprouted grains/seed/nuts[/B]

This diet is close to what T1 diabetics were fed to survive before the discovery of insulin.

I thought citrus fruits were acidic (lemons especially) or is this a different acidic in some regard? Likewise tomatoes are acidic.

As NoraWI points out this works because there are so few carbs to need insulin, acid or alkaline has nothing to do with it.

[foxl]

shabbie there is a man who is pro-alkaline diet on another forum. It is TuDiabetes, you might want to go over there and talk to him. I had never heard of it before but thought you might be interested ...

Mods my apologies if this is out of line to mention!

[Gordonm]

I don't get it. What is so bad about taking insulin. You were not taking much to start with. You still have to take the insulin and are existing on pretty much nothing. What is the benefit of doing this??

[shiftzor]

I don't get it. What is so bad about taking insulin. You were not taking much to start with. You still have to take the insulin and are existing on pretty much nothing. What is the benefit of doing this??


I understand why someone would want to eat a extreme low carb diet however my concern is always how long they can keep up the diet and what about enjoying life. Even with the mental strength to keep up the diet and feeling better while on the diet I can't imagine that eating it long term would reduce stress on the body. The body will just be in a constant state of starvation maybe I am wrong. I wish you all the luck in the world Shabbie, as long as it works for you.

Motivation
Low carbs = less insulin = less fluctuation in BG (low standard deviation) = lower A1c = potentially less complications

[Funnygrl]

3.7 units? Congrats, you have a pancreas well capable of producing insulin, at least for now.

[ant hill]

This is interesting as it's simular to a vegitarian diet (I would have troble. :confused:) Even just low carbing would be difficult to master.
Shabbie, You are a determined girl and so Congratulations. :D

[viranth]

Hasn't it already been disproven that eating something of x pH, will have an effect on the body? It's not like there is ONE pH in the body.

[Jonathan_R]

It amazes me how many misconceptions there are. If you don't understand it, go research it. But let me give you this to chew on. Ketoacidosis is where your blood is acidic due to your blood sugar. If your blood can be acidic, then don't you think there is a middle ground as well, a pH balance.

Actually, there is. That pH balance is 7.3. There is also alkalosis, and the symptoms look very similar to acidosis. Alkalosis: Acid-Base Balance: Merck Manual Home Edition (http://www.merck.com/mmhe/sec12/ch159/ch159c.html)

I also have a chart of research that was done showing the pH of the blood sugar, ranging from 80 to 150.

The FDA has the pH of various foods. US FDA/CFSAN - Approximate pH of Foods and Food Products (http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~comm/lacf-phs.html) There has been a study done by the Endocrine Associates on the bone retention. It actually helps prevent bone loss. (endojournals.org)

Here are some of the sites I have read, good and bad.

Science of:

acid diet: Alkaline acid diet science (http://aciddiet.blogspot.com/2009/04/alkaline-acid-diet-science.html)

Acid Alkaline Diet Review | Get the Truth About Acid Alkaline Diet (http://www.vitalhealthpartners.com/acid-alkaline-diet-review/)

Potassium Bicarbonate Attenuates the Urinary Nitrogen Excretion That Accompanies an Increase in Dietary Protein and May Promote Calcium Absorption -- Ceglia et al. 94 (2): 645 -- Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism (http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/94/2/645)

[/url]


Improve Your Health Following the Alkaline Food Diet | Diet Plans Reviewed | Nutrition (http://www.metagenics.com/pdf/publications/0707_minich.pdf)

Diabetics:

Importance of Alkaline Food (http://www.diabetesmellitus-information.com/alkaline_food.htm)

[url]http://www.diabetesforums.com/forum/dieting/40985-alkaline-diet-anyone.html

Acid Alkaline Diet: Essential to Healthy living (http://www.vitaminsdiary.com/nutrients/alkaline-diet.htm)

Can the pH miracle diet prevent or control diabetes (http://www.contentcaboodle.com/health-and-fitness/diet-and-weight-loss/can-the-ph-miracle-diet-prevent-or-control-diabetes.html)

Alkaline Foods (http://www.diabetes-management.info/alkaline.php)

And an entire Google search confined to endojournals.org, the Endocrine Society.

- Google Search (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=YWt&as_q=+acid+alkaline++diet&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&num=10&lr=&as_filetype=&ft=i&as_sitesearch=endojournals.org&as_qdr=all&as_rights=&as_occt=any&cr=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&safe=images)

[Tribbles]

Looking at the endocrinology articles there is a difference between being injected with an alkaline solution to modify the blood balance, which is the approach a lot of those articles use, and eating alkaine substances which is what you are talking about. Other of those articles are using compounds for their chemical properties and not because they are alkali.

The fundamental flaw in this whole diet approach for me is that everything you eat winds up in the acid bath that is your stomach. The pH variances in the things you are eating are in no way sufficient to alter the pH of your stomach significantly and probably not even marginally.

This diet works because there are almost no proteins or carbohydrates so there is little requirement for insulin. It will work for anyone but most people would rather take insulin than follow that diet.

[butterflykisses]

I think the acid from ketoacidosis is from fatty acids, not sugar, if I understand it correctly. High glucose levels cause the body to try and remove the excess using fluids, leaving blood thicker, which leaves thick acid pumping through the body...again, as I understand it.:confused:

[Jonathan_R]

Tribbles, there is a fundamental flaw in your logic. The pH levels are tested with pH strips passed through urine. Which would be after the food has gone through the stomach, and the gastro-intestinal tract.

Not everything in the diet is low carb or low glycemic index. In fact quite a few things are high. I have the food list from their book. I have also read the pH miracle and another book on the subject.

Butterflykisses, you are largely correct. I was in such haste, I did not articulate that very well. Yes, ketoacidosis is from the improper burning of fats in your body. However, it is also the high content of sugar in the blood that triggers this condition. We know from chemistry, that everything has a certain pH. Blood does have a pH of 7.3. We know that sugar is acidic, as are a lot of foods, since it becomes acidic when we eat it. This is really where we are talking about anyway. The pH of the food when metabolized. Which is why lemon water becomes alkaline to the body. Anyway. Sugar becomes acidic to the body when metabolized. Doubt it? Ask a dentist. Or maybe measure the pH of soda pop. (I don't normally say soda pop, but saying soda just didn't work)

Here is a chart and list I did up from the documentation I read. Acid-Alkaline Food list (http://docs.google.com/View?id=dczd6mjw_8gmg63rfb) I couldn't upload it, since it was 328KB and the limit is 100KB.

I took the image from a pdf I have, that shows the pH of different blood glucose levels. I hope this answers a few questions.

[Gary_W]

Sharon - glad the diet is suiting you. How much of the health benefits you've experienced do you put down to the pH of the foods and how much do you put down to the lack of carbs / dairy / grains / meats / caffeine etc. It kind of sounds a bit like a detox-style diet, and I'm just curious as to how your body would cope with a similar diet that didn't actually take the pH into consideration.

Jonathan_R - I have to take issue with your little chart. It is suggesting that, if I have a BG value of 150 (or 8.3 in UK terms) that I would have a blood pH of 6.9? As death is pretty much a done deal at 6.8, you can say that many of us with T1 would be ending up in intensive care on a daily basis as we will cross this level an hour or so after eating as part of the 'normal' spike that we get. If I'm reading it wrong then apologies, but it looks way off to me.

Gary

[Jonathan_R]

Sharon - glad the diet is suiting you. How much of the health benefits you've experienced do you put down to the pH of the foods and how much do you put down to the lack of carbs / dairy / grains / meats / caffeine etc. It kind of sounds a bit like a detox-style diet, and I'm just curious as to how your body would cope with a similar diet that didn't actually take the pH into consideration.

Jonathan_R - I have to take issue with your little chart. It is suggesting that, if I have a BG value of 150 (or 8.3 in UK terms) that I would have a blood pH of 6.9? As death is pretty much a done deal at 6.8, you can say that many of us with T1 would be ending up in intensive care on a daily basis as we will cross this level an hour or so after eating as part of the 'normal' spike that we get. If I'm reading it wrong then apologies, but it looks way off to me.

Gary

I didn't make the chart. I just took it from a pdf of a study that was done. Here is the entire pdf [/url] I got the chart from page 4 of the pdf.

I seem to be having trouble with the link showing up.

[url]http://www.jbc.org/cgi/reprint/139/2/535.pdf (http://www.jbc.org/cgi/reprint/139/2/535.pdf)

[Jonathan_R]

Here is what the Merk Manual says about diabetic ketoacidosis.

Diabetic Ketoacidosis (DKA): Diabetes Mellitus and Disorders of Carbohydrate Metabolism: Merck Manual Professional (http://www.merck.com/mmpe/sec12/ch158/ch158c.html#sec12-ch158-ch158c-1233)

It just does not provide a pH chart for the various blood glucose levels. It simply says, if you're below 7.3 for the pH.

Another article says great than 250 mg/dL and below 7.3 pH

MD Consult -- Start Session Cookie Error (http://www.mdconsult.com/das/book/body/150482988-2/0/1387/43.html#4-u1.0-B0-323-03748-8..50032-4_461)

[Funnygrl]

It takes being critically ill for your blood pH to stray from 7.25-7.35. What you eat won't effect it.

Your stomach's pH is around 4. There's this stuff called hydrochloric acid floating around in there. Anything you eat is just going to become acidic once it hits your stomach.

[Rekarb]

I'm looking at your log. You have a blood sugar level and a blood sugar difference. How is the difference determined? Is it normal to have huge spikes like that?

Mike

[Jonathan_R]

It takes being critically ill for your blood pH to stray from 7.25-7.35. What you eat won't effect it.

Your stomach's pH is around 4. There's this stuff called hydrochloric acid floating around in there. Anything you eat is just going to become acidic once it hits your stomach.

Quite right, that first sentence is. Apparently you are not familiar with alkalosis.

Alkalosis - Overview (http://www.umm.edu/ency/article/001183.htm)

Also, if you knew the pH of hydrochloric acid 0.1 , and some chemistry you'd know that it is very possible to change the pH, but we are referring to the metabolic pH.

Hydrochloric acid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrochloric_acid)

To prove that you are wrong, if you take baking soda and put it in a mixture of lemon juice, or hydrochloric acid, if you add enough, you will neutralize the acid. The same is true of other foods containing alkaline properties.

[GretchO]

It takes being critically ill for your blood pH to stray from 7.25-7.35. What you eat won't effect it.

Your stomach's pH is around 4. There's this stuff called hydrochloric acid floating around in there. Anything you eat is just going to become acidic once it hits your stomach.

and then doesn't your pancreas secrete a digestive enzyme that raises the pH of the stuff coming out of your stomach anyway (making it alkaline)? so if your body's going to do this for you anyway, what's the point of eating something alkaline? besides the benefits of the food's other nutritive values that have nothing to do with alkalinity, etc.?

i don't doubt at all that the foods that make up an alkaline diet are beneficial, healthy, and can be very good on your blood sugars.

[Funnygrl]

and then doesn't your pancreas secrete a digestive enzyme that raises the pH of the stuff coming out of your stomach anyway (making it alkaline)? so if your body's going to do this for you anyway, what's the point of eating something alkaline? besides the benefits of the food's other nutritive values that have nothing to do with alkalinity, etc.?

i don't doubt at all that the foods that make up an alkaline diet are beneficial, healthy, and can be very good on your blood sugars.
As food moves down the GI tract, things like bile neutralize the pH. I'm not sure about the specific pH effects of pancreatic enzymes.

Alkalosis is considered a critical illness too.

[Jonathan_R]

As food moves down the GI tract, things like bile neutralize the pH. I'm not sure about the specific pH effects of pancreatic enzymes.

Alkalosis is considered a critical illness too.

I wish bile neutralized the pH. But alas, this isn't entirely accurate.

Indeed, and there is more than one type. One type can occur from what you eat. So if you can get alkalosis from what you eat, just like acidosis, then it makes sense that foods have more impact on pH than you give credit for.

[Funnygrl]

I wish bile neutralized the pH. But alas, this isn't entirely accurate.

Indeed, and there is more than one type. One type can occur from what you eat. So if you can get alkalosis from what you eat, just like acidosis, then it makes sense that foods have more impact on pH than you give credit for.
I've only ever heard of that happening if you drink like several bottles of Mylanta.

[Jonathan_R]

I've only ever heard of that happening if you drink like several bottles of Mylanta.

I accidentally came across alkalosis while researching this a couple weeks ago. I was at the library trying to get a pH chart for various blood glucose levels. The librarian started hitting the reference books, and one of them covered alkalosis. That was the first time I heard of it. Since then, I have just read everything I can find on this entire acid-alkaline diet thing. I wanted to know what I was getting into, before I made the move.

As it says in my signature, I love researching things. I did have 66 tabs open in my Firefox. Now I'm down to 58. Yes, I do that much research.

One thing I know, it is possible for foods to change our pH.

[Funnygrl]

I accidentally came across alkalosis while researching this a couple weeks ago. I was at the library trying to get a pH chart for various blood glucose levels. The librarian started hitting the reference books, and one of them covered alkalosis. That was the first time I heard of it. Since then, I have just read everything I can find on this entire acid-alkaline diet thing. I wanted to know what I was getting into, before I made the move.

As it says in my signature, I love researching things. I did have 66 tabs open in my Firefox. Now I'm down to 58. Yes, I do that much research.

One thing I know, it is possible for foods to change our pH.

I'm glad you like to research. I believe everyone should be well informed.

That being said, I'm not buying the pH thing. Sorry. And as someone trained in conventional medicine, it's not likely you'll change my mind.

[DeusXM]

Ketoacidosis is where your blood is acidic due to your blood sugar.

No, it's not.

DKA is where your blood turns acidic due to the presence of ketones caused by the metabolism of fat and protein. DKA is not caused by high blood sugar; it is caused by a lack of sufficient insulin.

You have got this the wrong way round - acidity is a symptom, not a cause of DKA. If you take enough insulin for your body's metabolic requirements, you will not go into DKA and your blood will not become more acidic.

You really, really need to understand this. One again, I must point out that you've written posts suggesting that you are looking for a way to treat your T1 without insulin. Once again, I must point out that this is physiologically impossible and even if you spent your life swallowing baking soda instead of insulin, you would still develop DKA and die.

This really isn't open for discussion, it's as much a medical fact as the idea your heart pumps blood around your body, and to suggest otherwise on a public forum for the management of diabetes is downright dangerous and irresponsible.

As for shabbie - I am pleased your diet is working for you and you are happy. That's what treating diabetes is all about. I do not share your perspective that it is the alkaline making things better for you (essentially your diet is low-calorie, low-carb) but the point is that it is working for you. What anyone else thinks is irrelevant.

[shabbie]

thanks to everyone for your replies which i have been reading with interest. there are many valid points raised here.

1. i'm not starving on this diet, ive only lost 7 pounds in weight since i started (weight loss was not my goal, but i am happy with this loss ;) )
the hardest part of the diet was the detox bit, which took around 12 days, i felt like cr** and tired most of the time. after 3 weeks though ive balanced things up with the addition of a couple of amino acid supplements and feel like a new woman! full of energy and brimming with good health.
i've made sure to maintain good protein levels within my diet and snacking on nuts and sliced cucumber, bell pepper and carrot etc has been key to maintaining energy levels.

2. a healthy body should maintain a neutral pH levels all by itself. but when we continually fill up with sugars, fats and over processed foods, soda drinks, etc, then the body has difficulty keeping up with the constant bombardment of toxins that need to be cleansed out. in effect what you then have is a toxic overload. and acidosis.

3. as diabetics we should understand more than any person that what we put into our mouths affects the way our body responds. to say that what we eat has no effect on our pH levels is foolish imho, we should remove our blinkers and see that we COULD POSSIBLY improve our bodily functions with something as simple as a clean diet and bicarbonate of soda. do you think the pharmaceutical companies want it to be so simple? where is the big cash cow now?? the diabetics are all curing themselves and no longer need them!

4. the science buffs/researchers among you may like this article (http://www.alkalife.com/page.php?cms=article&articleid=44)which explains what is going on far better than i ever could.

just for info, i had to drop my temp basals down to 20% yesterday afternoon. i had a good meal out with my hubbie including some cake and icecream and i took no insulin with the meal to see if my body would deal with the carb challenge itself and corrected 2 hours later for bg's of 9.8 mmols. so the pancreas isnt totally managing yet, but those basals keep coming down! my bg's were still level this morning with no ill effects either.

[shabbie]

also read this (http://www.phmiracleliving.com/t-type-I-diabetes-documented-reversal.aspx).................................... ...:cool:

[DeusXM]

I am not disputing that this diet works for you. But I would also point out one thing.

do you think the pharmaceutical companies want it to be so simple? where is the big cash cow now?? the diabetics are all curing themselves and no longer need them!

How can you make a statement like this (namely, the pharmaceuticals are making money out of you and so can't be trusted) when the links you've posted are to people are also just as much selling something?

This is the issue I have - so many people are quick to blame 'big pharm' and be so suspicious because of the money involved yet are prepared to suspend their disbelief when someone who isn't an established corporation comes up with a 'miracle' solution.

If a pharmaceutical company came up with a 'miracle' drug and marketed it so, I'd laugh in their face and be highly sceptical - and they will have thousands of scientists working and researching for them. And with that line of logic, I'd be even more sceptical of a couple of guys who start talking about tackling the evil forces of the universe, 'supercharging colloidals' into your cells, and whose websites look shoddy except when it comes to the e-commerce solutions.

Like I said, if the diet works for you, great. But just looking over what you're eating, I could tell you why it's working without resorting to pseudoscience and I don't even have any nutritional qualifications other than knowing less carbs = less insulin and that less processed foods are better for you.

[Tribbles]

4. the science buffs/researchers among you may like this article (http://www.alkalife.com/page.php?cms=article&articleid=44)which explains what is going on far better than i ever could.

I'll bite! The first paragraph of that article is utterly wrong and the rest of the article is built on it. You cannot materially change your blood pH by the acidic or alkali pH of the food you eat and claiming swallowing bicarb pills will do this is insane.

Your stomach is far more acidic than anything you can get down your throat without physical damage. Moreover if you start to make the stomach more alkali it simply makes it more acidic in response (shutting down this feedback is the basic principle that pump inhibitors like Prilosec work on). The diet works for the reason DeusXM and others have stated, you don't need the pseudo-science for this to work for you.

[ant hill]

Like I said, if the diet works for you, great. But just looking over what you're eating, I could tell you why it's working without resorting to pseudoscience and I don't even have any nutritional qualifications other than knowing less carbs = less insulin and that less processed foods are better for you.

I like what Deus just said, If we just look at what we eat and concentrate on the amount of what we throw in our gullet. Then we can loose a lot of weight!!!
Because we live in a world that there is too much food and the busy life style that we do we don't have the attention to concentrate of what we eat and eat too much!!!
Modern foods are also to blame like the processed foods and foods that look like food that isn't food at all. [The food you have when it is not food]

There is just one other ingredient.... Exercise!!!! :D:D

[davef]

Shabbie,

Whatever all the various articles cited by people say, this approach seems to be working for you and that to me is the interesting part. The difficulty I personally have with such diets is actually sticking to them, but I guess if you get into "the groove" of eating a particular diet it becomes second nature and may become easier.

If there any chance you could share a list of what you are eating in a typical day? For the hard of understanding like me, I find it helps to see a sample meal list to know better if it's the type of thing I could attempt.

Best of luck,

[ant hill]

Yes Dave, That's my biggest problem too. To stick with the resheme as I love my food too much. :(

[shabbie]

Shabbie,

Whatever all the various articles cited by people say, this approach seems to be working for you and that to me is the interesting part. The difficulty I personally have with such diets is actually sticking to them, but I guess if you get into "the groove" of eating a particular diet it becomes second nature and may become easier.

If there any chance you could share a list of what you are eating in a typical day? For the hard of understanding like me, I find it helps to see a sample meal list to know better if it's the type of thing I could attempt.

Best of luck,

of course dave ;)

here goes........

breakfast
'smoothie' made from 200ml soya milk or filtered water, a handful of spinach, handful of raw cabbage/other green leafy veg, 1 tomatoe, 1 avocado, handful of soaked almonds, half cucumber, blizt it all up, season to taste and serve in a bowl.
the ingredients vary as do the flavourings used, but this is the basic recipe. this amount usually does for 2 meals for me....

lunch
same smoothie as breakfast, with sliced up raw veggies to dip into it, and some almonds to crunch on. some days will also add some cooked wild rice or buckwheat as well.

dinner
salad of spinach, tomatoe, cucumber, bell pepper, avocado, maybe have some cooked rice, buckwheat or quinoa, some lightly cooked broccoli or cauliflower. salad dressings are made from olive oil, lemon juice, and various herbs or spices to add flavour. tonight i added fresh chilli,coconut and a host of indian spices which was delicious.


drinks will be only filtered water with either lemon or lime.
snacks will be half grapefruit, nuts, any of the raw veggies listed, i'm also experimenting with dehydrating raw food recipes as well.also experimenting with stevia so as to satisfy any sweet tooth cravings.

[shabbie]

isn't it well documented that some people do well on the Atkins diet? now i'm not knocking this diet if it works for anyone, what i understand is that the atkins diet is made up mainly of animal fats...whether its meats, cheese, butter, cream, and very limited veggies/fruits. this diet is very low carb...yes, but it is also very high in acidifying foods whcih are not so good for the system.:eek:

has anyone heard of a type 1 on atkins talk of reducing their insulin by as much as i have?? just curious......;)

[It Ain't Over]

isn't it well documented that some people do well on the Atkins diet? now i'm not knocking this diet if it works for anyone, what i understand is that the atkins diet is made up mainly of animal fats...whether its meats, cheese, butter, cream, and very limited veggies/fruits. this diet is very low carb...yes, but it is also very high in acidifying foods whcih are not so good for the system.:eek:

has anyone heard of a type 1 on atkins talk of reducing their insulin by as much as i have?? just curious......;)

Not to the level you have, but I am following the Berstein low carb diet and yes, I have reduced the TDD from an average of 25/day to about 18/day.
I would not be too skeptical of this diet either. Whether it is the alkaline content, or the sharply reduced carbs, a type 1 can benefit significantly from any reduction in carb intake. Reducing the insulin dosage is not the goal so much as it the effect here. Insulin has some very negative effects on the body when taken in higher doses. It makes sense to work to reduce the insulin requirements. For me that is a side story to the larger benefit which has been tighter control of the blood sugars.
BTW Bersteins diet is basically meats, fish, cheese, and lots of green vegtables. The focus here is on taking in foods that are slowing and inefficiently digested and converted to sugars. The point being the bolus taken will then be able to keep up with the sugars going into the bloodstream and you will be able to maintain a more or less level bg.

[soso]

Hi Sharon
If I eat eggs meat fish with just green veggies I would be able to manage on just 3u of lantus per day or if I did not take the lantus I would take 1 unit of rapid with each meal.. I do still have a small amount of endogenous insulin and if I eat green veggies with protein I can just about manage, so I think yes, if I did atkins I could def take a minimal amount of insulin.

[viranth]

of course dave ;)

here goes........

breakfast
'smoothie' made from 200ml soya milk or filtered water, a handful of spinach, handful of raw cabbage/other green leafy veg, 1 tomatoe, 1 avocado, handful of soaked almonds, half cucumber, blizt it all up, season to taste and serve in a bowl.
the ingredients vary as do the flavourings used, but this is the basic recipe. this amount usually does for 2 meals for me....

lunch
same smoothie as breakfast, with sliced up raw veggies to dip into it, and some almonds to crunch on. some days will also add some cooked wild rice or buckwheat as well.

dinner
salad of spinach, tomatoe, cucumber, bell pepper, avocado, maybe have some cooked rice, buckwheat or quinoa, some lightly cooked broccoli or cauliflower. salad dressings are made from olive oil, lemon juice, and various herbs or spices to add flavour. tonight i added fresh chilli,coconut and a host of indian spices which was delicious.


drinks will be only filtered water with either lemon or lime.
snacks will be half grapefruit, nuts, any of the raw veggies listed, i'm also experimenting with dehydrating raw food recipes as well.also experimenting with stevia so as to satisfy any sweet tooth cravings.

When I'm on low carb diet (sub 80ish carbs) I don't need any insulin at all. I'll keep a steady 4-5mmol BG all day and night.

[Gordonm]

I will post my question again. Why is this a contest to see who can take the least amount of insulin and still maintain good control? I see no benefit to eating like this or taking as little insulin as possible. Yes it is healthy food but there is not enough calories for a normal human to exist on this so yes you are going to lose weight. I'm curious to see how this all goes at 6 months and at 1 year. I wish you well but I could not exist on this. I consume 2000 to 2500 calories a day depending on exercise and maintain a 140 to 145 weight on a 5'7" frame. I am pretty lean also.

[soso]

I realize you don't necessarily mean me when you ask this Gordon as I am pretty happy to take insulin and I do not feel in any way competitive about anything to do with diabetes even with myself)

I will say though that I do try to take as little insulin as possible and that is why I choose a fairly low carb lifestyle...
I gain weight pretty easily, so i limit what I eat a lot of the time just in the interests of general good health and I will admit a little vanity...I have never lost weight on low carb, even super low carb I did for 2 yrs..didn't gain any either though, on the plus side. I am somewhat scared of getting insulin resistant and I don't like spikes and hate lows so that is another reason I try for stability, which moderate carb gives me.
A long 1.5 honeymoon is good in some ways, but a can be an emotional time...I know I still have the odd day when I think I am getting "better".. it is a confusing way to live, never quite sure.. some meals I eat loads and do OK sometimes the opposite and I know this is true for everyone, but having some insulin production sort of gives you a little hope of a loophole I think....
One thing for sure,if insulin worked as well as some (OK a lot) of non D's think it does I would be eating way more carbs. I know I wouldn't enjoy Sharon's diet 24/7/365, but it is pleasing her for now, just as very low carb pleased me for the first year. FWIW I think she is doing well because it is so low carb/low calorie...but what do I know? More power to her, though I must say I was not comfortable with the idea of parents reading that website and having hope their T1 kids could be cured by that diet.

[davef]

Sharon,

Thanks for the menu list, well done for being able to stick to that I know it's something I just couldn't manage - particularly as there is no meat at all. I'm an unapologetic carnivore, don't get me wrong I like veg, so long as there is meat with it ;)

I think my problem with sticking to the diet, even for a week, is that I did all the "fad" diets during the 80's when I was trying to shift weight - remember the scarsdale diet :eek: - I did lots of them. I had varying success but I have an abiding memory of shakes etc.

Were you vegetarian before you started this regime? If not perhaps it would be an idea to talk to some vegetarians to make sure the foods you are eating are providing you with all the nutrients etc that you need.

I'm mostly certainly not knocking what you are doing, I just know it's not for me but if it works for you then go for it!

[shabbie]

hi dave, i was a carnivore prior to starting this diet, but it didnt seem to be suiting me very well, my digestion was so slow and grumpy after eating meat, especially the red meats.

some days i take some salmon or other fish, and i forgot to list that i quite often add soya beans to the menu as well. i found some in the freezer section of tesco , it makes it easier to use them, and better than canned ones. although i'm sure canned ones will come in handy at some point to make a very quick meal ;)
i am actually enjoying the menu so far. i couldnt live on just the shakes/smoothies and soups.
i have been vegetarian before, for about 8 years, nutrition happens to be of big interest to me too ;)

gordon, i havent posted about my success for any reason other than to show others how much of an impact such a diet can have on the body. i beleive my pancreas is seeing a revival of sorts...news (i foolishly thought) other D's would appreciate. my aim was not to turn it into a 'who can use the least insulin'. the whole point was to show how much improvement could be seen on a diet that has been engineered by a micro-biologist who has studied the effects of what we eat for over 20 years. a diet that has seen success for many people who had allergies, skin problems, depression, joint problems, sleep problems, weight problems...etc etc (the list is extensive ;) )

i was diagnosed D in may 2006, even as i was coming to terms with handling the D, and understanding how to manage it very well, with consistently excellent A1c's, i also knew that one day i would no longer have Diabetes. you can say what you like about being in denial , but i never have been in denial. i am very grounded, sensible and have a good working knowledge of the nutritional values of what i put into my mouth. i ate sensibly before, and i eat sensibly now.

Soso, thanks for you input ;) i think the little boy must have still had some beta cell function for it to work so completely for him. and the whole family did the diet with him to also enjoy better health. wow! now thats some commitment! :eek:

itaintover, a reduction of 25% is really great on the atkins, i find this very interesting.

viranth, not even any basal insulin??? do you still have insulin production of your own then?? :confused:

[DeusXM]

i beleive my pancreas is seeing a revival of sorts...news (i foolishly thought) other D's would appreciate.

We would, but here's the problem.

You haven't really told us what you were eating before in terms of carbs.

All of us know here that the fewer carbs you eat, the less insulin you require. The diet you have posted is very big on green veggies and very low on carbs - whether this is an alkaline diet or not, it is also a low-carb diet.

The reason for the scepticism is that you're seeing the exact same results that anyone would expect from a low-carb diet and without you sharing your previous diet with us, it is impossible to deduce whether it is the apparent change in pH or the reduction in carbs that is reducing your insulin requirements.

Simply put, it's far more simple to say your new diet requires you to take less insulin, rather than it is restoring pancreatic function. I'm not disputing the possibility of pancreas restoration but it scientifically seems unlikely and until you eat a low-carb diet without considering the role of pH, it is empirically impossible to tell.

If you're really keen to demonstrate your point (for the benefit of all of us), it would be very interesting for you to measure the amount of carbs, proteins and fats you are eating on your alkaline diet, and then eat the same amounts on a non-alkaline diet. If the BG results are the same, it's the carbs. If they're not, it could be the alkaline.

I would say this though - if all I ate in a day was low-carb smoothies and a salad, I'd probably need less insulin too and I'd lose a lot of weight.

[Gordonm]

OK. Point well taken. I understand. It is just not for me and many others. If it works for you that is great. From a type 1 for lots of years this is just not practical and the thought of curing myself was gone long ago. I wish you luck and keep us updated.

[Jonathan_R]

DeusXM, you make a good point here. Until we know that in both diets the carb intake is the same, we will never know if its the alkaline foods or not.

Of course a blood test may show if the pancreas is being restored.

[shabbie]

understood deus ;)

i admit my previous diet was more carby, and i would allow myself chocolate most days even whilst watching my overall carb count.

heres a typical day before

breakfast
half can baked beans, and scrambled eggs.
cup of camomile tea with honey.
20g carbs

or

soya yoghurt with 1 whole apple and dessertspon of peanut butter (crunchy/unsweetened)
20g carbs


lunch
3 rice cakes with tin of tuna or cold meats and salad leaves (18g)

dinner
bean casserole with steamed cauliflower (30g)
or
fish with steamed broccoli/peas/ green veggies and mayonnaise (20g)

sweet (most evenings)
bar dairy free chocolate (27g)
or
dairy free icecream (20g)

snacks
rice cakes (6g each)
apple
nuts



i understand perfectly that my new diet isnt for everyone, the first couple of weeks detox were not easy.

what i'm stunned at is the effect it has had on my system!!! thats why i wanted to share it.


:)

[shabbie]

i'm guessing a c-peptide test would show pancreatic function?

[Jonathan_R]

I was thinking the same shabbie. A c-peptide should reveal pancreatic function or not.

Here's an idea for you shabbie. See if you can consume the same amount of carbs and still do the alkaline diet (should be possible). Then see how your blood glucose levels are.

[DeusXM]

i admit my previous diet was more carby, and i would allow myself chocolate most days even whilst watching my overall carb count.

Thanks for sharing - like I said, I'm not criticising your choice of diet at all, I'm just saying that we should explore everything before we start looking at possible but less likely solutions. Looking at your original diet, it looks like you were previously eating around 100g of carbs a day. I don't know what your current carb intake is but I'd imagine most low-carbers wouldn't consider 100g 'low carb'.


what i'm stunned at is the effect it has had on my system!!! thats why i wanted to share it.

Good for you. Everyone should share what works for them - it's this knowledge sharing that makes us all better at treating our diabetes.

A c-peptide should reveal pancreatic function or not.

True, but it won't reveal whether there's been a change or not since we don't have a control reading.

[shabbie]

i agree that 100g is not low carb, jonathans suggestion of increased (alkaline) carbs is interesting, i might give that a try ;)

also good point re the c-pep test too deus ;)

[soso]

When I do low carb for a while or even lower carb than I am usually doing, I see an overall improvement in my numbers. I would like to think it is my pancreas doing better and I do believe I go through periods when my beta cells are regenerating a little faster than they are being killed off and vice verse... however, upon reflection I think the main factor is that if I imagine my stored insulin as a liquid in a cup, with a certain amount trickling in each day and each meal I have a little ladle comes along and scoops out what is needed to deal with it, it stands to reason that when I am scooping less out for each meal there is a bigger reserve for background needs and also if I do suddenly need a big scoop for a carby meal.

That said, I don't think it matters all that much why the diet works, it always comes back to if we can be happy on a diet that gives us good blood sugar we will all stick to it, in a way it's what we are all doing..I doubt there are many here who don't limit their food choices at all, I think we get used to curbing our impulses pretty quick with this disease..

[Grunch]

we will never know if its the alkaline foods or not.

We already know it's not because it goes against all logic. There was never in the history of the universe an event where logic was violated and I very much doubt this is the first time.

[DeusXM]

We already know it's not because it goes against all logic. There was never in the history of the universe an event where logic was violated and I very much doubt this is the first time.

Yes, but scientifically you cannot rule out a possibility (no matter how unlikely) until you can prove something else is responsible.

That's all I'm suggesting - if we're going to (rightly) use science and logic here, it's important to consistently apply its principles.

Like I said, the carb reduction is far more likely a cause here BUT it can't be conclusively proven YET because in this experiment, two variables have been changed. A conclusive experiment should only change one variable at a time.

[shabbie]

i decided to do a small test yesterday to see how my body would respond to some carbs, tied in with a need for some dairy free chocolate that my husband had hidden from me.

after my evening meal of sweet potaotes and a host of raw veggies/salad and avocado, i enjoyed half a bar of the chocolate. a whole bar is 27 grams.

i tested 20 mintues later and my bg's had shot up to 8.6, 3 hours later they had come down to 6.6, when i awoke in the night around 2am bg's were 5.2, and at 6am this morning they were still 5.2! no insulin was taken apart from basal in that time.

:D

[Grunch]

So what's your point?

That test just shows that you're a diabetic and that your pancreas still produces insulin. Nothing we didn't already know.

[shabbie]

So what's your point?

That test just shows that you're a diabetic and that your pancreas still produces insulin. Nothing we didn't already know.

gee thanks for your support grinch! this site makes me sick!
:mad:

[Gary_W]

i decided to do a small test yesterday to see how my body would respond to some carbs, tied in with a need for some dairy free chocolate that my husband had hidden from me.

after my evening meal of sweet potaotes and a host of raw veggies/salad and avocado, i enjoyed half a bar of the chocolate. a whole bar is 27 grams.

i tested 20 mintues later and my bg's had shot up to 8.6, 3 hours later they had come down to 6.6, when i awoke in the night around 2am bg's were 5.2, and at 6am this morning they were still 5.2! no insulin was taken apart from basal in that time.

:D

Glad it's working for you, and hats off in your general direction if you feel you can stick to a diet of this nature that is working for you. I'd personally miss coffee, wine, bread, meat, rice, spuds etc. And I'd miss eating out, as that can't be easy if you're sticking to this. But good luck to you :)

[dbaratta]

What types of foods are those? I started the adkins diet.....

[dbaratta]

understood deus ;)

i admit my previous diet was more carby, and i would allow myself chocolate most days even whilst watching my overall carb count.

heres a typical day before

breakfast
half can baked beans, and scrambled eggs.
cup of camomile tea with honey.
20g carbs

or

soya yoghurt with 1 whole apple and dessertspon of peanut butter (crunchy/unsweetened)
20g carbs


lunch
3 rice cakes with tin of tuna or cold meats and salad leaves (18g)

dinner
bean casserole with steamed cauliflower (30g)
or
fish with steamed broccoli/peas/ green veggies and mayonnaise (20g)

sweet (most evenings)
bar dairy free chocolate (27g)
or
dairy free icecream (20g)

snacks
rice cakes (6g each)
apple
nuts



i understand perfectly that my new diet isnt for everyone, the first couple of weeks detox were not easy.

what i'm stunned at is the effect it has had on my system!!! thats why i wanted to share it.


:)
wow, that is a lot of carb. I couldn't eat that diet. I am almost carb free....I eat very very little carb cause if I don't I am shooting insulin all day long. Not fun.

[dbaratta]

So what's your point?

That test just shows that you're a diabetic and that your pancreas still produces insulin. Nothing we didn't already know.
Holy cow you are doing great in such a short time.