High Protein Diet Shrinks Brain

[Evermont]

Just another bit of news...

Alzheimer's Researchers Find High Protein Diet Shrinks Brain

ScienceDaily (Oct. 21, 2009) — One of the many reasons to pick a low-calorie, low-fat diet rich in vegetables, fruits, and fish is that a host of epidemiological studies have suggested that such a diet may delay the onset or slow the progression of Alzheimer's disease (AD). Now a study published in BioMed Central's open access journal Molecular Neurodegeneration tests the effects of several diets, head-to-head, for their effects on AD pathology in a mouse model of the disease. Although the researchers were focused on triggers for brain plaque formation, they also found that, unexpectedly, a high protein diet apparently led to a smaller brain.

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(link (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/10/091020192206.htm))

[Evermont]

Interesting. 50 views so far on this thread and zero responses. Is it just me or does the typical ratio of views to replies about 10 to 1 on DF?

No wonder nobody likes this idea. Low fat has been all the rage for so many years. Most of us are fully brainwashed. Low carb is the consensus on DF for better BG control. And nobody wants their brain to shrink from "too much protein"...

That leaves n-o-t-h-i-n-g to eat!?!?!? Well, except for vitamin pills. I mean, I hear that CR is good but nobody thinks malnutrition is the answer.

Hmmm. Balance anyone?

[fgummett]

Well since you asked so nicely... it is a mouse study... what exactly were they feeding them..? does it apply equally to humans? and since when did weight of the brain signify intelligence..? maybe phrenology has made a comeback :cool: IIRC Einstein's brain was considered small for his body size..?
Unexpectedly, mice fed a high protein/low carbohydrate diet had brains five percent lighter that all the others, and regions of their hippocampus were less developed. This result was a surprise, and, until researchers test this effect on non-transgenic mice, it is unclear whether the loss of brain mass is associated with AD-type plaque. But some studies in the published literature led the authors to put forward a tentative theory that a high protein diet may leave neurones more vulnerable to AD plaque....doesn't sound quite as conclusively damaging as the banner headline suggests

[Moonglo]

Forgive me for saying so, but these days I'm starting to feel like anything I eat will kill me eventually anyways (and yes, I need to get out of this mindset, b/c it's making it extremely hard to make myself cut carbs). Ugh. I give up.

So, maybe lower carb but moderate protein then? Assuming this study is correct?

[xMenace]

I don't see a high fat option which is what many of us more-or-less promote.

Low-carb also counters water retention. Less water = less mass. Water doesn't care what the cell's purpose is.

[cyberus]

Might, could, apparently, maybe, may, have suggested, tentative theory ....

... the entire "paper" is amass with so many qualifiers that the only people that can draw ANY conclusion are those looking for something to support their current mindset or newsies looking for a headline

[jillrapp]

I'll pipe in my two cents worth as well..... And... they never say exactly was a high protein diet was... what percentage of the diet, etc.

Just like 99.9% of the other articles out there on Diabetes, I would take it with a grain of salt.

[sanflan]

You must not be too far along in type 2 diabetes. Just wait until a single piece of bread raises your bg's by so much that you have to take a ridiculous amount of insulin to cover it and you have to go to bed for the rest of the day. It would be great to eat this wonderful diet you are suggesting, but think of it like an allergy to peanuts, peanuts are a great food but if every time you ate them they made you ill..... well you would eventually avoid them. I would love to eat carbs, but I can't.

[ShottleBop]

Hmmm. Balance anyone?

Hmmm. Eat to your meter, anyone?

[fgummett]

OK... in all fairness if you follow the trail of links to Abstract | Dietary composition modulates brain mass and amyloid beta levels in a mouse model of aggressive Alzheimer's amyloid pathology (http://www.molecularneurodegeneration.com/content/4/1/40) they do detail the macro-nutrient proportions of each diet.. including an high fat option... Methods
From 4 wks until 18 wks of age, male and female TgCRND8 mice were maintained on one of four diets: (1) reference (regular) commercial chow; (2) high fat/low carbohydrate custom chow (60 kcal% fat/ 30 kcal% protein/ 10 kcal% carbohydrate); (3) high protein/low carbohydrate custom chow (60 kcal% protein/ 30 kcal% fat/ 10 kcal% carbohydrate); or (4) high carbohydrate/low fat custom chow (60 kcal% carbohydrate/ 30 kcal% protein/ 10 kcal% fat). At age 18 wks, mice were sacrificed, and brains studied for (a) wet weight; (b) amyloid beta content by ELISA; (c) amyloid plaque burden; (d) stereologic analysis of selected hippocampal subregions.I also agree with Evermont and ShottelBop that what we need [as humans] is balance and [as diabetics] eating to our meters, but I'd suggest that the best way to achieve both is by eating a natural balance of fat, protein and carbohydrates in real whole food... not by eating processed & packaged food which has had its macro-nutrient balance artificially altered... which, let's face it, is ALL these unfortunate mice ate in their short, genetically manipulated lives... food pellets!

An interesting study that to my thinking raises more questions than it answers (good science in other words) but hardly conclusive enough to imply that by eating high protein I would shrink my brain :cool:

[Evermont]

Thank you all for responses.

Well since you asked so nicely... it is a mouse study... what exactly were they feeding them..? does it apply equally to humans? and since when did weight of the brain signify intelligence..? maybe phrenology has made a comeback :cool: IIRC Einstein's brain was considered small for his body size..?
...doesn't sound quite as conclusively damaging as the banner headline suggests

You raise fair points Frank, I don't intend to argue with these. If we need conclusive evidence that high protein is bad - wouldn't we also need conclusive evidence that a balanced diet is bad to reject that? Can you refer me to conclusive (or any) evidence that a balance of macronutrients is bad?

Forgive me for saying so, but these days I'm starting to feel like anything I eat will kill me eventually anyways (and yes, I need to get out of this mindset, b/c it's making it extremely hard to make myself cut carbs). Ugh. I give up.

So, maybe lower carb but moderate protein then? Assuming this study is correct?

Don't give up! Your frustration is understandable, especially here where it is shared by many. You are hinting at what I think is one of the most important questions before us. What is the right balance?

I don't see a high fat option which is what many of us more-or-less promote.

Low-carb also counters water retention. Less water = less mass. Water doesn't care what the cell's purpose is.

Interesting John. So you suggest that the smaller brains may just have less water? I wonder about the implications of that. I mean the body in general and the brain especially seem adept (usually) at maintaining good levels of so many crucial things. Muscles vary the amount of water they retain under various conditions for mechanical reasons. But proper brain function would seem to require a more delicate balance than muscles - but I'm speculating. I would think researchers in this field would not so easily overlook such a simple explanation as this - but maybe you're onto something.

Might, could, apparently, maybe, may, have suggested, tentative theory ....

... the entire "paper" is amass with so many qualifiers that the only people that can draw ANY conclusion are those looking for something to support their current mindset or newsies looking for a headline

You're right. Too early for conclusions just as they said. Is is too early also to discuss it?

I'll pipe in my two cents worth as well..... And... they never say exactly was a high protein diet was... what percentage of the diet, etc.

Just like 99.9% of the other articles out there on Diabetes, I would take it with a grain of salt.

And a grain of salt might help with that water retention thing :D

You must not be too far along in type 2 diabetes. Just wait until a single piece of bread raises your bg's by so much that you have to take a ridiculous amount of insulin to cover it and you have to go to bed for the rest of the day. It would be great to eat this wonderful diet you are suggesting, but think of it like an allergy to peanuts, peanuts are a great food but if every time you ate them they made you ill..... well you would eventually avoid them. I would love to eat carbs, but I can't.

You're right - I'm not very far along (yet). I usually avoid bread. Yesterday was a bit of a special occasion, DW was finally officially Dx with a brain tumor and Cushings disease, so post surgery her newly Dx'ed diabetes should actually go away. She's been craving Vermont Sandwich Company so I promised her lunch there after our appointment with her endo. Well, there wasn't much avoiding bread for lunch yesterday. Of course I found this a great opportunity to test and so 1 hr pp I was 164 and 1 1/4 hr pp I was 158. I expected higher numbers. She decided grilled cheese was in order for dinner. I cooked for the family and nobody noticed that I didn't eat any myself. The point being that I eat carbs all the time - but rarely bread or other things like it. I advocate good carbs, not all carbs. I advocate a balance - not mostly carbs.

Hmmm. Eat to your meter, anyone?

Yes Yes. The meter is an important tool. It tells us when we're getting too much of a certain bad thing. It won't however tell us when we're getting too much of a different bad thing - or not enough of a zillion good things. It's not the whole story.

In a way, our meters are like the "check engine" idiot light in the car. It alerts us to a certain problem with many potentially bad effects. However, it won't alert us to a flat tire, or a loose tie rod, or a misaligned head light, or countless other important things.

Diabetics are people too. We're not just BG victims. We might not want to throw the baby out with the bath water - or throw the broccoli out with the bread as it were.

OK... in all fairness if you follow the trail of links to Abstract | Dietary composition modulates brain mass and amyloid beta levels in a mouse model of aggressive Alzheimer's amyloid pathology (http://www.molecularneurodegeneration.com/content/4/1/40) they do detail the macro-nutrient proportions of each diet.. including an high fat option... I also agree with Evermont and ShottelBop that what we need [as humans] is balance and [as diabetics] eating to our meters, but I'd suggest that the best way to achieve both is by eating a natural balance of fat, protein and carbohydrates in real whole food... not by eating processed & packaged food which has had its macro-nutrient balance artificially altered... which, let's face it, is ALL these unfortunate mice ate in their short, genetically manipulated lives... food pellets!

An interesting study that to my thinking raises more questions than it answers (good science in other words) but hardly conclusive enough to imply that by eating high protein I would shrink my brain :cool:

Good post Frank - and not just because I generally agree. The packaged and processed rat foods make controlling the study more straightforward I suppose. It is possible that these choices are in themselves leading to some of the observed effects. This is a real dilemma in dietary science.

[foxl]

Good post Frank - and not just because I generally agree. The packaged and processed rat foods make controlling the study more straightforward I suppose. It is possible that these choices are in themselves leading to some of the observed effects. This is a real dilemma in dietary science.

Yes the packaged and processed is what nutrition studies are ALL about -- and can be highly detrimental.

Many years ago, I worked on an animal study, using a powdered, unpreserved diet ... a bacteriologist and food safety person in our hospital dietary dept. determined that the powder was highly contaminated with coliforms. Well of course something with a high proportion of powdered milk in it would pose that sort of storage problem. (and this for adult animals, not typically adapted to animal protein, etc.) We stored it cold, but perhaps with humidity etc. it was not adequate. It has left me suspicious of efforts to control experimental diets, ever since. It just seemed like a huge waste to me.

[ShottleBop]

Yes Yes. The meter is an important tool. It tells us when we're getting too much of a certain bad thing. It won't however tell us when we're getting too much of a different bad thing - or not enough of a zillion good things. It's not the whole story.

In a way, our meters are like the "check engine" idiot light in the car. It alerts us to a certain problem with many potentially bad effects. However, it won't alert us to a flat tire, or a loose tie rod, or a misaligned head light, or countless other important things.

Diabetics are people too. We're not just BG victims. We might not want to throw the baby out with the bath water - or throw the broccoli out with the bread as it were.

I don't know anyone here who can truly be said to advocate "throwing out the broccoli", Evermont--if you check out the thread on low-carb daily diets, you'll see that a lot of us low-carbers are eating salads--and green veggies--pretty often. Yesterday, for example, I ate:

for breakfast: a whey protein shake mixed with unsweetened vanilla almond milk, a handful of walnuts, a hard-boiled egg, and a spoonful of MCT oil (if we hadn't been out of avocados, I would have had the avocado instead of the walnuts and egg);

for lunch: a grilled chicken salad at a favorite Italian restaurant, with a good mix of romaine, olives, a few slices of apples, and the like.

for dinner: thinly sliced, grilled filet over mixed greens, oven-roasted brussels sprouts, and some homemade mint-cacao-nib ice cream.

I snacked on almonds and macadamia, and had a package of pork rinds late in the afternoon.

Yes, I moderate fruit, favoring berries and avocados--and usually leave the fruit for my evening meal, but I'm not averse to a small fig/clementine/other on the odd occasion.

[foxl]

Truly -- I try to make "half my plate green," at both lunch and dinner, now!

[volleyball]

Looking at the study, you could easily argue the point that the control group was a bunch of FAT HEADS. we know too many carbs pack the fat on the body so why not the brain? intelligence is not measured by the mass of the brain. So mayby a smaller brain would cause less headaches and less tumors and less oldtimers disease

[foxl]

Looking at the study, you could easily argue the point that the control group was a bunch of FAT HEADS. we know too many carbs pack the fat on the body so why not the brain? intelligence is not measured by the mass of the brain. So mayby a smaller brain would cause less headaches and less tumors and less oldtimers disease

LOL -- the brain is mostly lipid!

but there also are studies, Volleyball, of Alzheimer's and loss of brain volume -- a well-established connection in fact.

[yannah]

my numbers are good and I feel the best when I am high veggies, moderate protein. too much dairy i am sure.

and I can only worry about so much, so I don't worry about my brain shrinking.

I just worry about smoking control, whih I am back painfully at, and blood sugar control. whenever I start reading a bunch of studies I get anxious and have to have a seroquel, and you should see the nightmares associated witht that.

so, my brain might shrink. as Linda said once, perhaps I may find myself on the low carb alzheimers unit of the hospital. and I may be thinking "****" as they bring me plates of potaotes covered in pasta.

but until then....its just gum, chewing on straws, pea pods for breakfast, meters and met.

[cyberus]

You're right. Too early for conclusions just as they said. Is is too early also to discuss it?



Never said anything about not discussing it, *did* say the mouthful of qualifiers that makes drawing a conclusion the purview of someone looking to support their already made up mind or someone looking for a headline

[Granny Shanny]

DW was finally officially Dx with a brain tumor and Cushings disease, so post surgery her newly Dx'ed diabetes should actually go away.

(hugs to GrnMtGirl)

[foxl]

Ah -- a pituitary microadenoma?

Good luck and best wishes, Green Mtn Girl!

[Hammer]

Interesting. 50 views so far on this thread and zero responses. Is it just me or does the typical ratio of views to replies about 10 to 1 on DF?



Just curious, but how did you know there were 50 views?

[princesslinda]

Just curious, but how did you know there were 50 views?

When you are under a particular forum viewing different threads before you chose a specific one to post under, it shows how many views each one has.

[Hammer]

When you are under a particular forum viewing different threads before you chose a specific one to post under, it shows how many views each one has.

I see it now. Thanks Linda!

[It Ain't Over]

Forgive me for saying so, but these days I'm starting to feel like anything I eat will kill me eventually anyways (and yes, I need to get out of this mindset, b/c it's making it extremely hard to make myself cut carbs). Ugh. I give up.

I say this is the ultimate truth. I know there is no arguement that we all face the end sooner or later no matter what we eat or don't eat.

[yannah]

I say this is the ultimate truth. I know there is no arguement that we all face the end sooner or later no matter what we eat or don't eat.

once again, I just want to note, it really is a mindset. and eating low carb is the most fun I have ever had, I would do it if I were cured.

[xMenace]

So you suggest that the smaller brains may just have less water? I wonder about the implications of that. I mean the body in general and the brain especially seem adept (usually) at maintaining good levels of so many crucial things. Muscles vary the amount of water they retain under various conditions for mechanical reasons. But proper brain function would seem to require a more delicate balance than muscles - but I'm speculating. I would think researchers in this field would not so easily overlook such a simple explanation as this - but maybe you're onto something.


There's nothing simple about the human body. It's very easy to miss cause and effect and to over or under guage consequences. Yet it does seem that simple concepts are at work in most of these things - Occam's Razor again at work.

One of the well known effects of insulin is salt retention. What Causes Water & Salt Retention & Loss? | Current Health Articles 2009 (http://www.healthhype.com/what-causes-water-salt-retention-loss.html) One of the well known effects of carbohydrate reduction is insulin reduction. It doesn't take a scientist to suspect a link.

[Mich]

To Keith and his Green Mountain Girl: My heart is with you both. Much support and love your way. Mich

Re brain shrinking on high protein diet, all I have to say is "Huh?"

I agree with Yannah: "and I can only worry about so much, so I don't worry about my brain shrinking."

And to John:
Have you ever seen a fat squirrel?

No, but lots of flat ones. We call them sail squirrels out here. :cool:

[Grunch]

There's nothing simple about the human body. It's very easy to miss cause and effect and to over or under guage consequences. Yet it does seem that simple concepts are at work in most of these things - Occam's Razor again at work.

One of the well known effects of insulin is salt retention. What Causes Water & Salt Retention & Loss? | Current Health Articles 2009 (http://www.healthhype.com/what-causes-water-salt-retention-loss.html) One of the well known effects of carbohydrate reduction is insulin reduction. It doesn't take a scientist to suspect a link.

If that were the case then the high fat diet should cause more brain shrinkage than the high protein one.

[fgummett]

Just a thought -- and I think Volleyball made the same point -- but the study says... mice fed a high protein/low carbohydrate diet had brains five percent lighter that all the others...logically that is the same as stating "the other diets resulted in a HEAVIER brain". I don't see any reference to a "standardized normal mouse brain weight"... we seem to just have a comparison amongst the study animals.

People see what they want to see, especially if they have an agenda.

These were genetically manipulated tiny, short-lived rodents, fed on processed nutritional supplements... how does that compare to what a wild mouse would choose to eat in its wild state? I understand the difficulty of trying to control a laboratory experiment but let's be clear before drawing conclusions as to how this might apply to ourselves.

[yannah]

Just a thought -- and I think Volleyball made the same point -- but the study says... ...logically that does not preclude the suggestion that rather than the high protien diet causing a lighter brain, it could be that the other diets resulted in a HEAVIER brain.

mmmm...I do think my brain is pretty heavy.