How does a low-carb diet reduce cholesterol?

[reefedjib]

I read up on the biochemistry of cholesterol in my new book. It can come from foods of animal origin or it can be synthesized from Acetyl-CoA, itself produced from glucose, fatty acids and amino acids - all three food groups. If I eat a high-fat, low-carb diet, I'll be getting some amount of cholesterol from the fat. But I won't have as much glucose my blood and in whereever cholesterol is produced (liver?). Somehow that translates to lower cholesterol. How's that?

[fgummett]

I personally think that the focus on cholesterol is bogus... cholesterol is vital for our health.

The problem stems from observations that the atherosclerotic plaques which end up clogging arteries are in fact made up of cholesterol BUT one of cholesterol's many jobs is to patch up the linings of our arteries when they become inflamed.

Trying to prevent this natural attempt at repair by artificially reducing the amount of cholesterol in our bodies is like saying we need to prevent scabs on skinned knees by reducing the fibrin and platelets in our blood that are used to make those scabs... don't try this at home kids 'cos it would probably lead to us bleeding to death.

Another analogy I've heard is that if you made detailed observations at every car crash you would note an almost 100% correlation between crashes and skid-marks on the road -- so obviously you would reduce the incidence of crashes by putting a non-skid Teflon coating on all the roads :eek:

Clearly what we really ought to be doing is addressing the reason for the inflammation in the arteries -- in that case my understanding is that a prime suspect is high insulin levels + high BG levels as a result of eating high levels of refined/concentrated carbohydrates.

[xMenace]

I wish it were that easy Frank.

I agree 100% that cholesterol itself is vital for you, and the movement to lower it was and is insane. However there are high correlations between CHD and other lipid elements, noteably LDLs and Tryglycerides (TG). I know some are refining this further to VLDLs and TGs. I cannot explain how they work. I don't think anyone really knows yet.

It's my understanding that low carbing will raise cholesterol and HDL. It will also raise LDLs, but I'm not convinced that's bad. The LDL number seems to rise because VLDLs fall and skews the LDL readings (only big fluffy LDLs are remaining which are not considered as dangerous). TGs plummet with low carbing.

[reefedjib]

putting a non-skid Teflon coating on all the roads

:D:D:D And they won't stick after the crash.

Clearly what we really ought to be doing is addressing the reason for the inflammation in the arteries -- in that case my understanding is that a prime suspect is high insulin levels + high BG levels as a result of eating high levels of refined/concentrated carbohydrates.

What you wrote is very interesting. But I have a high, in all the wrong areas, lipid profile:
(actually it isn't that high except for the Tris)

Total Cholesterol 224
Triglycerides 380
HDL Cholesterol 36
VLDL Cholesterol 76
LDL Cholesterol 112

My understanding is that bringing the BGs down, and corresponding insulin levels, will bring down Cholesterol, LDL and VLDL numbers and bring up the HDL number. Tris are another story. Is this due to less production of cholesterol from glucose? It must still be enough to repair arterial walls.

[fgummett]

Sure John :) I oversimplified for the sake of brevity but if reducing refined/concentrated carbs reduces the inflammation AND reduces the Triglycerides AND alters the LDL into predominantly the large fluffy molecules then surely it's a win win win!

The Role of LDL Particle Size Assessment... (http://www.centerforpreventivemedicine.com/04114med_messenger.pdf)

[reefedjib]

The LDL number seems to rise because VLDLs fall and skews the LDL readings (only big fluffy LDLs are remaining which are not considered as dangerous).

I also read that the small, compact LDLs are produced in the body, somewhere, from glucose. The fluffy ones are consumed. We must produce less as BGs fall.

[Granny Shanny]

Rob? Moving slightly OT here, I don't get why you're prescribed simvastatin, instead of something which would address your high triglceride level as well as your other lipids?

Your overall cholesterol is above normal; you don't say what your LDL is, but as I understand it, simvastatin has no affect on HDL or tryglyceride, right?

[foxl]

Granny, I am on simvastatin and it is supposed to reduce LDL ... it just does not raise HDL.

Anyhow, John, Rob, et al, yes, there are people here who LOWERED their total cholesterol and LDL and trigs, and raised HDL (I suspect by exercising), by low-carbing and attendant weight loss.

Trigs definitely lower by lower-carbing. The source of trigs IS dietary carb.

Suffice it to say, it is a paradoxical and unexpected finding, to lower cholesterol strictly through low-carbing ... and yet, it is a finding for quite a few people here.

[ShottleBop]

Read James Carlson's Genocide: How Your Doctor's Dietary Ignorance Will Kill You.

[reefedjib]

Rob? Moving slightly OT here, I don't get why you're prescribed simvastatin, instead of something which would address your high triglceride level as well as your other lipids?

Your overall cholesterol is above normal; you don't say what your LDL is, but as I understand it, simvastatin has no affect on HDL or tryglyceride, right?

My LDL is listed last in my list. It's 112. I don't know why I am not on medication for high Triglycerides. I think you are correct, Simvastatin only deals with LDLs (and maybe VLDLs).

[reefedjib]

Read James Carlson's Genocide: How Your Doctor's Dietary Ignorance Will Kill You.

I have this book. In the queue. I finished Dr. Bernstein's Diabetes Solution today and started Good Calories, Bad Calories.

[Granny Shanny]

My LDL is listed last in my list. It's 112. I don't know why I am not on medication for high Triglycerides. I think you are correct, Simvastatin only deals with LDLs (and maybe VLDLs).

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b202/sneezytwo/doh-2.gif (Sorry, I was looking at your signature . . . had to go find the post with your listing.)

[reefedjib]

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b202/sneezytwo/doh-2.gif (Sorry, I was looking at your signature . . . had to go find the post with your listing.)

I love your graphic! How to you get these embedded into posts? Can you browse them?

[Granny Shanny]

Use the http://www.diabetesforums.com/forum/images/editor/insertimage.gif button up there above the posting screen message box & paste the URL for the image you want in the popup slot. Voilà!

There are scads of smilies libraries all over the net. Here's one that lets you copy the code and everything, eliminating the need to use that button. Just copy the graphic you want & paste it where you want it. BestSmileys.com (http://bestsmileys.com/pageindex.htm)

[Chef Barrae]

I love your graphic! How to you get these embedded into posts? Can you browse them?

If you are doing this very low carb diet with lots of fats can't you just have mostly good fats? Use the monounsaturated and polyunsaturated fats like olive oil, canola oil, almonds, walnuts, olives, avacado, etc. rather than saturated fats. Does this work in your type of diet or are you supposed to eat animal fats? I ditched the statins a long time ago because of eating the healthier fats and have always kept it that way since. I also stay away from transfats in margarine and will use an occasional pat of unsalted butter. This is what works for me. BTW, some people believe that using olive oil to saute in destroys its nutritional value and this is a pure fallacy.

[ShottleBop]

Some saturated fat is beneficial:

The Importance of Saturated Fats for Biological Functions

By Mary G. Enig, PhD

Many people recognize that saturated fats are needed for energy, hormone production, cellular membranes and for organ padding. You may be surprised to learn that certain saturated fatty acids are also needed for important signaling and stabilization processes in the body.

Signaling processes work in the cells at the level of the membrane proteins, many of which are called G-protein receptors. The G-protein receptors become stimulated by different molecules and can be turned off or on in a manner similar to a binary light switch, which remains on for a limited time and then flips itself off until it is stimulated again.

The saturated fatty acids that play important roles in these processes are the 16-carbon palmitic acid, the 14-carbon myristic acid and the 12-carbon lauric acid. These saturated fatty acids are found in certain food fats. Palmitic acid, for example, comprises 45 percent of palm oil and about 25 percent of animal and dairy fats. Furthermore, the body makes palmitic acid out of excess carbohydrates and excess protein.

A biochemical process called palmitoylation, in which the body uses palmitic acid in stabilization processes, although not very well known, is very important to our health.

When these important saturated fatty acids are not readily available, certain growth factors in the cells and organs will not be properly aligned. This is because the various receptors, such as G-protein receptors, need to be coupled with lipids in order to provide localization of function.

The messages that are sent from the outside of the cell to the inner part of the cell control many functions including those activated by, for example, adrenaline in the primitive mammalian fight/flight reactions. When the adrenal gland produces adrenaline and the adrenaline (beta-adrenergic) receptor communicates with the G-protein and its signal cascade, the parts of the body are alerted to the need for action; the heart beats faster, the blood flow to the gut decreases while the blood flow to the muscles increases and the production of glucose is stimulated.

The G-proteins come in different forms; the alpha subunit is covalently linked to myristic acid and the function of this subunit is important for turning on and off the binding to an enzyme called adenylate cyclase and thus the amplification of important hormone signals.

When researchers looked at the fatty acid composition of the phospholipids in the T-cells (white blood cells), from both young and old donors, they found that a loss of saturated fatty acids in the lymphocytes was responsible for age-related declines in white blood cell function. They found that they could correct cellular deficiencies in palmitic acid and myristic acid by adding these saturated fatty acids.

Most Westerners consume very little myristic acid because it is provided by coconut oil and dairy fats, both of which we are told to avoid. But myristic acid is a very important fatty acid, which the body uses to stabilize many different proteins, including proteins used in the immune system and to fight tumors. This function is called myristoylation; it occurs when myristic acid is attached to the protein in a specific position where it functions usefully. For example, the body has the ability to suppress production of tumors from lung cancer cells if a certain genetically determined suppressor gene is available. This gene is called fus1 and is a protein that has been modified with covalent addition of the saturated fatty acid myristic acid. Thus, the loss of myristic acid from the diet can have unfortunate consequences, including cancer and immune system dysfunction.

Lauric acid has several functions. It is an antimicrobial fatty acid on its own and as a monoglyceride. It also has the function of stabilization when it is attached to certain proteins in a similar fashion to myristic acid and palmitic acid.

Stearic acid is the 18-carbon saturated fatty acid. The main sources are animal tallows, which contain about 20-25 percent stearic acid, and chocolate, which contains about 35 percent stearic acid. In other foods it occurs only on levels of 1-2 percent.

How much total saturated do we need? During the 1970s, researchers from Canada found that animals fed rapeseed oil and canola oil developed heart lesions. This problem was corrected when they added saturated fat to the animals diets. On the basis of this and other research, they ultimately determined that the diet should contain at least 25 percent of fat as saturated fat. Among the food fats that they tested, the one found to have the best proportion of saturated fat was lard, the very fat we are told to avoid under all circumstances!

These are some of the complex but vital reasons we need to include palm oil, coconut oil, butter and lard in our diets.

Source. (http://www.westonaprice.org/knowyourfats/import_sat_fat.html)

Mary Enid is the author of Know Your Fats: The Complete Primer for Understanding the Nutrition of Fats, Oils and Cholesterol.

[reefedjib]

If you are doing this very low carb diet with lots of fats can't you just have mostly good fats? Use the monounsaturated and polyunsaturated fats like olive oil, canola oil, almonds, walnuts, olives, avacado, etc. rather than saturated fats. Does this work in your type of diet or are you supposed to eat animal fats? I ditched the statins a long time ago because of eating the healthier fats and have always kept it that way since. I also stay away from transfats in margarine and will use an occasional pat of unsalted butter. This is what works for me. BTW, some people believe that using olive oil to saute in destroys its nutritional value and this is a pure fallacy.

Well, I am mixing it up. I didn't have any meat tonight. I'll have my share of chicken, pork and fish. Then again, I'll have beef (steak, london broil, ground) and lamb too. I am just starting so I'll make sure I eat enough to stave of hunger right now.

From what I have been reading, it sounds like they are saying that a moderate amount of meat, with saturated fats right?, is ok. Red meat evidently has some needed nutrients. BUt I am not knowledgible about this. My readings are saying that the medical establishment has the complete wrong approach to dieting and nutrition. Does this include warnings about the dangers of saturated fat?

[Chef Barrae]

The World Health Organization did a 30 year study on the Mediterranen diet and longevity. They concluded that it was the diet, heavy in olive oil, that contributed to the life expectancy and good health, especially in Greece.

"The traditional diets of Mediterranean countries are
based on fruits, vegetables, seafoods, legumes and cereals
and, of course, olive oil. Total fat may be high, around or in
excess of 40 % of total energy intake in Greece. It should
be remembered that consumption of added lipids in Greece
is higher than the total fat intake in the United States (Byrd-
Bredbenner et al. 2000), yet the incidence of heart disease
and as well as colorectal, breast and prostate cancer is
higher in the United States, suggesting that these differences are not due to the amount of fat consumed but
rather the type of fat and other components of the diet
(Mattson & Grundy, 1985; Mensink & Katan, 1987;
Trichopoulou, 1992)."

The study was very interesting and was published in the Brittish Journal of Nutrition.

[cyberus]

Granny, I am on simvastatin and it is supposed to reduce LDL ... it just does not raise HDL.

Anyhow, John, Rob, et al, yes, there are people here who LOWERED their total cholesterol and LDL and trigs, and raised HDL (I suspect by exercising), by low-carbing and attendant weight loss.

Trigs definitely lower by lower-carbing. The source of trigs IS dietary carb.

Suffice it to say, it is a paradoxical and unexpected finding, to lower cholesterol strictly through low-carbing ... and yet, it is a finding for quite a few people here.

(raises hand)

I'm one of the people that raised my good, lowered my bad and lowered my trigs on low carb.
I personally don't spend any time watching fat or calories but I did eliminate all hydrogenated fats and oils (margarine for instance) simply because I have my suspicions (from some things I've run across here and there) that excess trans-fats have more to do with our cholesterol issues than regular fats. YMMV :)

[Granny Shanny]

If you are doing this very low carb diet with lots of fats can't you just have mostly good fats? Use the monounsaturated and polyunsaturated fats like olive oil, canola oil, almonds, walnuts, olives, avacado, etc. rather than saturated fats. Does this work in your type of diet or are you supposed to eat animal fats? I ditched the statins a long time ago because of eating the healthier fats and have always kept it that way since. I also stay away from transfats in margarine and will use an occasional pat of unsalted butter. This is what works for me. BTW, some people believe that using olive oil to saute in destroys its nutritional value and this is a pure fallacy.

If your lipid levels bear out that using only plant oils and avoiding animal fat and statins works for you, you should surely continue doing it. Your situation is precarious enough right now, that if what you're doing is keeping your blood levels under control, then don't monkey around.

I don't use lard or anything with trans fats; I use only olive oil & canola oil, but I also use butter and cream freely, and my lipid levels speak for themselves.

[Chef Barrae]

Well, I am mixing it up. I didn't have any meat tonight. I'll have my share of chicken, pork and fish. Then again, I'll have beef (steak, london broil, ground) and lamb too. I am just starting so I'll make sure I eat enough to stave of hunger right now.

From what I have been reading, it sounds like they are saying that a moderate amount of meat, with saturated fats right?, is ok. Red meat evidently has some needed nutrients. BUt I am not knowledgible about this. My readings are saying that the medical establishment has the complete wrong approach to dieting and nutrition. Does this include warnings about the dangers of saturated fat?

Don't get me wrong, I love a good steak every now and again. But there are lean protein choices that can be made also but I do not know if that is how your particular diet plan works. I don't know if it is dependant upon eating high saturated fats to work. All I know is by my experiences with more of a Mediterranean style diet high in olive oil, etc. I guess you just have to keep researching and reading about the diet plan you are following and if it works for you and your levels are good then go for it. But, in my opinion, if someone is telling me that the entire medical establishment got something completely wrong, I run the other way. But, that's because I have a very influencial physician, on the national level, in my family. ;)

[reefedjib]

The World Health Organization did a 30 year study on the Mediterranen diet and longevity. They concluded that it was the diet, heavy in olive oil, that contributed to the life expectancy and good health, especially in Greece.

"The traditional diets of Mediterranean countries are
based on fruits, vegetables, seafoods, legumes and cereals
and, of course, olive oil. Total fat may be high, around or in
excess of 40 % of total energy intake in Greece. It should
be remembered that consumption of added lipids in Greece
is higher than the total fat intake in the United States (Byrd-
Bredbenner et al. 2000), yet the incidence of heart disease
and as well as colorectal, breast and prostate cancer is
higher in the United States, suggesting that these differences are not due to the amount of fat consumed but
rather the type of fat and other components of the diet
(Mattson & Grundy, 1985; Mensink & Katan, 1987;
Trichopoulou, 1992)."

The study was very interesting and was published in the Brittish Journal of Nutrition.



Interesting. I naively ask, could the increase in fat in the diets of Grecians also reduce the carbohydrates, and this would account for the better health? Could the conclusion be wrong?

[Granny Shanny]

But, in my opinion, if someone is telling me that the entire medical establishment got something completely wrong, I run the other way. But, that's because I have a very influencial physician, on the national level, in my family. ;)

And I'm married to one. Being "influential" doesn't make them right about everything, and it SURE doesn't make the AMA & all the other medical assocations right all the time.

[reefedjib]

Don't get me wrong, I love a good steak every now and again. But there are lean protein choices that can be made also but I do not know if that is how your particular diet plan works. I don't know if it is dependant upon eating high saturated fats to work. All I know is by my experiences with more of a Mediterranean style diet high in olive oil, etc. I guess you just have to keep researching and reading about the diet plan you are following and if it works for you and your levels are good then go for it. But, in my opinion, if someone is telling me that the entire medical establishment got something completely wrong, I run the other way. But, that's because I have a very influencial physician, on the national level, in my family. ;)

All I know about the diet plan I am following is 6g carbs for breakfast, 12g carbs for lunch and 12g carbs for dinner. No snacking. Lots of stuff to not eat. No particular warnings about the kinds of fat I am consuming.

As far as the medical establishment goes, the experts used to think the world was flat, and even persisted in that view in light of contrary evidence. It's like they had a vested interest in not admitting they were wrong. ;)

[Granny Shanny]

Interesting. I naively ask, could the increase in fat in the diets of Grecians also reduce the carbohydrates, and this would account for the better health? Could the conclusion be wrong?

Makes sense to me. The fats help with satiety, so there could be less carb intake for that reason alone.

[Chef Barrae]

And I'm married to one. Being "influential" doesn't make them right about everything, and it SURE doesn't make the AMA & all the other medical assocations right all the time.

Quite true, but with such a broad based statement that the entire medical commuity is completely wrong, I have to start by at least asking for the imperical evidence that proves they are right.

[Chef Barrae]

Interesting. I naively ask, could the increase in fat in the diets of Grecians also reduce the carbohydrates, and this would account for the better health? Could the conclusion be wrong?

Their better health is based on a few things and the increased amount of olive oil is one of them. The other things include a diet of mainly fruits and vegetables, limited proteins (usually served as a side dish rather than a main course) but proteins mainly of seafood. Their diet includes an abundance of flavinoids also, which are extremely beneficial to good health. I don't know which conclusion possibly being wrong you are referring to. If you mean about the Mediterranean diet, no, I do not believe the conclusions are wrong. There have been many studies.

[Abra]

My Dad was a professor of medicine at Stanford, and what he knew about nutrition could be stuffed into a peanut shell and still leave room for allergies!

It's awfully complex, though, and it's really too bad that we have to figure this out for ourselves. Good thing we're all smarter than the average bear, but hey, what about those average bears? They must really be suffering.

[Granny Shanny]

Quite true, but with such a broad based statement that the entire medical commuity is completely wrong, I have to start by at least asking for the imperical evidence that proves they are right.

Where have we said that the medical community is "completely wrong" all the time? We say their guidelines are too loose (and their attention span too short!), we've said that we know more about diabetes than some of our docs, and that is absolutely true. I might add that there's entirely too much politickin' going on in the medical community too. But I don't think we've made the blanket statement that you suggest.

What Abra says corroborates my own experience. My husband has tried to watch his weight his entire adult life - dieting and "suffering" (in his words), and yet when I met him, it took me about two seconds to figure out he didn't know sic 'em about nutrition.

[reefedjib]

Their better health is based on a few things and the increased amount of olive oil is one of them. The other things include a diet of mainly fruits and vegetables, limited proteins (usually served as a side dish rather than a main course) but proteins mainly of seafood. Their diet includes an abundance of flavinoids also, which are extremely beneficial to good health. I don't know which conclusion possibly being wrong you are referring to. If you mean about the Mediterranean diet, no, I do not believe the conclusions are wrong. There have been many studies.

I don't doubt that olive oil and their diet is healthy. That's the data in this particular study. If their conclusions were reached by stating the assumption that dietary fat causes heart disease, and so the specific type of fat found in their diet is good for us, then the other types of fat not found in their diet is BAD. So the saturated fats are the looked for culprits. But it is possible that their assumption is wrong.

[reefedjib]

Quite true, but with such a broad based statement that the entire medical commuity is completely wrong, I have to start by at least asking for the imperical evidence that proves they are right.

I believe the book "Good Calories, Bad Calories" by Gary Taubes may provide the evidence you are looking for. I have just started the book today and haven't made much progress yet, but Taubes is lauded as being a very thorough science journalist who writes for Science. He evidently packs the book with actual research.

Personally, I have heard the personal stories of many here and read about Dr. Bernstein and Dr. Atkins as being rebels against the machine. I trust that they have something going for them for that reason alone. But then I am an old punk rocker who likes to rebel. :cool:

[Chef Barrae]

I don't doubt that olive oil and their diet is healthy. That's the data in this particular study. If their conclusions were reached by stating the assumption that fat causes heart disease, and so the specific type of fat found in their diet is good for us, then the other types of fat not found in their diet is BAD. So the saturated fats are the looked for culprits. But it is possible that their assumption is wrong.

Well, I suppose anything is possible but there have been many studies on the Mediterranean diet and health. Or are you saying that the assumption that saturated fats causing heart disease is wrong? For me, until proven differently with real imperical data and studies, I will go with what is widely accepted by international health experts. I guess, just like almost anything else, you can find data to back up whatever side you take. If it is right for you and working for you then keep doing it. That is probably the best study you'll ever find, yourself.

[Chef Barrae]

I believe the book "Good Calories, Bad Calories" by Gary Taubes may provide the evidence you are looking for. I have just started the book today and haven't made much progress yet, but Taubes is lauded as being a very thorough science journalist who writes for Science. He evidently packs the book with actual research.

Personally, I have heard the personal stories of many here and read about Dr. Bernstein and Dr. Atkins as being rebels against the machine. I trust that they have something going for them for that reason alone. But then I am an old punk rocker who likes to rebel. :cool:

Ramones? I am an old deadhead who actually remembers the shows! Talk about rebelling! lol!

[reefedjib]

Ramones? I am an old deadhead who actually remembers the shows! Talk about rebelling! lol!

There you go! ;) I saw them at Lollapalooza. I was too young in the eighties, then I moved to Germany, having enlisted in the Army. Talk about establishment! I was never that into the dead, although I caught a show. They were fun. 7 Seconds, Black Flag, Days Of, Corrosion of Conformity, X, Pixies, all great stuff. I have no idea what is considered good music anymore. :o

[reefedjib]

Or are you saying that the assumption that saturated fats causing heart disease is wrong?

I am too new in learning all this stuff and the biochemistry of it to say. But is it possible?

[Chef Barrae]

There you go! ;) I saw them at Lollapalooza. I was too young in the eighties, then I moved to Germany, having enlisted in the Army. Talk about establishment! I was never that into the dead, although I caught a show. They were fun. 7 Seconds, Black Flag, Days Of, Corrosion of Conformity, X, Pixies, all great stuff. I have no idea what is considered good music anymore. :o

LOL! I don't know what these kids listen to today! :eek: And I feel really, really, really old now because I don't have a clue who those bands are that you mentioned! :eek: :eek: :eek: Sorry to go so far OT.

[Granny Shanny]

I am too new in learning all this stuff and the biochemistry of it to say. But is it possible?

Yes it's possible. Meat and eggs got a bad and unjustified rap for years.

You're on the right track with Taubes' "Good Calories, Bad Calories".

[Chef Barrae]

I am too new in learning all this stuff and the biochemistry of it to say. But is it possible?

Maybe you would be better served to discuss it with your doctor? You may or may not choose to believe his or her answers but at least you can get them. Frankly, they blame animal fats for much more than just heart disease. There are findings that it also causes certain types of cancer, too. Talk to your doc and keep reading. The most important thing is to find what works for you. You can tweek it when you get your BG under control.

[fgummett]

I am not in the least convinced that there is any evidence that eating saturated fat increases the risk of Cardio-Vascular Disease (CVD) and with that hypothesis having been around for decades you'd think there really should be some proof by now.

OK how about another assumption "steak = saturated fat" right..?

Here's something to chew over from the aforementioned Gary Taubes (with my bold emphasis)...Consider a porterhouse, select cut steak, with a half-centimeter layer of fat, the nutritional constituents of which can be found in the Nutrient Database for Standard Reference at the USDA Web site. After broiling, this porterhouse reduces to a serving of almost equal parts fat and protein. Fifty-one percent of the fat is monounsaturated, of which virtually all (90%) is oleic acid, the same healthy fat that’s in olive oil. Saturated fat constitutes 45% of the total fat, but a third of that is stearic acid, which is, at the very least, harmless. The remaining 4% of the fat is polyunsaturated, which also improves cholesterol levels. In sum, well over half — and perhaps as much as 70% — of the fat content of a porterhouse will improve cholesterol levels compared to what they would be if bread, potatoes, or pasta were consumed instead. The remaining 30% will raise LDL but will also raise HDL. All of this suggests that eating a porterhouse steak rather than carbohydrates might actually improve heart disease risk

USDA National Nutrient Database... (http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/)

Real whole food is rarely made up of just one nutrient. If [saturated] fat is so bad how come so much of our natural food comes prepackaged with it? How did we survive as a species without factories to make Canola oil?

Add me to the camp of those with much improved cholesterol/lipids after over a year now of eating very low refined/concentrated Carbs and eating ad libitum of Fats and Proteins... but of course this is just my personal experience YMMV :)

[fgummett]

Sorry it's early in the morning and the edit session timed out... I just wanted to add...

There are any number of myths and assumptions out there that people accept as truth without ever doing a fact check for themselves... frankly I take most of what I read from the media with a grain of salt. In my opinion we each of us need to be doing more reading and research for ourselves and I applaud Rob for being proactive in his own quest for knowledge.

[reefedjib]

Sorry it's early in the morning and the edit session timed out... I just wanted to add...

There are any number of myths and assumptions out there that people accept as truth without ever doing a fact check for themselves... frankly I take most of what I read from the media with a grain of salt. In my opinion we each of us need to be doing more reading and research for ourselves and I applaud Rob for being proactive in his own quest for knowledge.

Aww, shucks. Thanks Frank. I get turned on by science and learning how things work. And I especially like a controversy!

A porterhouse is a BIG steak.

[fgummett]

I guess I'm just trying to say that there are a lot of things which we think are established facts, that we take for granted and yet on closer examination they don't hold up:

We have been brainwashed that red-meat is "bad" and while I'm not suggesting we eat steak for every meal maybe you can adjust your thinking based on the data from the USDA as above. Incidentally if you do visit that USDA site you may also note that steak is rich in just about every Vitamin and Mineral as well -- with the possible exception of Vitamin C.

By the same token we toss out terms like "low-fat", or "low-carb" or "Mediterranean Diet" as if these are clearly defined and cast in stone -- these terms are non-specific and they do not mean the same thing to everyone. The various peoples who live on and around the Med. have some of the most varied diets in the World. AND as is often pointed out if I try to use examples such as the Inuit in these discussions... I do not (nor did my recent ancestors) live on or around the Med.

With so much confusing "evidence" from all sides I simply think that we need to get back to basics and focus on real whole foods... as close to the stuff that we as a species have been eating forever.

That is my personal opinion and my chosen approach which so far seems to be working very well for me... but of course YMMV.

As above I think the focus on cholesterol is bogus as what we really need to fix is BG management.

[Abra]

Chef Barrae, are you following a Mediterranean diet yourself? Can you tell us what kind of numbers you are getting with that, and what meds you take? Theory is interesting, but practice is better, and I'd be very interested to see how your theories play out in practice.

[foxl]

I am not married to a physician, nor do I play one on TV ... I just work in a medical school. And, I used to work in a Dietetics and Nutrition Department affiliated with a Medical School, and I had to sit in meetings and hear some of the nonsense, and I found out just HOW the nonsense became dogma, by working for a researcher ...

Read the Gary Taubes book, to me there is a huge ring of truth in his explanation of how things went the wrong way.

Read Gary Taubes.

[foxl]

... and I would add, at BOTH of the medical schools I have worked at,

a) Biochemistry is two semesters of undergrad work, only;

b) Nutrition is an ELECTIVE course and one prof unashamedly told me they made it easy to pass, in order to keep enrollment up (kind like the ADA with their "easy" criteria for good control?).

[Grunch]

If [saturated] fat is so bad how come so much of our natural food comes prepackaged with it? How did we survive as a species without factories to make Canola oil?

Because no one ever said that saturated fats will kill you before 13 years old. What the medical community thinks is that they can cause heart disease at an advanced age. This makes no difference for our survival as a species, in fact it may even be helpful to eliminate the old guys. Avoiding diseases that come at an advanced age only became important when we decided that we wanted to live 100 years and started doing research to try to figure out what would help us live as long as possible.

[sumi]

I am also not a medical researcher or doctor, although I HAVE played one for my 3 year old granddaughter. I thought it pertinent to pull up my old lipid post as an example of the contradiction between dietary advice and reality. I have no theories as to why these numbers changed so significantly, but feel it must be diet as my exercise level remained fairly constant.

Many of us low carbers must take quite a leap of faith to believe that our lipid profiles will actually improve when we replace carbs with fats. Probably all of us dread our first new lipid profile after making the switch. After an anxious wait, I finally received mine. This is about 5 months into a low carb, high fat diet. I have also included my start numbers and the normal range, all of which I had in a chart form which will not paste into this forum. l included American conversion in brackets.
Total CHOL: Start 6.19 (240) Now 4.04 (156) Normal 2.0 -5.19 (>200)
Triglycerides: Start 2.41 (215) Now .78 (69.5) Normal .45-2.29(<150)
HDL - CHOL: Start 1.34 (52) Now 1.36 (53) Normal >1.10 (>.43)
Chol:HDL Ratio: Start 4.62 (.216) Now 2.97 (.336) Normal <4.0 (>.30)
LDL CHOL: Start 3.75 (145) Now 2.33 (90) Normal >5.0,3.5,2.0 (100)**
**The LDL normal numbers are dependent on risk factor (low risk is 5.0, medium is 3.5, and high is 2.0). As diabetics, we are considered at high risk, so I want to get my number under 2.0.
Getting these results has been a huge relief to me, and I hope will keep up the spirits of those who are still waiting. I can now admit without guilt to eating at least a dozen eggs a week, and enjoying a pork chop, steak or other beef at least 3 times per week

[reefedjib]

Maybe you would be better served to discuss it with your doctor? You may or may not choose to believe his or her answers but at least you can get them. Frankly, they blame animal fats for much more than just heart disease. There are findings that it also causes certain types of cancer, too. Talk to your doc and keep reading. The most important thing is to find what works for you. You can tweek it when you get your BG under control.

I most definitely will be discussing this with my doctor and my nutritionist. My doctor doesn't really have time to go into dieting details. My nutritionist is of the opinion that low-fat is appropriate but recognizes that low-carb helps to. She recommends a balanced diet, which is what I have been eating.

As Linda suggests, read Good Calories, Bad Calories (http://www.amazon.com/Good-Calories-Bad-Controversial-Science/dp/1400033462/ref=ed_oe_p) by Gary Taubes.

Here is an article by Gary Taubes that you may find interesting, called What If Its All Been A Big Fat Lie (http://www.diabetes-book.com/cms/articles/3-advice-a-commentary/7416-what-if-its-all-been-a-big-fat-lie). I think it probably fits with the Med diet as well. Here is an excerpt:

Few experts now deny that the low-fat message is radically oversimplified. If nothing else, it effectively ignores the fact that unsaturated fats, like olive oil, are relatively good for you: they tend to elevate your good cholesterol, high-density lipoprotein (H.D.L.), and lower your bad cholesterol, low-density lipoprotein (L.D.L.), at least in comparison to the effect of carbohydrates. While higher L.D.L. raises your heart-disease risk, higher H.D.L. reduces it.

What this means is that even saturated fats -- a k a, the bad fats -- are not nearly as deleterious as you would think. True, they will elevate your bad cholesterol, but they will also elevate your good cholesterol. In other words, it's a virtual wash. As Willett explained to me, you will gain little to no health benefit by giving up milk, butter and cheese and eating bagels instead.

[Granny Shanny]

I'm saying the same thing, Susan . . . my numbers (in my signature) speak for themselves. It may defy some peoples' logic, but there's no denying it works for many of us.

Getting these results has been a huge relief to me, and I hope will keep up the spirits of those who are still waiting. I can now admit without guilt to eating at least a dozen eggs a week, and enjoying a pork chop, steak or other beef at least 3 times per week

Total CHOL: Start 6.19 (240) Now 4.04 (156) Normal 2.0 -5.19 (>200)
Triglycerides: Start 2.41 (215) Now .78 (69.5) Normal .45-2.29(<150)
HDL - CHOL: Start 1.34 (52) Now 1.36 (53) Normal >1.10 (>.43)
Chol:HDL Ratio: Start 4.62 (.216) Now 2.97 (.336) Normal <4.0 (>.30)
LDL CHOL: Start 3.75 (145) Now 2.33 (90) Normal >5.0,3.5,2.0 (100)**
**The LDL normal numbers are dependent on risk factor (low risk is 5.0, medium is 3.5, and high is 2.0). As diabetics, we are considered at high risk, so I want to get my number under 2.0.

[Subby]

Not discounting your observations at all, I do see that you are both on statins. How do you see them fitting in the picture of your cholesterol changes?

[Granny Shanny]

I see my entire regimen working together to attain a healthy lipids level.

I also visualize getting OFF the statin after while, because it interfers with my enjoyment of grapefruit and grapefruit juice! :(

[Subby]

That strikes me as a healthy and reasonable attitude Granny. And if you're hankering for a grapefruit, sounds like another reason to give them a miss some time, as well as seeing if you need them any more so to speak.

I guess I was more asking along the lines of, whether you had taken them for long, noticed change when you went on them or sometimes after, etc, whether you thought they were contributing or not. Can be hard to tell, I know. Statins are one of those thorny issues that I tend to chew over and I am pretty sure I am not alone. They are legitimately controversial to my mind, or perhaps to put it another way there are a few large question marks over them, and the couple I have tried in the past give me side effects. Speaking for myself, they certainly lowered my cholesterol at the time.

[Granny Shanny]

My feelings exactly. I hope I can ditch the statin before very long. Getting the triglyceride lower and the HDL a little higher is the next goal, and I think it'll come with the additional exercise I'm finally getting.

My lipids have been borderline but stable for 20+ years; I've been obese for longer than that, but there were no other compromising conditions, so doc & I just let it ride. When I hit 60, I DID ask him if he didn't think we could stop worrying so much about heart disease due to family history, because I'd surely have shown some signs in 60 years if I ever were going to, and he agreed with that.

Then when the elevated FBG popped up last fall, we weren't quick to follow up because at that point, in all honesty, it was only 130, and we were taken up with the implementation & recuperation of DH's hip replacement surgery.

Once we got DH back on his feet, I had a FBG at the public health department, and they forwarded the results (163) to my doc. With the diabetes diagnosis came the advice from doc that those lipids levels may have been tolerable in a "normal" patient, but with diabetes we'll have to be more careful. Thus the levostatin.

[sumi]

I quit my (low dose) statin 2 months ago, so will be seeing my next test without it. Even though I was only taking 5 mg, I felt it may have been causing muscle pain and weakness- that has disappeared since I stopped.

[notme]

I quit my (low dose) statin 2 months ago, so will be seeing my next test without it. Even though I was only taking 5 mg, I felt it may have been causing muscle pain and weakness- that has disappeared since I stopped.



I did the same sumi. However, my cholesterol is off the charts right now, even with excellent eating habits. My doctor and I will revisit this subject the end of Sept. He wants me on a statin, I won't take one. I am hoping that my numbers will have improved with even better diet and eh hem.... exercise. I am back to walking 2.5 miles and I need to start resistance training.

Always goals to achieve. :o

[fgummett]

Nancy, based on your post in the recent Triglycerides poll : Mine were 63 six months ago and went up to 72 my last test. My A1c was also up a bit due to bad quicksets.

Now this being said my total cholesterol was up to 306 My LDL 195 and HDL 96. My doctor wants me on statins. I am still fighting.I cannot believe that your Doctor would be insisting on Statins... your HDL and Trigs are excellent and based on your Trigs I'd suggest you have no concerns with that LDL volume. You do realise that the Total-C includes the HDL, so by getting an higher HDL you raise the Total-C..? And as you rightly say, tighter BG control --without the Quickset grief -- will give you even better Trigs.

Did you read the PDF I have linked several times relating to LDL particle size? I suggest you print a copy for your Doctor... The Role of LDL Particle Size Assessment (http://www.centerforpreventivemedicine.com/04114med_messenger.pdf)

It is also my understanding that what little evidence there is to support the use of Statins is based on trials of middle-aged men who'd already had cardiac events... it is highly questionably as to whether any of the cholesterol guidelines should be applied to women in the same way at all.