McDonalds Breakfast

[reefedjib]

I am now starting to monitor before a meal, +1 hr after and +2 hr after. I just went out a splurged on a McDonalds Breakfast: 1 Bacon Egg and Cheese Biscuit, 1 Hash Browns, 2 Medium OJs. My BG went from 186 before the meal to 394 at 1 hour after the meal! Total carbs was 138g! Bad move I know!

Slightly OT: I am not currently shooting a bolus based on carbs, only based on BG before the meal. Anyways, I am exploring what it would actually be if I were taking them based on carbs. Based on weight (230 lbs), my I:C ratio is 1:8. Therefore my insulin to cover carbs is 138/8 = 17 units. My sensitivity factor is 21-26, based on 70 units total daily insulin - I choose 21 since I run a high BG. With a target BG of 120, I take (186 - 120)/21 = 3 units to correct BG. There is no physical activity, so the activity multiplier is 1.0. 17 units for carbs and 3 units for BG gives me a 20 unit bolus. Am I doing this right?

Cheers!

[Josselyn]

I know nothing of insulin; I'm in the earlier stage of this thing. I'm still trying to process the breakfast you ate at McDonald's... I'm sorry, I'm very new to this and my diagnosis still scares the pants off me, but if I ever saw a number that approached 394, ever, I'd probably stroke out.

Please don't do that to yourself.

[reefedjib]

I know nothing of insulin; I'm in the earlier stage of this thing. I'm still trying to process the breakfast you ate at McDonald's... I'm sorry, I'm very new to this and my diagnosis still scares the pants off me, but if I ever saw a number that approached 394, ever, I'd probably stroke out.

Please don't do that to yourself.

lol! 394 actually on the low side of what my BG is typically after eating throughout the day. My highest score is 499. This has everything to do with my diet I am learning (and lack of exercise as well). Over the past week I have consciously avoided carbs and I am seeing numbers in the 200s and even high 100s for the first time ever. I went for some comfort food this morning and got a chance to see its effect first hand. A learning experience like all that this disease offers.

At some point I am going to have to limit fat intake as well since I have astronomical cholesteral numbers too. I am rather pissed off that I have to follow a strict diet, but the numbers speak for themselves.

[Josselyn]

Hi Rob. If you dump the carbs, the fats do not increase your cholesterol level, and may well reduce it. That's the beauty of low carb, you can still have cheese, butter, meats, eggs, etc. (ala Dr. Atkins) and without an appreciable amount of eaten carb with them, the fat does no harm. The body learns to burn fat as a fuel source (and has to work to do so) when one eats on a low carb regime as opposed to the easier-to-burn carbs (especially the white ones) one normally might eat. I'm sure others have their input, but I have always lost weight best (and in the right places) that way. I should have stayed with it - maybe I wouldn't be a Type 2 right now (sigh). My carb addictions got the best of me, it seems...

[reefedjib]

Hi Rob. If you dump the carbs, the fats do not increase your cholesterol level, and may well reduce it. That's the beauty of low carb, you can still have cheese, butter, meats, eggs, etc. (ala Dr. Atkins) and without an appreciable amount of eaten carb with them, the fat does no harm. The body learns to burn fat as a fuel source (and has to work to do so) when one eats on a low carb regime as opposed to the easier-to-burn carbs (especially the white ones) one normally might eat. I'm sure others have their input, but I have always lost weight best (and in the right places) that way. I should have stayed with it - maybe I wouldn't be a Type 2 right now (sigh). My carb addictions got the best of me, it seems...

Really? No kidding? That's pretty sweet. My nutritionist was trying to get me to cut fat out of my diet, saying that it prolongs carb action (which it does I do believe), but if I limit my carb intake there isn't much for fat to prolong. She wasn't telling me to cut carbs, so I no longer see her.

Thanks for the info!

[matingara]

Really? No kidding? That's pretty sweet. My nutritionist was trying to get me to cut fat out of my diet, saying that it prolongs carb action (which it does I do believe), but if I limit my carb intake there isn't much for fat to prolong. She wasn't telling me to cut carbs, so I no longer see her.

Thanks for the info!

Yes. NO KIDDING. i thought we already had this discussion once before? (excuse my memory - if i am wrong).

Nutritionists are really not worth your time or concern for where you are right now.

Cut WAY back on the carbs. Way Way back - like < 30grams per day. and i almost guarantee your cholesterol and triglyceride numbers will have your doctor asking you "how the heck did you do this???".

if you cut way back on the carbs - ramp up on the protein and fat so and eat enough so that you feel full. not eating enough at this stage will almost guarantee that you fall back and snack on carbs! so snack on cheese and salami and pork rinds and nuts.

please at least try. it works for a lot of people.

regarding the mcdonalds breakfast. next time you feel the urge - SKIP the OJ, skip the Hash browns. Order black coffee. Order 3 bacon and egg burgers (or whatever they call them). throw away the muffins and/or bread and just eat the middles.

i have not been to macdonalds in years - but i seem to remember the middles are ham and cheese and eggs only (???).

:)

-- Joel.

[reefedjib]

Yes. NO KIDDING. i thought we already had this discussion once before? (excuse my memory - if i am wrong).

Nutritionists are really not worth your time or concern for where you are right now.

Cut WAY back on the carbs. Way Way back - like < 30grams per day. and i almost guarantee your cholesterol and triglyceride numbers will have your doctor asking you "how the heck did you do this???".

if you cut way back on the carbs - ramp up on the protein and fat so and eat enough so that you feel full. not eating enough at this stage will almost guarantee that you fall back and snack on carbs! so snack on cheese and salami and pork rinds and nuts.

please at least try. it works for a lot of people.

regarding the mcdonalds breakfast. next time you feel the urge - SKIP the OJ, skip the Hash browns. Order black coffee. Order 3 bacon and egg burgers (or whatever they call them). throw away the muffins and/or bread and just eat the middles.

i have not been to macdonalds in years - but i seem to remember the middles are ham and cheese and eggs only (???).

:)

-- Joel.

No, this would be the first time I have heard about it. It is all new to me and I am trying to understand and set the proper course.

I wont be going back to McDonalds for breakfast. It's bacon and eggs for me.

< 30 grams of carbs is pretty aggresive but I'll work it out. I will at least try.

Thanks for the feedback.

[GeishaGirl]

Yeah, no kidding :) Even the Mayo Clinic has released a statement online that low-carbing can decrease cholesterol. Here's the weird thing: your body can only produce fat through insulin. That's a fact. Insulin takes the blood glucose you're not using immediately, puts some of it into the liver, and the rest gets converted immediately into fat. Now, here's the interesting part: insulin ONLY works on blood glucose -- 95% of which comes from carbs! (You can get a little from protien). So, if you lower your carbs, there is virtually NOTHING in your body that can be converted into fat! Therefore, you start BURNING fat for fuel. That's the release of ketones (byproduct of burning fat). It is a perfectly acceptable form of fuel for the body -- don't let people tell you that the brain NEEDS glucose. It doesn't. It PREFERS glucose (the same way we PREFER doughnuts over rye toast, let's say!) but there's a mechanism in the brain set up to use ketones. It just takes a few days to kick in -- the same way it takes us a few days (or more!) to learn to like "healthy" food over unhealthy food.

Here's the other interesting part: triglycerides (that annoying marker for heart disease) can ALSO only be made from carbs. Lower carbs = lower tris. Same thing with cholesterol. Cool, huh?

If you can, try to read Good Calories, Bad Calories by Gary Taubes. I'll be honest, I'm an English teacher and I could only read the first 100 pages -- but those 100 pages changed the way I see EVERYTHING about nutrition.

Skip the nutritionist. Did you know that 150 years ago, the FIRST thing someone did when they wanted to lose weight was stop eating bread and pastry? Not meat, not bacon -- bread. I've even found references to it in Jane Austen, Agatha Christie, and several other "period" authors now that I'm looking. (Yes, I know Agatha Christie was the early 1900's -- but that's still before the 50's, when the "fat is bad" craze started).

Okay, I'm done now :)

[ShottleBop]

If you can, try to read Good Calories, Bad Calories by Gary Taubes. I'll be honest, I'm an English teacher and I could only read the first 100 pages -- but those 100 pages changed the way I see EVERYTHING about nutrition

If you want the biochemistry, written in a more conversational vocabulary, check out James Carlson's Genocide:How Your Doctor's Dietary Ignorance Will Kill You.

[GeishaGirl]

If you want the biochemistry, written in a more conversational vocabulary, check out James Carlson's Genocide:How Your Doctor's Dietary Ignorance Will Kill You.

Oooh, I've never heard of that one! I'll have to get that out of the library!

[dbaratta]

Slightly OT: I am not currently shooting a bolus based on carbs, only based on BG before the meal. Anyways, I am exploring what it would actually be if I were taking them based on carbs. Based on weight (230 lbs), my I:C ratio is 1:8. Therefore my insulin to cover carbs is 138/8 = 17 units. My sensitivity factor is 21-26, based on 70 units total daily insulin - I choose 21 since I run a high BG. With a target BG of 120, I take (186 - 120)/21 = 3 units to correct BG. There is no physical activity, so the activity multiplier is 1.0. 17 units for carbs and 3 units for BG gives me a 20 unit bolus. Am I doing this right?

Cheers![/QUOTE]

Sounds right to me, but why not try a healthier breakfast so you don't have to take so much insulin? ;) I know, you want to tell me to kiss off. LOL

[Gordonm]

I am a type 1 and if my numbers were like yours I would really try to do something drastic. If my BS is 186 even before a meal I just will not eat. Your BS is going to go up and the higher it rises the ,ore insuling resistant you will become and the more insulin you will need. I will not eat until my BS is below 120. I know mine will go up but if it goes up 100 points that is 220 not in the 300s or 400s. Just because it is 6 or 7 AM does not mean you have to eat. I realize with some jobs and some instances you have to eat but the old adage of diabetics have to eat at certain times is not real anymore. Keep at it and learn all you can. You will get a good education here. Keep asking questions. I have had type 1 for 35 years and am still learning. :D

[DannyK]

I am a type 1 and if my numbers were like yours I would really try to do something drastic. If my BS is 186 even before a meal I just will not eat. Your BS is going to go up and the higher it rises the ,ore insuling resistant you will become and the more insulin you will need. I will not eat until my BS is below 120. I know mine will go up but if it goes up 100 points that is 220 not in the 300s or 400s. Just because it is 6 or 7 AM does not mean you have to eat. I realize with some jobs and some instances you have to eat but the old adage of diabetics have to eat at certain times is not real anymore. Keep at it and learn all you can. You will get a good education here. Keep asking questions. I have had type 1 for 35 years and am still learning. :D


Wise man......:)

[reefedjib]

Yeah, no kidding :)

Now, here's the interesting part: insulin ONLY works on blood glucose -- 95% of which comes from carbs! (You can get a little from protien). So, if you lower your carbs, there is virtually NOTHING in your body that can be converted into fat! Therefore, you start BURNING fat for fuel.

Here's the other interesting part: triglycerides (that annoying marker for heart disease) can ALSO only be made from carbs. Lower carbs = lower tris. Same thing with cholesterol. Cool, huh?

Skip the nutritionist. Did you know that 150 years ago, the FIRST thing someone did when they wanted to lose weight was stop eating bread and pastry? Not meat, not bacon -- bread. I've even found references to it in Jane Austen, Agatha Christie, and several other "period" authors now that I'm looking. (Yes, I know Agatha Christie was the early 1900's -- but that's still before the 50's, when the "fat is bad" craze started).

Okay, I'm done now :)

Thanks for the very readable explanation! Other than try to lower my carb intake just through menu selection, I suppose I ought to get into the Atkins diet. Would you recommend this?

Thanks also for the book recommendations, both you and ShottleBop. I'll try to get ahold of them.

[reefedjib]

Slightly OT: I am not currently shooting a bolus based on carbs, only based on BG before the meal. Anyways, I am exploring what it would actually be if I were taking them based on carbs. Based on weight (230 lbs), my I:C ratio is 1:8. Therefore my insulin to cover carbs is 138/8 = 17 units. My sensitivity factor is 21-26, based on 70 units total daily insulin - I choose 21 since I run a high BG. With a target BG of 120, I take (186 - 120)/21 = 3 units to correct BG. There is no physical activity, so the activity multiplier is 1.0. 17 units for carbs and 3 units for BG gives me a 20 unit bolus. Am I doing this right?

Cheers!

Sounds right to me, but why not try a healthier breakfast so you don't have to take so much insulin? ;) I know, you want to tell me to kiss off. LOL[/QUOTE]

Kiss off! Just kidding! ;-) I am very resistant to changing my diet, but I have been doing so, other than breakfast, for the past 3 days or so and am seeing my BG numbers < 200 for the first time. I am sold. I just need to implement, but am finding it difficult. I did forego the MickyD's beakfast this morning and had sausage and eggs. Tasty. Thanks for confirming my numbers!

[reefedjib]

I am a type 1 and if my numbers were like yours I would really try to do something drastic. If my BS is 186 even before a meal I just will not eat. Your BS is going to go up and the higher it rises the ,ore insuling resistant you will become and the more insulin you will need. I will not eat until my BS is below 120. I know mine will go up but if it goes up 100 points that is 220 not in the 300s or 400s. Just because it is 6 or 7 AM does not mean you have to eat. I realize with some jobs and some instances you have to eat but the old adage of diabetics have to eat at certain times is not real anymore. Keep at it and learn all you can. You will get a good education here. Keep asking questions. I have had type 1 for 35 years and am still learning. :D

Having been 350-450 on my fasting BG in the mornings for the 3 months I have been testing, seeing a 186 because I have been skipping carbs at lunch and dinner is a huge step IMHO. I am quite happy to have gotten below 200. That's not to say I don't know I have more to go. Let's see, the target changes in my lifestyle to get healthier are Stop Smoking (2 packs/day), Exercise, Low-carb diet (I am now convinced). I tried Stopping Smoking and failed. I signed up for a gym last week and am starting to work out. Last up is diet - Maybe it should have been first. I am getting there and I am not giving up - can't afford to. But I will slip occasionally. I am not yet prepared to pass up a meal because of my lowest number yet. I will change my portion size and try to snack right to avoid hunger. I am sure I have seen it in another thread but what are good snack foods?

[fgummett]

I'm not a big fan of Atkins -- I read his book only after Gary Taubes' and Dr Bernstein's. I found Atkin's over-hyped and it tends to garner a negative reaction from most people who hear you are doing it. It is an old idea that was around long-before Atkins... in fact I believe it was the way we -- humans -- always ate, until our nutritionists thought they knew better than Mother Nature.

Here is an on-line version of a book on the subject from 1975 -- The Saccharine Disease - Contents (http://www.journeytoforever.org/farm_library/Cleave/cleave_toc.html)

Dr Bernstein's is aimed directly at those of us with D and it does contain dietary advice. Taubes is not a diet book but lays out clearly the history of where we went wrong, as well as detailing the biochemistry affected.

Another author to look up is Michael Pollan -- Unhappy Meals -- NY Times... (http://www.michaelpollan.com/article.php?id=87)

I don't follow any diet book but I gave you a sample of my daily menu in another thread... basically if you avoid ALL packaged and processed foods* and only eat real whole foods you will be off to a good start -- that does not mean you need to feel deprived or hungry all the time either :cool:

*This requires vigilance.. don't be fooled by OJ (might as well drink Cola), breakfast cereals or most breads -- even so-called "whole-wheat" are still mostly refined/concentrated carbohydrates/sugars.

[kgm0612]

Rob, you are slowly but surely on the right track especially if your blood sugars have dropped from 350-450 before breakfast down to 186. Try not to eat as many carbs for breakfast when you're running that high.

Karen

[Gordonm]

Your definitly on the right track. I am not a big fan of any diet. I like to call it more of a life style change. A diet is something you go off of. A life style change is just that. You have to make a decision to lead a healthier life. You are working at it. It sounds like you had quite a few bad habits that need breaking. Maybe not doing it all at once but try slowing down on some of the bad habits. Reduce the size of your meals, cut back on the smoking and do moderate exercise until you get comforatble with it. Then take a little more. Pretty soon you will be eating better, quite smoking and doing exercise. It will be a total change in your life but it will pay off in the long run.

[reefedjib]

I'm not a big fan of Atkins -- I read his book only after Gary Taubes' and Dr Bernstein's.


*This requires vigilance.. don't be fooled by OJ (might as well drink Cola), breakfast cereals or most breads -- even so-called "whole-wheat" are still mostly refined/concentrated carbohydrates/sugars.

Which book of Dr. Bernstein should I get? There are several. Is it Diabetes Solution? I am going to get these books aread them. Must stay informed. I loved reading Think Like a Pancreas.

I am going to miss drinking OJ. (eyes tearing up with sentiment)

[reefedjib]

Karen and Gordon,

Thanks for the encouragement. This won't be easy to go full bore. I am already slipping (had a coke a half hour ago). Still I have some success to encourage me.

[Josselyn]

Protein makes a great snack, Rob: lean meats, cheeses (not low fat - I like a turkey & cheese roll-up, or two), sunflower seeds, many nuts, Atkins shakes/bars (especially if you've a bit of a sweet tooth), hard boiled eggs, a mini-omelet, etc tend to be my snack foods of choice.

[fgummett]

Yes Diabetes Solution.

I also sometimes miss OJ and if it weren't for the D I'd suggest eating an Orange -- I have a few basic guidelines that help me decide what to eat and an orange is real whole food -- but with the D you also have to accept what effect it will have on your BG... testing and "eating to your meter" is the bottom line.

BUT don't forget you can mix food... so while an apple is usually out of bounds for someone with D, by eating half an apple with some real peanut butter (just crushed nuts) or some full-fat mature cheese you can slow the BG spike and likely make it work for you. Same as in my other post where I suggest a few berries in real cream (35%) with a sprinkle of dark-chocolate over top... who would have thought that eating healthy could feel so decadent :D

[kgm0612]

Karen and Gordon,

Thanks for the encouragement. This won't be easy to go full bore. I am already slipping (had a coke a half hour ago). Still I have some success to encourage me.


Switching to diet soda takes a bit of getting used to. Have you tried Coke Zero? I think it tastes a lot like the "real thing"!
Also, Crystal Light is excellent and quenches my thirst.

Karen

[jilliebean42]

I thought I heard that burning ketones was harder on your kidneys?

[fgummett]

I thought I heard that burning ketones was harder on your kidneys?Why would it be when it is natural for our bodies to use fat as energy -- ultimately that is why we store it in the first place... as an energy source.

[Gozelle]

I am a new member and can't figure out how to add my introduction . . . . I am confused. Is this the right place to post? I just clicked quick reply, so I do not think so.

[princesslinda]

Gozelle, go to the introductions and announcments forum (you can find this by choosing "forums" under "Site Navigation," located to the right of your screen.

[reefedjib]

Switching to diet soda takes a bit of getting used to. Have you tried Coke Zero? I think it tastes a lot like the "real thing"!
Also, Crystal Light is excellent and quenches my thirst.

Karen

I have not tried Coke Zero - I will next chance I get. I love Crystal Light; maybe I could mix at home and bring to work in a water bottle.

Cheers!

[princesslinda]

This won't be easy to go full bore. I am already slipping (had a coke a half hour ago).

I haven't found a substitute for real Coke that I like, so i've switched to Diet Mtn Dew or Diet Dr. Pepper. I didn't drink regular Mtn Dew before diagnosis, so the diet tastes fine for me. If you have a hankering for juice, Ocean spray now has sugar free add ins in "Cran-Grape," "White Cran-Peach" and "Cran-Pomegranate." O fat, 0 Carbs, 0 sugar.

If i'm going to have something sugary or carby, I want something I can savor and enjoy like a nice dove dark chocolate mini, not something i'm just going to quickly swallow like soda.

You can do this!

[fgummett]

If i'm going to have something sugary or carby, I want something I can savor and enjoy like a nice dove dark chocolate mini, not something i'm just going to quickly swallow like soda.I'm with you Linda! If I'm gonna have something I'd rather have something real -- dark chocolate (70% cocoa or higher has minimal BG effect) is always on my shopping list and I must admit when thirsty I drink nice ice-cold water :)

[reefedjib]

I haven't found a substitute for real Coke that I like, so i've switched to Diet Mtn Dew or Diet Dr. Pepper. I didn't drink regular Mtn Dew before diagnosis, so the diet tastes fine for me. If you have a hankering for juice, Ocean spray now has sugar free add ins in "Cran-Grape," "White Cran-Peach" and "Cran-Pomegranate." O fat, 0 Carbs, 0 sugar.

If i'm going to have something sugary or carby, I want something I can savor and enjoy like a nice dove dark chocolate mini, not something i'm just going to quickly swallow like soda.

You can do this!

I am not sure about the diet sodas but I'll try the drinks you mention. Who knows? The juice, on the other hand, is awesome info. All three of those sound delicious and 0 Carbs. Awesome!

I am a Dark Chocolate slave at >70%!

Thanks for the recommendations and the encouragment!

[Josselyn]

I'm not a big fan of Atkins -- I read his book only after Gary Taubes' and Dr Bernstein's. I found Atkin's over-hyped and it tends to garner a negative reaction from most people who hear you are doing it. It is an old idea that was around long-before Atkins... in fact I believe it was the way we -- humans -- always ate, until our nutritionists thought they knew better than Mother Nature.

Here is an on-line version of a book on the subject from 1975 -- The Saccharine Disease - Contents (http://www.journeytoforever.org/farm_library/Cleave/cleave_toc.html)

Dr Bernstein's is aimed directly at those of us with D and it does contain dietary advice. Taubes is not a diet book but lays out clearly the history of where we went wrong, as well as detailing the biochemistry affected.

Another author to look up is Michael Pollan -- Unhappy Meals -- NY Times... (http://www.michaelpollan.com/article.php?id=87)

I don't follow any diet book but I gave you a sample of my daily menu in another thread... basically if you avoid ALL packaged and processed foods* and only eat real whole foods you will be off to a good start -- that does not mean you need to feel deprived or hungry all the time either :cool:

*This requires vigilance.. don't be fooled by OJ (might as well drink Cola), breakfast cereals or most breads -- even so-called "whole-wheat" are still mostly refined/concentrated carbohydrates/sugars.

I largely agree with you, fgummett...except in one minor area:
People seem to hate the word "diet." One's Diet is simply what one eats! To go on a diet is simply to control what you eat!

Daily, this becomes our choice whether we follow a beaten path (such as Atkins or Bernstein's approach) or if we glean information from multiple sources and apply them in a way that makes sense for us in the long term. When one is discussing low carb eating in the mainstream, Atkins and South Beach are well known...and Atkins gets the bad rap largely due to the many people who thought eating pounds of bacon and sausage was the way to go. It's scary how few people of my own acquaintance started eating like that without ever having actually read the book. The program is far healthier than most would believe, but for its two week induction period where veggies are limited to a couple of daily green salads...20 grams of carb.

Your dietary suggestions are excellent, but seemingly (to this Newbie) hard to pull off (in total) from the beginning. For instance, the supermarkets here are limited in their stock, there is no local health food-type store, and I work full time and go to grad school...so cooking from scratch is a challenge. Being new (and scared), I want to do it all...correctly...and NOW.

For me, if I didn't have an Atkins shake to grab for breakfast most mornings, I probably would skip breakfast (just like before). I use Atkins as a guideline, as to which veggies might be the better choices, and how to add certain carbs back...while still managing my weight loss.

Bernstein's book and regime sets the bar pretty high, doesn't it? I take what I can from that, too. And from the people here, like yourself. I think its wonderful to have a forum like this that provides such resources to people with diabetes.

And, before I go - for reefedjib, I have a suggestion for a tasty 0 carb drink: Talking Rain ICE (in individual plastic bottles). It's carbonated, fruity, artesian well water with antioxidants. Delicious. 5 calories, 0 carb. Worth looking for (I found them at BJ's this time)...it got me off Coke (I abhor diet soda, except Sprite Zero).

Have a great day, all.