Is low carb for everyone?

[Abra]

As I've been documenting in the 6-12-12 club thread, I've been eating 30 grams of carbs a day for about 10 days now. At first, I saw a beautiful drop of BGs into the 80s and 90s all the time, but lately it's been creeping back up in a heartbreaking way, and I'm not losing any weight, even though I'm exercising a lot.

Has anyone ever seen something like this happen? Any theories about why sticking to a very low carb diet wouldn't produce the desired results?

[Dis-N-Dat]

Hi Abra:

First I think there isn't a one size fits all diet. Eventually everyone finds something that works for them. For me it's
<15 g of carbs a day and I'm careful not to consume too much fat as well as focusing on portion control (my biggest weakness). That's the only thing that's kept my numbers low and the weight loss continuous.

Don't be too sad, though, maybe this is only a plateau. You might want to stick with it a while longer before making a final decision.

[ShottleBop]

It can take a few weeks for your body (and brain) to adjust to the new regime, as well. (Although I didn't have any issues, the changeover can cause what Jimmy Moore, of Livin' La Vida Low Carb, calls the "Atkins flu.")

It may help to understand some of the biochemistry behind the low-carb recommendation. Dr. Bernstein's book, Diabetes Solution, has an appendix that discusses the issue; James Carlson's book, Genocide: How Your Doctor's Dietary Ignorance Will Kill You, describes it as if he were sitting with you, knocking back a few (low-carb), and does it very well. (He is a doctor with an undergraduate degree in biochemistry, and became an advocate of low-carbing after himself having the same trouble his patients were having losing weight while adhering to the low-fat/high carb diet recommended by the medical establishment.)

ETA: and remember that there are many other factors, such as stress, inflammations, other things going on in your body and life generally, that can affect your BGs. I've been eating low-carb for about a year and a half. When I started, my BGs were mostly in the 110-115 range. Now, my average is in the low 90s--but I still have days when I wake up with a 102 or a 104.

[reefedjib]

It may help to understand some of the biochemistry behind the low-carb recommendation. Dr. Bernstein's book, Diabetes Solution, has an appendix that discusses the issue

Which Appendix? I just looked through the book and didn't see it.

[Granny Shanny]

When I first began, I followed doc's advice to keep it under 100g of carbs. I now realize that isn't particularly low. At that time I weeded out the most flagrant offenders like potatoes, rice & white bread. But I was spinning my wheels.

So I reduced it by about half, and that got me going. Now I think I prob'ly take in between 30-50g daily - I'm not as compulsive about writing it all down as I was in the beginning, but that's because many of my meals contain no carbs at all - i.e. sausage & eggs for breakfast - no toast, no cereal, etc.

So my answer would prob'ly not be "low" carb, but "lower" carb. Atkins or South Beach Diet wouldn't work for me - too extreme (and far too much product placement!).

[ShottleBop]

Also, when, and how, you exercise can also affect BGs. Dr. Bernstein, for example, recommends that you not exercise in the morning. This exchange is from one of his monthly teleconferences:

What can cause blood sugars to go up sometimes after exercise?

Usually it's exercising in the morning within three hours of arising. I’ve seen patients who have blood sugars go up after exercise at other times of the day, but that's rare.

Dr. Bernstein has a teleconference coming up this Monday, the 31st (at 7PM CST, 8PM EST, 6PM MST , 5PM PST). People send in questions about diabetes and 6-12-12, and he answers them, for an hour. Send me a PM if you're interested, and I'll send you the link where you can register. (You can listen online, as well as by calling in.)

[PERKDOUG]

An opinion:

"Beginner" low carbers often overeat protein. Remember that excess protein can be converted to glucose. The Type 2 liver is shall we say, all to good at doing this. As a ballpark figure your daily input of meat,cheese and eggs totaled should be about one pound. This is my opinion of an approximate guideline.

[ShottleBop]

Which Appendix? I just looked through the book and didn't see it.

Appendix A (What About the Widely Advocated Dietary Restrictions on Fat, Protein, and Salt, and the Current High-Fiber Fad?). His discussion is more cursory than many, but he recommends Gary Taubes' 2002 article, "What if it's All Been a Big Fat Lie?" (http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/07/magazine/what-if-it-s-all-been-a-big-fat-lie.html) [this is a link to the article], for further elucidation (and, of course, Gary Taubes has since come out with Good Calories, Bad Calories [this is not a link], which is exhaustive). I have read that book, as well, but find Carlson's book a breezier read.

Note that even Dr. Bernstein acknowledges that his diet may not be for everyone, as he notes in that same Appendix A: " Actual results are the yardstick for an appropriate diet." He does recommend that, to really determine whether 6-12-12 works for you, you give it at least three months, and recommends that you do it under a doctor's supervision.

[ShottleBop]

An opinion:

"Beginner" low carbers often overeat protein. Remember that excess protein can be converted to glucose. The Type 2 liver is shall we say, all to good at doing this. As a ballpark figure your daily input of meat,cheese and eggs totaled should be about one pound. This is my opinion of an approximate guideline.

Good point, PERKDOUG--and one that is very hard for us, trained to think that fat is bad, to come to grips with. (Uffe Ravnskov has a three-part article on the bad science underlying the rap against saturated (not trans-) fat, over at spacedoc.net.)

[notme]

On the other side of the coin, I eat low fat, low carb with my meat being mostly salmon and fish. I eat leafy green salads, low carb bread with no flour, greek yogurt and berries with uncooked oatmeal sprinkled on top and almonds (raw). I do drink a small amount of alcohol and eat cheeses in small portions. I have lost well over fifteen pounds

I cannot eat high fat and tons of protein. It makes me physically ill. So far my blood work is good and my A1C is coming down. I think I stick to about 50-60 grams of carbs per day.

So, as you see, we all do it just a bit different here. What you need to do is make a list of foods you enjoy, try a few new ones and test your blood sugar to see what you tolerate. Then make sure you figure out a small enough portion so you are not hungry and large enough that you feel like you have had something to eat. Drink plenty of fluids. That helps me a lot.

[foxl]

I do think lower than is recommended by the American Dietetic Assn IS for everyone.

I am not on lowest carb, I stay under 100 g per day happily.

Nothing, no diet, is for everyone.

I think we each must experiment and see what works for our body, and no one should rule out low-carb on the basis of fear or distaste.

[Dis-N-Dat]

An opinion:

"Beginner" low carbers often overeat protein. Remember that excess protein can be converted to glucose. The Type 2 liver is shall we say, all to good at doing this. As a ballpark figure your daily input of meat,cheese and eggs totaled should be about one pound. This is my opinion of an approximate guideline.

Great point! It also makes your kidneys work harder which isn't helpful, they're under enough stress with the diabetes.

Oh yeah, don't forget to drink a goodly amount of water, especially with meals.

[xMenace]

An opinion:

"Beginner" low carbers often overeat protein. Remember that excess protein can be converted to glucose. The Type 2 liver is shall we say, all to good at doing this. As a ballpark figure your daily input of meat,cheese and eggs totaled should be about one pound. This is my opinion of an approximate guideline.

I find this true. Too much protein equals not so much weight loss and not as good sugars. Gluconeogenesis. I find it tough to fill one's self on fat though. I guess I need to eat more veggies with fat thrown on.

[Abra]

All together I probably am eating more than a pound a day, if cheese and eggs are included, but it's because otherwise I'm hungry. I'm used to filling up on vegetables, massive amounts by most people's standards, and I haven't hit a point yet where I'm no longer hungry at mealtime. I'm rarely hungry between meals, although possibly I'd do better with snacks, but I'm not sure how to count my BG when snacking, plus Bernstein says to go 4-5 hours after eating before eating again.

I do tend to exercise in the morning, though, so I'll work on changing that. I drink lots of water, so I don't think it could be that. I'd forgotten that he said to give it three months, so I guess I'll hang in there for a while. But my brain is telling me that I need more carbs, not less. Dratted brain!

[ShottleBop]

All together I probably am eating more than a pound a day, if cheese and eggs are included, but it's because otherwise I'm hungry. I'm used to filling up on vegetables, massive amounts by most people's standards, and I haven't hit a point yet where I'm no longer hungry at mealtime. I'm rarely hungry between meals, although possibly I'd do better with snacks, but I'm not sure how to count my BG when snacking, plus Bernstein says to go 4-5 hours after eating before eating again.

I do tend to exercise in the morning, though, so I'll work on changing that. I drink lots of water, so I don't think it could be that. I'd forgotten that he said to give it three months, so I guess I'll hang in there for a while. But my brain is telling me that I need more carbs, not less. Dratted brain!

The 4-5 hours is mainly for people using insulin, so that your results will be more predictable (no dueling boluses). He does permit snacking, with carbs for a snack limited to the number allocated to the preceding meal. (Personally, I hardly ever make it from breakfast to lunch without an ounce of almonds, and I tend to need something at 4-4:30, as well.)

[GeishaGirl]

I find that I gained weight on low carb, and my sugars were only good for a few days before my body adjusted, then they went back to "so so". Instead, I've found that on days when I eat little to no gluten, my sugars are almost perfect. I can eat cups of rice, but not a single slice of bread. It's bizarre.

[Abra]

I'm not eating any gluten at all, because before Dx I thought I was gluten intolerant. I guess it was carb intolerant, but the no gluten thing has kind of stuck with me.

[ljjhouser]

When diagnosed on a Friday (5 weeks ago)(and ignorant) - I refused to eat anything other salads. Of course by Monday, I was so weak I couldn't take the trash out. I called the doctor - I was told to eat protein with each meal. My A1c was 10.7 - bg 276. For about two weeks, I was very careful about eating anythings with carbs - no bread, no pasta and such. I went to a nutritionist and was told the following guidlines - about 2-3 carb choices per meal (90-135 per day). I found it difficult to eat that many carbs after cutting them off entirely. After reading the posts - and THANK YOU PERKDOG I did not know excess protein converted to gluclose. I am almost sure I now eat too much protein. I have lost about 40 pounds and still lose at about 1 per week. My numbers in the last 5 weeks have dropped to Before meal avg - 107 and After meal average - 121. It seems very difficult to get under 100. I would like very much to control this without meds. It will be about another month before my next doctor app. for another A1c. As a general guideline, would I be better to reduce carb intake?? It would be easy to do - I think. Any Thoughts?;)

[fgummett]

My personal view is that not all carbs are bad for us -- just the refined and concentrated ones found in so many of our processed and packaged foods these days... broccoli has carbs but in order to get the same amount of sugar from broccoli as from a bottle of cola, you'd literally have to eat of ton of it.

Real whole food, is my order of the day... preferably local and in-season, grown/reared on nutrient rich land. This means eat whole food, which naturally includes a balance of fat and protein... don't be afraid of fat... its gotten a bad rap.

There are obvious things to watch out for like candy, cola, cakes and sweets... next in line are the "white" foods like bread, pasta, potatoes, rice, breakfast cereal... but even something assumed to be healthy like orange juice has about as much sugar as a cola... fat reduced milk has a higher proportion of lactose (sugar) and so it goes on. That does not mean you need to feel deprived or hungry to eat this way, not by any means.

[Granny Shanny]

If you adopted the nutritionist's guidelines, ljjhouser, you may find that they are too lenient, especially if you aren't using meds. Granted, your original plan was too stringent and left you weak, but there can be a happy medium which fosters lower bg.

Yes, as a general guideline, if I were you I would reduce my carb intake. NOT to your previous level, but perhaps somewhere around 50-60 grams per day. And as Frank says, make sure the carbs you DO get are "real" food! :D

Just my opinion.

[ljjhouser]

Thanks for the help. I have been doing well with the white foods - they are gone - for some reason I did not see potatoe as a white food - I occassionally eat 1/2 of one. The only bread I is double fiber whole grain wheat. Gone forever is the pizza, ice cream, candy, and that stuff. It is easier for me to say I don't eat that rather than try to a spoon full because it is supposed to be OK. (or probably not). I think that is what has been worried about. I went from cutting most things and now I feel like I am working hard to find carbs at each meal. I think I will cut my carb intake to about 60-80 range and see how I feel. It will be easier and I do not feel hungry. I may be expecting too much too soon, but even though my bg is down, I need to see if I can get to and stay under 100 before meals. One more quick question - I am almost embarrassed to ask - I test in the morning (fasting), before dinner, and again when going to bed. As I read other posts, I am unclear about the last testing time. Am I supposed to test at bedtime (which may be 3-4 hours after dinner) OR am I looking for the peak BG after dinner at 1.5-2 hours after I eat. Thanks for your help. I feel a little strange knowing so little about something that so important to us. I am retired (finally) and have never been sick my entire life. I have been fortunate. So this is new to me and I need to get it right. Thanks again, Larry

[fgummett]

No worries Larry... we are constantly reminded here that none of us are experts in Diabetes... best we can hope for is to learn as much as possible about managing our OWN Diabetes :)

There are really no rigid rules I am aware of, about when best to perform the BG tests. Each test is a snapshot in time and the more we do the better the picture we can get about how our BG behaves throughout each day BUT the test strips can be expensive and who wants to go around with sore and bloodied fingers all the time... so we need to compromise.

I have read that the 2 hours postprandial (post-meal) BGs most closely aligns with the A1c results so I'd probably suggest you either add a few of those or switch up on different days between different testing times. Over each day or over a series of days I'd suggest you want to cover off your Fasting BG when first waking, before each meal, 2 hours after each meal and before bed. You might also want to include readings at 1 hour after meals to see how high that meal has spiked you, before and after activity such as the gym or a brisk walk, whenever you feel "out of sorts" and during the night if you wake. As above, more snapshots will give you a clearer overall picture, and as you repeat this over several day, weeks and months you'll begin to notice patterns.

I don't test this much all the time... but every now and then I will devote a few days to more intensive testing. I like to record the numbers in a spreadsheet and make it into a graph which I find useful for me and my Doctors to see how I am doing... BG-wise at least ;)

[cyberus]

Hmmm ... I am a low carber and an advocate for it but ...

... nothing is for everyone in every situation, everything from cancer drugs to antibiotics are dealt with differently by everyone.

That being said ... do I think every type 2 should *try* low carb?

Yup!

But if it doesn't help by all means try something else :D

[mkudsy]

When I started, my BGs were mostly in the 110-115 range. Now, my average is in the low 90s--but I still have days when I wake up with a 102 or a 104.

Hi ShottleBop, after low carbing for 1 year, can you tell me the change of BMI? Thanks