corn! Argh!

[themarquis]

I'm sort of in the prediabetes/very early diabetes camp (for right now at least ;) ) and I've been cutting carbs just like most folks here on these forums. I've generally gotten great results by following a sort of moderate low carb diet. Okay, so 100 grams of carbs a day might be high for some of you folks! :) But it seemed to be working for me and resulting in very good control of my bg for a couple of weeks.

Well ... I've had a few surprises lately. It turns out that corn is like a deadly weapon or something -- I am having crazy fluctuations with it. Does anyone else have this issue? Like whole wheat is not so great either but it is perfectly okay in small portions for me, but corn, corn flour, corn meal, corn syrup ... wow! My bg is thru the roof!! The corn syrup is to be expected, but cornmeal? Really?

I had a 50 point spike with cornmeal a couple of weeks ago -- thought I just overdid it w/ carbs in general. I also had a spike with bbq sauce (interesting b/c the night before I had bbq sauce made with actual sugar, the next night it was a different kind made with corn syrup. No spike night one, big one night 2.)

Now this week, I had a 50 point spike with 2 corn tortillas (30 carbs total -- I generally have over 30 carbs w/ dinner with no problems!). That was with pork, fresh salsa, cheese, avocado, etc.

Then today (yes, I'm kinda not so bright sometimes!) I tried a single corn tortilla with cheese and tons of the fresh homemade salsa (I know tomatoes have some carbs, but I haven't had any trouble w/ them before) and ouch!!! 15 carbs made me spike 30 points (or more -- I could have been on my way down) in 45 minutes (I started feeling like crapola and tested to see what was going on). I think that was just too fast of a rise/drop -- makes me feel nauseous, shaky, etc.

Corn!!! What the heck???

I know ... let your meter be your guide! ;)

Maybe I should try some nice fresh corn on the cob and see what happens, huh?

[Granny Shanny]

All I know is I can't handle it . . . made succotash for supper tonight & cooked just enough for DH to polish off by himself, cuz if there was one spoonful left, I could never resist. And you hadda go mention fresh corn-on-the-cob! You rat!!! :D :D :D

[RobertIA]

themarquis,

Corn of all types and products make from corn affect people in different ways. HFCS is most assuredly a problem for anyone. I can get away with about 3/4 of an ear of fresh corn on the cob, but I can't eat more. I can also eat fresh frozen corn but have to limit it to about 3/4 cup.

Most other corn products don't agree with me and I am okay in removing cornmeal that my wife likes to use as breading on chicken and some other meats. I get a good spike if I leave too much on (more than 10 percent).

Other people have little or no problems with some corn products, but then there are others that can't eat any corn or corn products. So as you are learning from your friend the meter, some things just can't be eaten. I am very lucky in being able to eat a lot of what others can't, but then I can't eat some foods others are able to eat.

Good luck and keep experimenting with you meter.

Bob

[themarquis]

hee hee, granny! Well, I'm expecting that I won't be able to eat fresh corn, either, with the numbers I've been getting with all corn products! Or maybe in very tiny quantities :( But I will have to try, in the spirit of "letting my meter be my guide"! :)

You and Bob must be right that it just varies a ton from person to person. Maybe some folks can eat it and I just can't.

It's certainly not what I would have expected, though. I guess I would have assumed that something like100 percent whole wheat (which I tolerate okay) would be similar to the body as something like cornmeal -- i.e., blood sugar raising and not to be eaten in quantity, but a minimally processed whole grain that an early diabetic could eat a little bit of.

Or ... not!

[Chef Barrae]

Fresh corn on the cob is tricky because the longer it sits after being picked the more starches are converted into sugars. There is a big difference between the two when it comes to bg levels and digestion. You may not know how long your supermarket has had the corn sitting around before you buy it so I generally stick to frozen corn. It is processed immediately when picked so the starches are stable and won't change to sugars. I find no problems whatsoever with using it but that is me. YMMV.
As for corn syrup, one of the worst things you can use. Avoid it like the plague. Not only does it spike your bg but it is also generally unhealthy. You can use agave nectar in its place for recipes.
What are you using cornmeal for or is it just in a product you purchased? Yellow cornmeal has 20 g carbs in one ounce. I've never had a problem with corn tortillas either and am wondering how long after you ate did you test? Are you testing too soon? Your bg will more than likely rise even if you only eat 15 or 30 g carb but it should also come down by the two hour mark afterwards. I wouldn't test before that. That's just my opinion and you need to figure out what works for you. This link may help you. It is to a site where you can enter different foods and find out there complete nutritional values. Good luck to you.
Nutrition Facts and Analysis for Cornmeal, yellow (Navajo) (http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts/ethnic-foods/8152/2)

[fgummett]

Michael Pollan on The Hour (http://www.cbc.ca/thehour/videos.html?id=729498103)

John (xMenace) has this in his signature... I recommend you watch it and even get a copy of this guy's book.

Corn for me is now a bad thing... the farmers who grow it are heavily subsidized... why..? probably because of powerful food industry lobby groups... the result is cheap "foods" and drinks, full of HFCS. Not only that but much of the farmed fish, chicken, beef, pigs etc... that we buy at the store has been raised on Corn and Soy... our entire food chain -- although screaming variety from the store shelves -- is being reduced to just a few cheap fillers.

Not to say that corn itself is "bad" but just we eat sooo much of it... even if we don't realise it.

[Moonglo]

Have you tried low carb tortillas? They come in several different sizes (at least at my grocery store) and have less carbs to begin with, plus more fiber than regular soft tortillas. I can usually have soft tacos, chicken wraps, etc using these with no problem.

[themarquis]

Fresh corn on the cob is tricky because the longer it sits after being picked the more starches are converted into sugars. There is a big difference between the two when it comes to bg levels and digestion. You may not know how long your supermarket has had the corn sitting around before you buy it so I generally stick to frozen corn. It is processed immediately when picked so the starches are stable and won't change to sugars. I find no problems whatsoever with using it but that is me. YMMV.
As for corn syrup, one of the worst things you can use. Avoid it like the plague. Not only does it spike your bg but it is also generally unhealthy. You can use agave nectar in its place for recipes.
What are you using cornmeal for or is it just in a product you purchased? Yellow cornmeal has 20 g carbs in one ounce. I've never had a problem with corn tortillas either and am wondering how long after you ate did you test? Are you testing too soon? Your bg will more than likely rise even if you only eat 15 or 30 g carb but it should also come down by the two hour mark afterwards. I wouldn't test before that. That's just my opinion and you need to figure out what works for you. This link may help you. It is to a site where you can enter different foods and find out there complete nutritional values. Good luck to you.
Nutrition Facts and Analysis for Cornmeal, yellow (Navajo) (http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts/ethnic-foods/8152/2)

Chef, that is interesting about the sugars/starches in fresh and frozen corn. I wonder what happens with cornmeal/corn flour/etc ... could there be some variability depending on when the corn was picked and processed?

I make a lot of stuff (or I used to) with cornmeal. Basically cornbread, corn fritters, cornmeal batter, etc. (my dad's side of the family is from the south, and I grew up eating a lot of beans and cornbread!) Since cornmeal is less processed and has more fiber compared to, say, wheat flour, I thought it might be a good choice for me.

I knew that HFCS would potentially cause problems, and I did have a spike a few weeks ago with a slice of high fiber bread that turned out to have a bunch of it in it. I guess I didn't realize that regular corn syrup (not "high fructose") would have an effect worse than regular sugar. In my mind, I assumed they would be similar, so the two bbq sauces I ate would have similar effects on blood sugar. Guess I was wrong! :)

You might be onto something with the "testing too soon" comment. I've been struggling with an issue where it seems as though I get some kind of spike very soon after eating certain foods -- say 45 minutes to an hour. I can feel it -- I'm shaky, clammy, slightly anxious, and my fingers feel like they're "buzzing" a bit. I know from my meter that I only get that feeling when I jump more than 30 points in a short time period -- usually due to a carb miscalculation or lately, corn.

I assume it's the rapid change in bg (or it could be that as I start coming back down, I get a slight "hypo" feeling -- not sure). Looking back over my numbers from the last couple of weeks, I have a lot of episodes where I go slightly high (140 - 170 ish) then low (80-90) afterwords (reactive hypo). Not "low" as in dangerous -- just lower than I was before eating, which is weird. I think this is okay because at least my bg is going back down pretty fast and (sorta) normalizing. But I would prefer it if I could avoid any of this spiking (since high bg is damaging even if transitory, and also it feels very unpleasant!).

So in short, I'm probably testing too soon because I've been trying to pin down that issue so that I can get off the "roller coaster". But I may need to just give it a rest at some point and cut more carbs or just eliminate all the "obvious" carbs (I seem to do fine with any carbs in whole foods like fruits, vegetables, dairy, etc.) and stop the constant testing!

Thanks for your ideas and input!

[Granny Shanny]

Since it's the severity of the spike that you're trying to determine at that 1-hour interval, I agree with the method you're using since I, like you, would prefer to avoid those spikes entirely.

Even when bg returns to "normal" range after two hours, the A1c will still be showing those 1-hour spikes and people who ignore the 1-hour testing might be saying like: the lab made a mistake - my A1c couldn't possibly be so high - look at my meter averages! :)

And as soon as you start chewing it, starch turns to sugar, regardless of whether it's fresh, frozen, canned or dehydrated. There are resistant starches, which MCS has been experimenting with, things like green bananas . . . and other altered starches such as Hi-Maize cornstarch (http://www.diabetesforums.com/forum/chit-chat/42722-resistant-starch-you-may.html#post498588), but those are a different breed of cat altogether.

Good to check on agave syrup too . . . I've tried it & liked it, but there are differences of opinion about it, just like everything else. Here is a pretty good write-up from consumer advocate Debra Lynn Dadd (http://www.sweetsavvy.com/sweeteners/summary.php?id=Agave%20Nectar). Hailed as "The Queen of Green" by the New York Times, she has been a pioneering consumer advocate since 1982, specializing in products and lifestyle choices that are safer for human health and the environment. She is the author of Home Safe Home.

[Dis-N-Dat]

Corn is a beloved evil that I must now do without. :bawling:

[themarquis]

I would like to try agave -- I've seen it at Whole Foods (for like a million $$ :( ) so maybe soon, I'll pick some up.

I'm not much into sugar -- never have been. I like sweet things every once in a while, but I like them just barely sweet. I think this has helped me with the dietary stuff and it makes more room for other small amounts of carbs here and there where others might eat something sweet.

But there are some places where some kind of sweetener is really needed and there I struggle. I don't like the taste of artificial sweeteners and don't see the point of them. So I'll add a half a teaspoon or a teaspoon of sugar or honey to some things. Like plain yogurt with berries, low carb baked goods, that sort of thing. BBQ sauce always seems to have some sugar -- not sure what to do about that.

Agave would seem like a good alternative for these sorts of things, so I'll have to give it a try.

One interesting thing I've found is that you can use mashed bananas in some things and they are quite sweet. Some people may not tolerate those well, though. I have made muffins with almond flour and mashed bananas (and a few other ingredients) that turned out very well. I feel like I handle the bananas much better than another source of sugar.

Anyway, thanks for the tip about agave!

[Granny Shanny]

Corn is a beloved evil that I must now do without. :bawling:

D-ang, DnD! You sure know how to hurt an old woman! Very well and poetically stated, my friend!

[Dis-N-Dat]

D-ang, DnD! You sure know how to hurt an old woman! Very well and poetically stated, my friend!

:evil:
(I didn't want to torture anyone with a description of hot out of the oven cornbread or spoonbread, dripping in butter.) :D

[fgummett]

Here is a related YouTube video where HFCS is discussed as well as USA corn subsidies... your Tax dollar$ at work :cool:
YouTube - Conspiracy for Fat America & High-Fructose Corn Syrup (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fi6fK1PvQK4&feature=fvsr)

[Dis-N-Dat]

This is where I feel I must speak up for the small, family farms. We're lucky to live in the Snoqualmie Valley where 3rd and 4th generation family farms ae plentiful.

The planting fields are alternated with cover crops of grain each year to naturally re-feed the soil with nutrients. The results are spectacular and everyone around here buys directly from the farmers.

So please, when and if you can, support small, famly farms.

[tealas]

I make a lot of stuff (or I used to) with cornmeal. Basically cornbread, corn fritters, cornmeal batter, etc. (my dad's side of the family is from the south, and I grew up eating a lot of beans and cornbread!) Since cornmeal is less processed and has more fiber compared to, say, wheat flour, I thought it might be a good choice for me.


I can chime in with the same sort of comments everyone has been making - any form of processed corn raises my blood sugar with lightening speed. Just try eating a few of those corn chips at a mexican restaurant! :eek:

I can get away with 1/2 ear of fresh corn once in a while, especially in a raw salad. But every other form of corn, I aim to avoid.

And HFCS gives my son the runs - he hasn't developed the MODY3 diabetes yet, but he has a very sensitive small intestine, probably due to the HNF-1alpha mutation. So I avoid HFCS like the plaque - but it is everywhere!

[jenb]

Like many other posters I'm in the corn avoidance club due to it's propensity to cause high spikes in my BG. I unfortunately find low carb tortillas fairly unpleasant so I've just cut them out of my diet. Every once in a while, though, I bolus like crazy so I can have a few fully loaded tortilla chips with hot, hot salsa...just can't bring myself to quit it!


Jen

[art]

Corn is one of the things I miss.
And OMG, Corn Muffins!!!

YES, Toasted and dripping with butter.

Art

[Chef Barrae]

This is where I feel I must speak up for the small, family farms. We're lucky to live in the Snoqualmie Valley where 3rd and 4th generation family farms ae plentiful.

The planting fields are alternated with cover crops of grain each year to naturally re-feed the soil with nutrients. The results are spectacular and everyone around here buys directly from the farmers.

So please, when and if you can, support small, famly farms.

The best restaurants and chefs in this country use direct from farm products from local growers and support family farms completely. I agree with you big time DnD. I like to try and buy local produce at a nearby farmers market also and occasionally go to a large green market not too far away.

[slipperyelm]

Themarquis, the corn from which cornmeal, hominy, grits, polenta, masa, animal feed, corn starch, corn syrup, and corn oil are made is different that the corn that you eat off the cob, creamed, or as a "vegetable."

In general "sweet corn" is what is eaten from the cob or spooned onto your plate. "Field corn" is what is usually used for everything else. Even popcorn is a field corn. Even that oh-so-sweet corn syrup starts off as the more starchy field corn. Sweet corn is genetically different than field corn. Field corn pretty quickly converts the sugars into starches even as it is grown on the stalk. If you pick field corn early enough, it can be sweet enough to satisfy most people. Field corn is still edible once it is very starchy, yet most USAmericans would have to adjust their taste expectations in order to eat it. But sweet corn makes more sugar in the first place and then converts less of the sugar to starch. It remains sweet even after you pick it. It remains sweet even after it has totally dried. If you show me dry seed corn, I can tell you whether it is for sweet corn or field corn because of the different (shrivelled and angular) appearance crystals of sugar give the kernel versus the chains of starch stored in field corn kernels.

Dis-n-Dat, I'm posting from the Midwest where agricultural fields are overwhelmingly soy, & corn, with a bit of wheat, barley, and milo occasionally spotted. Cover crops to alternate with corn are almost never planted. Here the typical rotation is corn-soy-corn-soy-corn-soy, everlastingly. I have never even seen a field of sweetcorn here. I have only seen sweet corn in home gardens and truck gardens perhaps too small to be described as a field. I think two acres of sweet corn is the most I've ever seen. But field corn acres can stretch as far as the eyes can see---from a helicopter.

[Shel_B]

I pretty much avoid corn ... spikes me pretty badly. Every now and then some corn kernels in a soup may be OK ....

shel

[themarquis]

Themarquis, the corn from which cornmeal, hominy, grits, polenta, masa, animal feed, corn starch, corn syrup, and corn oil are made is different that the corn that you eat off the cob, creamed, or as a "vegetable."

In general "sweet corn" is what is eaten from the cob or spooned onto your plate. "Field corn" is what is usually used for everything else. Even popcorn is a field corn. Even that oh-so-sweet corn syrup starts off as the more starchy field corn. Sweet corn is genetically different than field corn. Field corn pretty quickly converts the sugars into starches even as it is grown on the stalk. If you pick field corn early enough, it can be sweet enough to satisfy most people. Field corn is still edible once it is very starchy, yet most USAmericans would have to adjust their taste expectations in order to eat it. But sweet corn makes more sugar in the first place and then converts less of the sugar to starch. It remains sweet even after you pick it. It remains sweet even after it has totally dried. If you show me dry seed corn, I can tell you whether it is for sweet corn or field corn because of the different (shrivelled and angular) appearance crystals of sugar give the kernel versus the chains of starch stored in field corn kernels.

Dis-n-Dat, I'm posting from the Midwest where agricultural fields are overwhelmingly soy, & corn, with a bit of wheat, barley, and milo occasionally spotted. Cover crops to alternate with corn are almost never planted. Here the typical rotation is corn-soy-corn-soy-corn-soy, everlastingly. I have never even seen a field of sweetcorn here. I have only seen sweet corn in home gardens and truck gardens perhaps too small to be described as a field. I think two acres of sweet corn is the most I've ever seen. But field corn acres can stretch as far as the eyes can see---from a helicopter.

Thanks, slippery -- that is very interesting.

I knew there was a difference between corn and "sweet corn" but I didn't know it was so significant. I will really have to try the sweet corn and see how I react.

It could be (if I understand you correctly) that the fact that it has a lower starch content may make it more tolerable. It may also be that fresh sweet corn is not as easily broken down and used by the body -- the fiber and indigestible components slow absorption and the water sort of dilutes the digestible sugars/starches (that is, we eat a larger volume of sweet corn to get the same amount of starch vs. dried field corn)

[slipperyelm]

Thanks, slippery -- that is very interesting.

I knew there was a difference between corn and "sweet corn" but I didn't know it was so significant. I will really have to try the sweet corn and see how I react.

It could be (if I understand you correctly) that the fact that it has a lower starch content may make it more tolerable. It may also be that fresh sweet corn is not as easily broken down and used by the body -- the fiber and indigestible components slow absorption and the water sort of dilutes the digestible sugars/starches (that is, we eat a larger volume of sweet corn to get the same amount of starch vs. dried field corn)

No, no, I'm not saying that; sorry for the mix-up. I think they are equal in their ability to raise your BG, especially if you chew well. Sweet corn is sweet(sugary). Field corn is starchy (and does not taste sweet). The sugar in sweet corn is ready to hit your bloodstream right away. The starches in field corn are very quickly broken down into sugars once you start to eat them. Starches are carbohydrates.

If you buy canned corn, frozen corn, or ears of corn in the produce department those are all sweet corn. (Just to be clear.)

[Granny Shanny]

And sweet corn comes in ever sweeter cultivars . . . many hybrids of sugar-enhanced, and many more hybrids of super-sweets. The first time we grew some of the sweeter varieties, it made my corn chowder taste a little too different, so we went back to just regular old sweet corn. :eek:

[SteveFromIowa]

My solution... Corn-fed beef. Doesn't spike me a bit! :D

[slipperyelm]

My solution... Corn-fed beef. Doesn't spike me a bit! :D

Heh-heh. :) When I saw SteveFromIowa showing up on this thread I just had to check in and see what you were going to say about corn!

GrannyShanny, you are from the Missouri Ozarks, aren't you? Did you know a Missourian, Barbara McClintock, got a Nobel prize for her corn genetics discoveries?

[Granny Shanny]

Heh-heh. :) When I saw SteveFromIowa showing up on this thread I just had to check in and see what you were going to say about corn!

GrannyShanny, you are from the Missouri Ozarks, aren't you? Did you know a Missourian, Barbara McClintock, got a Nobel prize for her corn genetics discoveries?

I didn't know that! My mind went straight to the author of children's books, Barbara McClintock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_McClintock_%28illustrator%29)! And I'm only familiar with this one because my MIL is friends with her.

Yep, I'm the Ozarkian - the transplanted Cornhusker . . . so yeah - I was expecting the worst when Steve popped in here! :D :D :D (j/k Steve!)

[MCS]

Alas my corn loving friends, I can still eat the frozen golden kernels.

But most of all, I had just ordered my free sample of whole grain corn flour from National Starch, that contains 30% of thier RS. 30% RS, should cover up most of the other carbs. I will let you all know how my Corn Bread turns out. Me, I like it with whole corn Kernels, and Jalepenos cut up in it. Wait, I had to get a napkin to mop up the drool.

Just go to thier website National Starch.

[slipperyelm]

Lucky, fellow, you are, MCS. :)

Well, I must correct myself. The Nobel prize winner McClintock was from Connecticut originally. In fact the University of Missouri kind of gave her a hard time and I bet she would not have wanted to be described as a Missourian. The Barbara McClintock Papers: Biographical Information (http://profiles.nlm.nih.gov/LL/Views/Exhibit/narrative/biographical.html)

[RobertIA]

Dis-n-Dat, I'm posting from the Midwest where agricultural fields are overwhelmingly soy, & corn, with a bit of wheat, barley, and milo occasionally spotted. Cover crops to alternate with corn are almost never planted. Here the typical rotation is corn-soy-corn-soy-corn-soy, everlastingly. I have never even seen a field of sweetcorn here. I have only seen sweet corn in home gardens and truck gardens perhaps too small to be described as a field. I think two acres of sweet corn is the most I've ever seen. But field corn acres can stretch as far as the eyes can see---from a helicopter.
I know there are areas of the Midwest that are like you describe, but here in North Central Iowa, I can see fields of sweet corn, carrots, crops for sorghum, and other foods processed by some of the canneries in Southern Minnesota.

We also have fields for hay that is trucked all over the US and used locally for our dairy farms. I love the sight of our fields and most are of the fields described by slipperyelm.

Bob

[MCS]

Lived in PA, fields and fields of sweet corn, grown by the Amish, $1/doz ears.

Went to school in Wisconson, drove thru a sea of corn to get there. You have never seen a corn field until you been to the midwest, Indiana, Ohio, etc. corn 10 ft tall. Uncle was from Illinois, had Corn right up to his back yard, 10-12 foot monsters of nothing but corn.

[PrettynPurple]

Corn is a beloved evil that I must now do without. :bawling:

:evil:
(I didn't want to torture anyone with a description of hot out of the oven cornbread or spoonbread, dripping in butter.) :D

<~~~i can eat corn (mind you 1 ear of corn) with no prob
and i can eat hard corn tort shells with no prob, but soft ones spike me

[Granny Shanny]

I took a job de-tasseling corn (http://www.mindfully.org/Farm/Detasseling-Faces-Extinction9aug02.htm) one summer when I was young & dumb. What I hadn't realized is that in order to accomplish the task, one needs to be tall enough with arms extended, to actually REACH the tassel. http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b202/sneezytwo/smileyundone.gif