View Full Version : But I WANT Carbs!
musique913
11-01-2009, 08:18 PM
This low-carb diet is hard!
I've been doing 30 grams of carbs for each meal for a couple of weeks now at the suggestion of my doctor and diabetic nutritionists, and ****ed if I don't want every carb under the sun.
I have really good control since I started it, except the one day I went off because of my graduation, but it's still really difficult.
I find myself craving things I never really ate before to begin with! Now that I can't have certain things because they are too high carb, these are the things I want to eat! Of course when I can't have them it's making me grumpy as anything. I swear that carbs make us in a better mood!
I've been meditating and doing exercise to curb my issues..but I just needed to vent. I think sometimes it just helps to know that there are other people out there having the same problems..and don't judge you for it.
Thanks for the time.
Angela
Vent away.
It's relatively common to have those strong cravings. Can't say it happens for all, but for me, those feelings passed after a few weeks. It is tough, but for me, it became much easier with time.
Chef Barrae
11-01-2009, 08:44 PM
Yes, I absolutely agree. Those carb cravings will go away. It's just your body trying to convince you not to eat healthy! haha! Stick with it! The meditation and exercise is great! Choose your carbs carefully and make every one of them count!
kingleonidas
11-01-2009, 08:50 PM
Oh man, i have looked at oreo cakesters like they were the last food on earth, yet before diagnosis, I never even noticed they existed !
Josselyn
11-01-2009, 08:58 PM
Vent all you wish, Angela. I get it.
South Beach and Atkins are two food plans that advocate a 2-3 week induction period before starting a low carb lifestyle. It's a rather limited, somewhat miserable two weeks, but it works. The induction period is very low carb, 20-30 grams per day (although I add some veggies to it) and exists to turn bodies from carb burning machines into fat burning machines. It also essentially kills carb cravings. One generally will eventually gradually add carbs to a maximum of 60 per day...which is maintenance, I believe.
Starchy/grainy/sugary carbs beget cravings for more...ummm, can you guess what?
Which types of high carb foods are you craving? Many things can be modified to be acceptable, D-wise, in reasonable portions.
I know it's hard. It does get easier. And when things are more stable, you can even have a treat once in a while...but you might not want to then.
FYI: You're right. Carbs help our brains release seratonin, I'm told. That's the "feel good" chemical. Comfort food.
Try some 70% cocoa dark chocolate for a treat.
It does the same thing. :D
Subby
11-01-2009, 09:05 PM
Angela, I note you say 30g at each meal. That to me sounds like ample opportunity to have a decent chunk of all the arbs taht cause cravings. I generally restrict to about 30g a meal in my own diet, and part of parcel of that was eliminating a whole lot of carbs that a) spike me anyway and b) set off massive carb cravings and would turn my life into a living 'ell.
I wonder if this is not a step you need to take as part and parcel of reducing your carbs for the tenable future - removing those that cause strong cravings. I think one important tactic is to observe what you crave, eliminate it, and see if you breath easier.
musique913
11-01-2009, 09:23 PM
I never really craved popcorn, but I want it so bad right now..full butter the whole deal.
Bread, in large chunks, even though I never ate that way before! lol!
Crackers. My boyfriend has saltines in the cupboard and I could eat half a stack, even though I've never wanted them before.
Rice.:( I loved rice, but since I've watched my carbs I figured out that rice was bad for me personally because it spikes me even with brown rice, or jasmine rice.
I've been loading up on salad, lettuce, cucumbers, some tomatoes, etc..but this stuff is hard.
I don't know, maybe I'm just feeling frustrated today, even with the good blood sugars I've had all day.
EeyoreButterfly
11-01-2009, 11:09 PM
I think it's human nature to want something as soon as we are told we can't have it. So the minute you are told carbs are off limits, of course that is what you will crave!
Eating low carb has been a real struggle for me as well. I just have not been counting carbs like I should and that is one reason I am having a hard time with control. Intellectually I feel like I really know what needs to be done, but I've always had a hard time doing it. I'm trying to be better though. I just started using this thing available from my gym that tells me my calorie output (via a sensor) and then I log my food online. One thing it does is give me a breakdown of all the macronutrients and what percentage of calories are coming from protein, fat, and carbs. It has forced me to be honest with myself, and thatis helping.
bunbury
11-02-2009, 12:18 AM
hang in there and be strong. It can take weeks to get used to it, but it's worth it and it will happen! Eventually you will start to look at some of the foods you crave and wonder why you ever thought they were food! :)
Just look at what your meter is telling you!
I suggest that to rid yourself of cravings you eat fewer carbs. I'm eating in the 30-50 carbs per day range these days, only carbs from green vegetables, nuts, and dairy products, and I virtually never have cravings. I'm not saying that bread doesn't look and sound good, but I don't actively crave it so long as I keep the carbs way down. I actually think it's easier to eat fewer carbs and escape the cravings than to try to have just a bit of things that provoke the desire for more.
xMenace
11-02-2009, 01:55 AM
I've been loading up on salad, lettuce, cucumbers, some tomatoes, etc..but this stuff is hard.
How about fats and proteins? Are you starving yourself? You still need calories. Semi-starvation diets will make you hungry. Think quality of food, not quantity.
Man can I identify!!! been low carbing a while, and was quite happy (most of the time) but recently have relaxed a bit - and now it's almost impossible to say no to whatever carby/comfort food passes in front of me.... And the A1c shows it, gone up from 6.1 to 6.3 :(
Subby
11-02-2009, 02:37 AM
Rice.:( I loved rice, but since I've watched my carbs I figured out that rice was bad for me personally because it spikes me even with brown rice, or jasmine rice.
Here is an example where the GI index may help you find lower spiking alternatives of different foods. According to GI test results, many brown and jasmine rice are very much likely to spike you badly. Basmati rice is an example of a rice that tends to spike people significantly less (or more slowly). There is not a lot of "common sense" to the GI index: just empirical testing, on a limited range of non diabetic subjects, to get an average rate of spike. It may or may not give you accurate suggestions, but I find it has given me some valuable hints for good carb alternatives, even if it is nothing like foolproof.
So now, instead of never eat rice (jasmine spikes me very quickly) every now and then I might have a bit of basmati, which just about matches my bolus insulin.
Basmati might still spike you badly personally: the rice is just an example of any type of food, you can look up ratings and get a feel for what might be better choices to try or choices to definitely avoid.
I like the info and write up that David Mendosa gives about the GI index. The Glycemic Index (http://mendosa.com/gi.htm) If this link is removed, web search for his site and use the menu on the left hand side to "Diabetes Articles" > "Food" > "Glycemic index". You will find comprehensive lists of GI and GL on the site, too.
dbaratta
11-02-2009, 05:04 AM
Rice.:( I loved rice, but since I've watched my carbs I figured out that rice was bad for me personally because it spikes me even with brown rice, or jasmine rice.
.
Try brown rice, doesn't work for me but some people can eat brown rice.
Could you increase the met dosage? It seems to help ME.
These suggestions may just annoy you, or they may work ... I have made buttered, salted pan-roasted sunflower seeds, and I SWEAR they remind me of popcorn!
I make all my old pasta sauces and put them over fake chicken breasts, eggs, tempeh, or tofu, and they taste terrific there -- I really do not miss the pasta at all!
And I have been trying to eat EVEN LOWER carb, but vegetarian, since my BG has been messed up bu an infection.
NewdestinyX
11-02-2009, 07:45 AM
I feel your pain, Angela. Really I do. I could not do it in the end. I tried 3 weeks and it was pure he!!. And I had no energy to exercise either which carbs are more efficient in burning from all my reading. I will say that 'some cravings went away' and my needs did and are changing. But I've chosen a moderate carb lifestyle which softens the 'bad days'. My eating is now WAY different that before diagnosis -- but maybe you need to let up a little and get those carbs up for a period until your mind and body can catch up to each other. That low level of carbs does not work for everyone. It is SUPER EFFECTIVE in keeping blood sugar down -- but that's not the ONLY issue in a diabetic's life. And there are other ways to help you keep it down if you find you can't eat that lo carb a diet. There is a 'lesser vocal minority' of us out here that can't do the super lo carb lifestyle and when we speak up we're often marginalized here. So I'll just say -- do your best -- because lo carb, IF you can do it, is a proven thing in controlling BG levels. I stay around 90-100g per day now and use basal insulin and metformin to help manage my BG level overall. I needed to stay about 100-150g of carbs for the first few months for 'my mind's sake'. You do meditation so that's great. I also exercise a lot and that helps.
As others have said you HAVE to eat SOMETHING -- so don't deny yourself the good fats like nuts and cheese and olives, etc.. They can be very filling and satisfying. Not like a BROWNIE satisfying of course... LOL!!!
Whatever you choose -- good luck. On bad days it's ok to let yourself have a break. Try not to go crazy. I'm not of the belief either that if you 'go back' and eat some comfort foods occasionally that you'll STAY 'off the wagon'. For me I can go off the wagon and then right back on whenever I want. And have. I'm not suggesting this is 'healthy' for our diabetes control -- but I am suggesting that it is often 'needed' for our 'souls'. Don't beat yourself up. Listen to your 'heart' AS you're watching your meter. That's a balanced approach that's working for me -- but remember -- I'm adding a 'med' (insulin) to 'allow' me to live that way. If you wish fewer/no meds and no needles then you may have to live only to your meter and tell your 'heart' to 'suck it up'.. :)
NewdestinyX
11-02-2009, 07:50 AM
I have made buttered, salted pan-roasted sunflower seeds, and I SWEAR they remind me of popcorn![YUM!!!!
I make all my old pasta sauces and put them over fake chicken breasts, eggs, tempeh, or tofu, and they taste terrific there -- I really do not miss the pasta at all!What's a 'fake' chicken breast.. :confused:
YUM!!!!
What's a 'fake' chicken breast.. :confused:
Quorn | The Quorn Range (http://www.quorn.us//cmpage.aspx?section=OurRange)
These are pretty good -- neutral unobtrusive flavor and the right texture. But if you are not vegetarian I am sure regular chicken is probably far more acceptable. My husband is not vegetarian, and likes these, however!
Josselyn
11-02-2009, 07:58 AM
YUM!!!!
What's a 'fake' chicken breast.. :confused:
Linda is vegetarian, Grant. Likely the meatless chicken breast is made largely of soy and looks like the real thing. They're not bad, actually.
I like the "fake" corn dogs, myself. :o
musique913
11-02-2009, 08:01 AM
That sunflower seed idea sounds really good. I had roasted pumpkin seeds the other day and it was so delicious.
Thank you for all the suggestions.
Half of this is getting my mind around the low-carb lifestyle to keep my bloods in control. The other part is that I've not always been a healthy eater, and this is a huge change.
I admit I was awful eating, and probably ate all the bad carbs there were thinking it wouldn't hurt me. Right now I'm a bit scared with my kidneys showing issues, even though I lost weight like the doctor told me, I really want to lose more and be even healthier. It's a lot of pressure.
I don't know, I guess every significant change in life is hard. It's not as if I'm feeling sorry for myself, but it sometimes doesn't seem fair that we have to change the way we eat so much, just to get a control that can go away the second you slip up.
In the end, I think it's just understanding that what is being done right now is good for my body, and those people that eat high carb/high fat, etc are just hurting their bodies.
I'm keeping mine so I can live until I'm 100.:T
Linda is vegetarian, Grant. Likely the meatless chicken breast is made largely of soy and looks like the real thing. They're not bad, actually.
I like the "fake" corn dogs, myself. :o
Not soy -- mycoprotein and egg white, actually. If you are interested I provided a link.
I have not always been a healthy eater either -- mostly out of being too busy and not willing to PLAN every bite that goes into my mouth.
It is more a matter of replacing old habits, for me. I really resented the lack of mindless, spontaneous eating ... till I lost weight and began feeling better!
fgummett
11-02-2009, 08:10 AM
It is not simply the quantity of carbs but their quality may be even more important... cola has carbs but so does broccoli... guess which one our bodies are best adapted to eat while still maintaining good BG control.
As above, there is no need starve yourself when avoiding refined/concentrated carbohydrates... to me this was the whole key to finally gaining back control of my eating... you don't need to feel deprived on a variety of rich and tasty real whole food.
Of course I can relate to the memory of eating a Danish pastry or the like and probably getting a brain buzz off it, but because I am not hungry all the time I don't find it a constant struggle to avoid temptation... if I need anything I can just reach for a few nuts or some dark chocolate instead.
musique913
11-02-2009, 08:11 AM
Oh, and I have been doing the yummy fats like almonds, olives..had some pistachios yesterday because I was so hungry between lunch and dinner..
I'm just not used to feeling so darned hungry along with the craving. The other wierd thing is feeling my toes so painfully these days. Being more in control I seem to feel my feet and boy that tingly painful feeling now seems to stretch from my knees to my toes. Ouch! Thank God the bike makes it feel better in the legs..but my toes, especially the big one, hurt!
I really sound like I'm whining today..sorry!
fgummett
11-02-2009, 08:16 AM
I'm just not used to feeling so darned hungry along with the craving.So what are you eating? In my experience you don't have to go hungry when eating low-carb... in fact that was the biggest change for me compared to previously-tried calorie-restricted diets... within days of cutting out virtually all carbs I was no longer hungry all the time. Maybe you also need to consider the "induction" phase approach.
I think it is common that some symptoms worsen and then subside as you gain better long-term BG control... I used to "skin my knees" often as a boy, and my Mum would tell me that when the scab itched it meant it was healing... the nerves were knitting back together.
Josselyn
11-02-2009, 08:20 AM
Not soy -- mycoprotein and egg white, actually. If you are interested I provided a link.
Thanks, Linda!
Hmmm, I'll go to the link now. Want to investigate this mycoprotein...
Is that also the main ingredient in meatless pepperoni (yum)? I really should read the ingredient labels more closely on that stuff. I always presumed they were made of some soy incarnation...
Thanks, Linda!
Hmmm, I'll go to the link now. Want to investigate this mycoprotein...
Is that also the main ingredient in meatless pepperoni (yum)? I really should read the ingredient labels more closely on that stuff. I always presumed they were made of some soy incarnation...
Not all of the meat substitutes are soy, and this Quorn company actually capitalizes on the anti-soy thing. But fake pepperoni ... probably wheat gluten! Could be soy -- Chinese have been making tofu jerky for years (it is yummy!!!! But sugary, too -- sigh).
Newdiabetic
11-02-2009, 08:35 AM
I heard a judge on TV tell an addict, on his show, that she needed to be in treatment for 90 days to kick the habit. I have always likened myself to an addict when it came to sugary sweets and bad carbs, in that I would rather have those than healthy foods, anytime!
I knew giving up bad carbs was going to be difficult, but I thought 90 days is only three months, I can do this. Then I came on here and read the advice that it is a few weeks which sounded real good! I have been diagnosed for a little over 4 weeks now, and it is so much easier to say no to bread, potatoes and desserts now.
Maybe it will become even easier.
I have designated times of the year that I am going to splurge with a reasonable sized piece of cake. (Then I will walk a mile)
My Anniversary (Red Velvet with cream cheese icing)
Thanksgiving I will make some kind of pumpkin something and work on making it as low carb as possible.
Christmas
My birthday
Easter
4th. of July
I will walk after each meal that I eat that cake and make sure I eat vinegary things during my meal preceding the cake. And I will walk.
Like you my numbers are pretty smooth in ranges...if you experience carb cravings, walk some, it really helps. It is frustrating...but the pounds will melt(if you need to lose weight...and that is a BIG ego booster).
It also sounds like you are in a rut....as far as cooking. Get your self a good low glycemic cookbook to read and use. Experiment. Preparation of meals helps to get your mind off the negative stuff and helps you to focus on the positive nutrients of a meal. There are some really good low glycemic meals out there.
Good luck....I tend to ramble in my posts...sorry.:o
Joyce
plattb1
11-02-2009, 08:37 AM
So, Linda, I looked at your Quorn link & it looks like the main ingredient is some type of mushroom. Am I reading that right? And, is there any domestic production of this product in the US?
So, Linda, I looked at your Quorn link & it looks like the main ingredient is some type of mushroom. Am I reading that right? And, is there any domestic production of this product in the US?
Yes, it is a fungus related to mushrooms ... some people find it objectionable because it is "laboratory grown." I am afraid I am more practical than that ... cruelty to fungus is not so disturbing to me! ;) Put more plainly, gotta eat somethin!
musique913
11-02-2009, 08:57 AM
Yes, it is a fungus related to mushrooms ... some people find it objectionable because it is "laboratory grown." I am afraid I am more practical than that ... cruelty to fungus is not so disturbing to me! ;) Put more plainly, gotta eat somethin!
Haha..
Speaking of mushrooms..have you ever had one of those mushroom burger things they do(made of mushrooms completely). They are pretty tasty believe it or not.
I put mushrooms on a lot of stuff..lol.
Haha..
Speaking of mushrooms..have you ever had one of those mushroom burger things they do(made of mushrooms completely). They are pretty tasty believe it or not.
I put mushrooms on a lot of stuff..lol.
Oh, yes, the giant portabella stuffed with cheese, trimmings, and a (flaxmeal for me!) bun -- YUMMY! Mushrooms are GREAT in many ways!
flowerbabe68
11-02-2009, 10:46 AM
I feel your pain,as does everyone who has just started this diabetic journey. For me, it was a matter of mind over matter. I think I craved things that I never ate much before just because I knew I could no longer eat them. With the help of this forum and the recipes, I get more creative with my foods every day. I try not to say," I can't eat that." I just tell myself, " I don't eat that." When you can see the results of working so hard(blood sugar better readings,wt coming down), it makes sense. Notice, I did not say it was easy. I have seen the end results of blood sugars not controlled and don't want to be there. It is tough love,but you will do it. I was amazed that dark chocolate was allowable. I never liked the dark chocolate,but when you crave something sweet, it sure fills the bill and believe me, I learned to LOVE it. Hang in there and share your thoughts with all of us. We learn from each other.Stay in touch.:flowers:
jillybean
11-02-2009, 01:00 PM
For me, it is SO much easier to avoid carbs if I cut them WAY back. Eating 30g carbs per meal would only give me more and more cravings. Eating 10 or fewer carbs per meal (only from things like veggies, not potatoes, bread, pasta, rice, etc.) makes my cravings vanish after just a couple weeks. The first couple weeks are rough sometimes, but after you get used to not having the carbs, they actually make you feel CRAPPY when you do have them!
jer.lawrence
11-02-2009, 03:36 PM
For me, it is SO much easier to avoid carbs if I cut them WAY back. Eating 30g carbs per meal would only give me more and more cravings. Eating 10 or fewer carbs per meal (only from things like veggies, not potatoes, bread, pasta, rice, etc.) makes my cravings vanish after just a couple weeks. The first couple weeks are rough sometimes, but after you get used to not having the carbs, they actually make you feel CRAPPY when you do have them!
I just wanted to chime in and say that I agree with other folks here. I think if you cut back to 20-30g a day for a couple of weeks, those cravings would go right on away.
Then again, like Grant had said, it isn't for everyone. I'm back to trying the 20-30g a day approach, I'd found my carb intake slowly increasing back from where I'd started and I didn't like it. 20-30 a day doesn't sound like a lot, but it can be.
I had a 3 egg and cheese omelet this morning, a very nutritional grilled chicken salad for lunch, and will probably have some form of chicken breast, or steak or something for dinner.
You can get PLENTY of food doing 20-30g of carbs a day, the food just has to come from proteins and fats. It's very tasty. :)
genie86333
11-02-2009, 07:17 PM
I just wanted to chime in and say that I agree with other folks here. I think if you cut back to 20-30g a day for a couple of weeks, those cravings would go right on away.
Then again, like Grant had said, it isn't for everyone. I'm back to trying the 20-30g a day approach, I'd found my carb intake slowly increasing back from where I'd started and I didn't like it. 20-30 a day doesn't sound like a lot, but it can be.
I had a 3 egg and cheese omelet this morning, a very nutritional grilled chicken salad for lunch, and will probably have some form of chicken breast, or steak or something for dinner.
You can get PLENTY of food doing 20-30g of carbs a day, the food just has to come from proteins and fats. It's very tasty. :)
I wanted to chime in with a Ditto! Cutting back your curbs further will possibly cause those cravings to diminish. (And, yes, Grant is right - it's not for everyone, but it doesn't hurt to try it & see if it works for you & see if it's something you can live with if it does.)
bunbury
11-03-2009, 01:40 AM
You can get PLENTY of food doing 20-30g of carbs a day, the food just has to come from proteins and fats. It's very tasty. :)
Another Ditto - It's been said before, but IMO it's much easier to do if you enjoy cooking. Going lower-carb (about 50g now) has opened up a whole new range of foods and flavors for me - and that makes for fun in the kitchen. So yes, I've lost some foods (and a lot of junk) from my diet ... but I've gained a lot too.
It took several weeks to kick the carb habit - but it was worth the effort. How do I know? I just look at my meter, my girth, my lipids, my blood pressure and the pile of tasty food on my plate.
jillybean
11-03-2009, 06:18 AM
Another Ditto - It's been said before, but IMO it's much easier to do if you enjoy cooking.
ugh, I hate cooking (and cleaning up afterwards!).
That said, I have very succesfully stuck to a low-carb plan while eating most meals out at restaurants. I can order a steak (mmm, prime rib...) with a salad and/or vegetable (broccoli, cauliflower, green beans - whatever they have other than potatoes or corn). Or I can get a big salad topped with roasted chicken, bacon, shredded cheese, and creamy dressing. Or Thai food, no rice, just meat, veggies, and a non-sweet sauce. Or even fast food - any burger or grilled chicken sandwich, toss the bun. Or KFC grilled chicken.
Of course, cooking yourself is usually "safer" in that there are fewer temptations, plus you know 100% for sure exactly what is going into your food. I do wish I enjoyed cooking or had the time to do it without resentment, but that's not my life right now. But, not to worry, as low carbing is still possible!
bunbury
11-03-2009, 06:22 AM
ugh, I hate cooking (and cleaning up afterwards!).
................
But, not to worry, as low carbing is still possible!
Yes! Of course it is :D
Although I was hoping you'd offer to do the washing up if I cooked ... :eating:
jillybean
11-03-2009, 06:29 AM
Although I was hoping you'd offer to do the washing up if I cooked ... :eating:
heh, I hope I'm always working full time, because I would make a HORRIBLE housewife! If I had all the time in the world to clean, I still wouldn't do it!
musique913
11-03-2009, 07:37 AM
Oh and I understand the cooking thing! I just graduated college, so now I can't use the excuse of I was a full time student to say I didn't like cooking and cleaning! lol
Ate successfully really low carb yesterday. My numbers were good all day long and everything. They were actually really low(normal low) at night, which was not normal, but I'm doing okay except first thing in the morning.
Woke up with a 128. Any ideas on how to fix that? I seem to be doing well all the rest of the day, and my bs goes down as soon as I'm up and moving. My after breakfast reading is usually lower than my morning!
Angela
Oh and I understand the cooking thing! I just graduated college, so now I can't use the excuse of I was a full time student to say I didn't like cooking and cleaning! lol
Ate successfully really low carb yesterday. My numbers were good all day long and everything. They were actually really low(normal low) at night, which was not normal, but I'm doing okay except first thing in the morning.
Woke up with a 128. Any ideas on how to fix that? I seem to be doing well all the rest of the day, and my bs goes down as soon as I'm up and moving. My after breakfast reading is usually lower than my morning!
Angela
Be patient, keep doing what you are doing, and sometimes it comes down! I found the earlier I stop eating ANYthing at night, the better. Others find a small carb and protein or one or the other snack, at bedtime, is helpful.
Dis-N-Dat
11-03-2009, 10:10 AM
Hi Angela:
My name is Georgia and I'm a carbaholic (:D ). I had to go cold turkey, make a complete lifestyle change. The secret for me is eating frequently...every two hours or so I have a bite of cheese or a piece of broccoli. I'm NEVER hungry now and even though my carb intake is 15g a day (all of it vegetable) my cravings are few and far between (although I miss baking the bread and that warm wonderful smell...mmmmmm).
Believe me, I'm as surpised as anyone could be. I've never met a bread, pasta or rice dish I didn't adore. You can do it!
sanflan
11-04-2009, 11:27 AM
I have had a hard time with low carb. But this time I am determined. I am buying real butter and using it to cook veggies like squash, asparagus, mushrooms and even collard greens (I am Southern). Adding a variety of foods gets rid of some of the boredom of just eating meat.
I don't eat nuts anymore because I could eat the whole canister and that really was not low carb (probably about 60 grams). I don't even think about fruit or bread it is just not food that works for me.
Anyway good luck to you, it isn't easy but it will be worth it!! Keep as much variety as possible, that is the trick.
NewdestinyX
11-04-2009, 11:42 AM
Anyway good luck to you, it isn't easy but it will be worth it!! Keep as much variety as possible, that is the trick.I say this with 'tongue in cheek' -- but there really 'is no' variety without carbs as far as I'm concerned.. That's what makes it so hard.. ;)
Hi Angela:
My name is Georgia and I'm a carbaholic (:D ). I had to go cold turkey, make a complete lifestyle change. The secret for me is eating frequently...every two hours or so I have a bite of cheese or a piece of broccoli. I'm NEVER hungry now and even though my carb intake is 15g a day (all of it vegetable) my cravings are few and far between (although I miss baking the bread and that warm wonderful smell...mmmmmm).
Believe me, I'm as surpised as anyone could be. I've never met a bread, pasta or rice dish I didn't adore. You can do it!I think it also fair to point out, as you've shared in other threads, Dis-n-Dat, you have suffered some pretty debilitating complications of D which have made for a 'powerful' motivator to make changes. Agreed? You wrote once:
No improvement, the symptoms are still present and scale at 8 out of 10 now. Sleep is down to 30 minutes at a time. I'm exhausted, cranky and miserable. Arrrrggghhhh! The problem with the rest of us which don't have such a battle with pain daily is that we wonder how 'far' we can push it. I know I struggle with that kind of thinking.
Josselyn
11-04-2009, 12:56 PM
Grant...if you'd seen what I've seen you wouldn't need to personally experience Georgia's debilitating complications to find motivation. I worked in a nursing home...enough said. A coworker, five years my junior (49) is missing most of one foot and recently had a stroke. My brother-in-law is in leg braces due to neuropathy in his feet and lower legs.
I could go on.
It is very motivational, indeed.
My dx scared me witless...and although I still bend the rules once in a while with food, I seldom need to be entertained by what I eat. BUT, if one is committed to controlling their D with diet, one finds low carb cookbooks and such for ideas. There's no need to be bored with food, and there's a variety to be had, even for those of us who really watch the carbs. You'd be amazed. I even have sweets...but I cannot mindlessly reach for whatever I want any more.
I often do resent that...but it's my life now and I will adjust.
But, you've gotta want to do it that way...and it takes longer than a few weeks to adjust to an eating plan that excludes most of the (damaging, but often delicious) readily available, addictive foods we've been ingesting for decades.
It takes time to see the results...to control cravings, to be creative with foods, to break the mental and physical addiction to carbohydrate-ridden foods.
It takes time and effort to break any bad habit and change one's tastes. And I'm still a work in progress on that score...
And Georgia, I admire the fact that you reach out to help others and give them the benefit of your experiences. I've missed reading your posts. I hope you're feeling better soon.
musique913
11-04-2009, 01:05 PM
I'm plodding along. The carb want seems to be fading a bit the last couple of days. I took the avenue of cutting out most except the veggies that have carbs, and it seems to be working better. I think my body needs to grow accustomed to not having as many carbs, seriously. I'm okay with my sugars all day except first thing in the morning, which is better than before anyway. They are always within normal range except when I wake up.
I'm not sure if I should exercise before bed, or eat before bed..
I'm probably one of the people that if I have one big serving of carbs I'll want more..so no potatoes for me for a while. No rice for a while..no bread for a while.
When I get to my target weight and A1C I'll slowly put those things back in if I can, in very small portions, because I think I'll be able to control my urges for large quantities of carbs by then.
Thank you everyone for sharing your thoughts and suggestions. I've read everything, and have a ton of thoughts.
I just want to say thanks for helping me.:)
fgummett
11-04-2009, 01:06 PM
I say this with 'tongue in cheek' -- but there really 'is no' variety without carbs as far as I'm concerned.. That's what makes it so hard.. ;):confused:
I disagree about the lack of variety, and know from many posts here on DF that I am not alone in enjoying a huge menu of tasty, rich and flavourful low-carb dishes. Have you seen this thread, for examples : http://www.diabetesforums.com/forum/dieting-and-nutrition-diabetes/39716-low-carb-daily-diet.html
After all how many notes are there in musical scale and yet with a little imagination...
I think it also fair to point out, as you've shared in other threads, Dis-n-Dat, you have suffered some pretty debilitating complications of D which have made for a 'powerful' motivator to make changes. Agreed? ... The problem with the rest of us which don't have such a battle with pain daily is that we wonder how 'far' we can push it. I know I struggle with that kind of thinking.Again I'm looking for clarification... are you suggesting that without some powerful motivation such as crippling neuropathy, blindness or other serious complication it is a struggle to get motivated to change -- presumably in terms of BG management?
Again I disagree, I have no difficulty finding plenty of motivation to improve my health, and I know -- from recent threads on the topic -- that many others share similar motivations such as personal regard, family, relatives, etc... if giving up the questionable pleasures of a daily latte-mocha-chino, chocolate-chip muffin, cookies, ice-cream or "goldfish" snacks improves my chances of running around after my grandchildren (not even twinkles in my son's eyes yet!) then that is all the motivation I need.
Granny Shanny
11-04-2009, 01:14 PM
I'm probably one of the people that if I have one big serving of carbs I'll want more..so no potatoes for me for a while. No rice for a while..no bread for a while.
We're definitely in the same boat, Angela . . . if I let down & have a significant portion, all I want is MORE.
And this week taught me that even small portions mess me up more than immediately apparent. I think I posted here somewhere that I hit 149 after my Mexican restaurant meal last night? Well, I was 152 this morning. I had taken my own low-carb tortilla for the meal, so I know it wasn't the tortilla - I use them at home all the time, but I had a scant 1/4 cup of spanish rice & prob'ly the same of refried beans. Pow! :( :( :(
What really makes it easier for me is having tasty no-carb foods nearby for snacks & small meals.
fgummett
11-04-2009, 01:19 PM
What really makes it easier for me is having tasty no-carb foods nearby for snacks & small meals.Same for me... I just don't have anything in the house that could lead me into temptation... but what I do have, I know I can eat pretty freely without fear of an high BG, so I don't have to go hungry or feel deprived ;)
jwags
11-04-2009, 04:12 PM
I know it seems like you are depriving yourself but you have to learn to make substituions. Get a copy of Dana Carpendar's low carb cookbooks. She makes all sorts of low carb muffins, cookies, brownies, pancakes,waffles, etc. Most are below 8 carbs a serving. I tend to eat only 15 carb a meal and am finally seeing fantastic almost normal numbers. I've also lost 13 pounds this summer and am now down to my goal weight. Try to find new ways to make your old favorites. I have just found Shiritake Japanese noodles. They have 3 carbs a serving and 3 g of soluble fiber and basically 0 calories. You can use them just like pasta and they fill you up. They keep my 2 hour numbers usually around 104.
musique913
11-04-2009, 09:25 PM
Going to bed now and my blood is 102. We'll see what happens tomorrow morning.
I have an appointment with my diabetic nutritionist on Tuesday. I'm not sure what else to do with my high blood sugars in the morning!
bunbury
11-05-2009, 01:50 AM
I'm plodding along. The carb want seems to be fading a bit the last couple of days.
It gets easier and easier. The carb-cravings fade and the longer you do it the more you'll understand how to eat a rich and varied diet - and what sort of snacks to keep to hand :) Frank's musical analogy is brilliant.
There are a few people who fight to hang onto their old life-style and rationalize their carb eating ... maybe they're still in denial or can't see what's at stake. Ignore.
Look at your meter and look at the people on this forum who achieve tight control. You'll also notice that a lot of them go very low carb for several months, loose weight, reduce their IR and then find that they can increase their carb intake.
Eat to your meter :) You'll find out what your daily carb intake should be, it just takes some patience.
yannah
11-05-2009, 05:16 AM
I have not read this whole thread, but once again I want to say, low carbing over year now. not boring. don't want to kill myself. no laying awake at night hoping for some potatoe.
the first 6 weeks were hard. but after that, easy. I do not crave carbs anymore. not tired, not light headed. not dying form it.
all I am is thinner, much thinner and much happier and much healthier.
and agian, I do not thin low carbing is a big fat and protein fest. that would make me feel bad. it is a love for small portions and quality food. and veggies, lots. with cheese. yum.
I have not read this whole thread, but once again I want to say, low carbing over year now. not boring. don't want to kill myself. no laying awake at night hoping for some potatoe.
the first 6 weeks were hard. but after that, easy. I do not crave carbs anymore. not tired, not light headed. not dying form it.
all I am is thinner, much thinner and much happier and much healthier.
and agian, I do not thin low carbing is a big fat and protein fest. that would make me feel bad. it is a love for small portions and quality food. and veggies, lots. with cheese. yum.
HEE! on the lying awake hoping for a potato!!!! Exactly. All of the above for me -- but it has been 8 - 9 months.
The starting is the hardest part.
I want carbs just as much as anybody. But I tried to lower them, per advice on this forum, to see how things worked out. Like magic, my numbers came down. Initially I felt worse (headaches, a lack of energy), but the numbers kept dropping and all of a sudden I felt great. It turned into positive feedback after that. I'd trim a few more carbs, felt better. Cut even more, saw even better results.
When things are bad, it's so easy for everything to snowball and get worse. But the converse can be true too. That's how it was with low carbing.
I think that for many people, if they at least start to decrease their carb intake, they'll see positive results. That should become motivation. And then, hopefully, they decrease it even more. Until they get to the point where they strike a balance between acceptable blood sugars and having a livable, life-long diet. For some of us, that's much lower than others. It really depends on your goals. Mine is to mimic "normal" people as much as possible. Others may not mind being a little higher because their goal is to still enjoy some of the foods that are basically forbidden to some of us. I don't think either way unacceptable at all, it just comes down to your personal choice.
Tribbles
11-05-2009, 08:08 AM
There are a few people who fight to hang onto their old life-style and rationalize their carb eating ... maybe they're still in denial or can't see what's at stake. Ignore.
I don't believe I am in denial. I just don't believe going low carb offers any real advantage to me. In fairness weight has never been an issue for me so I don't have the battles others do hence I tend to stay out of these debates. For some people such as me it is pretty much possible to retain their old lifestyle, but then my life style was healthy in the first place.
I could see for me is that a low carb diet may defer my need for insulin by some period but since avoiding insulin is not any sort of priority for me so that doesn't weigh very heavily. Disease treatment is as much about quality of life as it is longevity which is a delicate balance and everyone has to decide where their choice falls - my choice is to leave my life as unchanged as possible because I am happy with it. There are few right answers with this disease but ignoring opposing views if definitely not one of them.
bunbury
11-05-2009, 08:21 AM
my choice is to leave my life as unchanged as possible because I am happy with it. There are few right answers with this disease but ignoring opposing views if definitely not one of them.
Hi Tribbles, certainly didn't mean you - if your diet is working for you and your BG is under control then that's great.
There are a lot of diabetics who don't modify their diets enough (even on meds), don't get control and are locked into high BGs and declining health.
I take the view that tho' I was happy with my life as it was, it was that life, and its diet, that got me into this fix. I want my BG to be a normal as I can get and I'll use lifestyle, diet and meds to get it. I have kids to keep up with and grandchildren to look forward to. Diet is very powerful weapon against diabetes.
Diet is very powerful weapon against diabetes.
It is the ONLY weapon I have ... since I am only on metformin for now. Metformin only lowers your blood sugar, what, I have seen 8 - 10%? And depending on your starting point -- assuming iti s over 100, that can be as little as only 10 - 20 POINTS.
Fortunately for me, diet is VERY powerful!
musique913
11-05-2009, 08:35 AM
I'm getting better about the no carbs, in fact I went out last night and had steak and broccoli..lol..so yeah, it's easier when you are eating steak? ;)
Problem: I woke up with a 142 blood sugar again. Had a headache when I woke at 4:30 this morning, so I took some tylenol and went back to sleep. Can that cause my BS to go up?
Like I said before, my blood sugars go down as soon as I'm up and moving and get my metformin in. I'm not sure on the metformin xr, my endo didn't seem to want to do that when I asked.:( Any suggestions?
I take my a 500mg metformin and my 58 units of Lantus at night as they told me to do. BS is good the rest of the day except first thing in the morning!
RAR...it's so irritating.
Angela, if you have DP, not eating anything can make your blood sugar go up.
Other than that, keep it up on the diet!
fgummett
11-05-2009, 09:32 AM
...I went out last night and had steak and broccoli..lol..so yeah, it's easier when you are eating steak...it sure is ;) You might even get away with an "all dressed" baked potato... just don't eat the potato :eek: (or much of it anyway)... try the cheese, sour cream, bacon bits and maybe even the potato skin (the best bit in my view)... you'll need to test, of course, but with a little imagination you can have a feast AND an healthy BG :)
Subby
11-05-2009, 09:42 AM
I'm getting better about the no carbs, in fact I went out last night and had steak and broccoli..lol..so yeah, it's easier when you are eating steak? ;)
Problem: I woke up with a 142 blood sugar again. Had a headache when I woke at 4:30 this morning, so I took some tylenol and went back to sleep. Can that cause my BS to go up?
Like I said before, my blood sugars go down as soon as I'm up and moving and get my metformin in. I'm not sure on the metformin xr, my endo didn't seem to want to do that when I asked.:( Any suggestions?
I take my a 500mg metformin and my 58 units of Lantus at night as they told me to do. BS is good the rest of the day except first thing in the morning!
RAR...it's so irritating.
Sticking out like a red sore thumb for me in all this, is the issue of insulin dosage for you. If your body can't keep up with basal (biological) needs, it's a possibility that nothing you do with your diet is going to fix it. You could hit your head against diet for years and still the answer may be you simply need more basal insulin.
The problem intensifies when you need more basal overnight (or early morning) than the rest of day. That's a whole lot of fun, yes. But the answers might well be in more insulin solutions.
musique913
11-05-2009, 12:33 PM
So is there a kind of insulin that will take me through the night better? I take my lantus around 10pm each night, so I would think it would work..especially since my bloods before taking it are usually between 95 and 100.
I'm confused by all of this.
Tribbles
11-05-2009, 02:13 PM
So is there a kind of insulin that will take me through the night better? I take my lantus around 10pm each night, so I would think it would work..especially since my bloods before taking it are usually between 95 and 100.
I'm confused by all of this.
The problem (and advantage) of Lantus is that it has a very flat profile. While this has the huge advantage of predictablity it also, as Subby was saying, doesn't match our basal glucose output. Most people have a spike in the early morning where their body is getting ready for the day ahead (the comment someone made about "finding breakfast or avoiding being breakfast" tickled me) and the Lantus stays flat so your levels rise.
Really the only way to fix this is with a pump so you can customise the profile to fit your basal output but Type 2s don't get those until they have very little beta cell function left. I have seen discussions on using NPH to try and spike at the same time but that is risky in my view unless you *really* know what you are doing.
ShottleBop
11-05-2009, 02:39 PM
I'm on the train, on my way up to L.A. for the evening. I just listened to Jimmy Moore's (Livin' La Vida Low Carb) Episode no. 303, with Dr. Helen Hilts. She has had a family practice in Scottsdale, AZ, for the past 23 years. 5 years ago, she developed Type 2 diabetes. After reading the literature, she decided that Dr. Bernstein had things right, and started low-carbing. She maintains (on diet alone) an A1c of 4.9; her goal is to keep her BGs under 120 at all times. (At 120, glucose molecules start attaching themselves to other molecules--like hemoglobin--and affecting their function; at 160, glucose molecules starts gluing other molecules together (crosslinking)--actually creating plastics, of a sort.)
For reasons described in more detail in the interview,* she does not subscribe to the ADA's 45-grams-of-carbs-per-meal-then-medicate-to-keep-BGs-in-check approach. It's a 30-minute podcast, and worth listening to.
____________________
* Short form: food labels are only required to be accurate within 20%, and there are many factors can affect the speed of digestion and other processes that affect BG and insulin production; these make it very difficult to control BGs with any precision if carb intake is high (i.e., the Law of Small Numbers).
musique913
11-05-2009, 04:21 PM
Doc changed my Lantus dose today, to see if it helps my morning number. She put it up a few units and told me to not change it. She doesn't think it will have much of an effect on my A1C. Hmph.
We'll see.. I just don't like the high numbers in the morning, especially when my numbers are between normal levels as soon as I eat and get moving.
bunbury
11-07-2009, 05:41 AM
Hi Musique913,
This chart below shows the 7-day rolling average of my BG readings from my first 30 days of low-carbing (June/July 08). My entry point was an allegedly ‘healthy’ low-fat diet and I switched overnight to about 30 grams carbs a day (I was not taking meds, but the principal would be the same). The results appeared quickly and since then my control has got better and better.
Are you familiar with the Rule of Small Numbers? If not, see Bernstein. IMO: I think it’s a very powerful argument in favour of almost all T2s, whether on meds, exercise or whatever, going low-carb for at least a few months. There are some medical exemptions.
It works like this: If you are on 150 grams carbs every day - or 120 grams one day, 200 the next, then 150 and so on - it’s very hard to understand how small incremental increases in meds, a bit more exercise, a slice of bread etc etc are affecting your BGs. There are so many big variations meal-to-meal and day-to-day. Look through this forum for threads where higher-carb eaters are trying to adjust their doses – it can be tough.
But if you cut back the carbs and go low for a while, all that changes. Chose your own targets, but say breakfast is consistently 5 grams carbs, lunch is 10 and dinner is 20, then it is the small changes, no longer lost in big spikes and variations, that show on your meter and you can fine tune your diet, meds and lifestyle. You can see the impact of half an apple, a slice of bread, an extra unit, or going for a brisk walk. For most people, this diet also brings weight, blood pressure and lipids into line.
Once you’ve got control and you understand how it all works, you can start to work out the balance you want in your life, such as more carbs + more insulin. You’ll know exactly what you can add to your diet and to what effect in +/- BG. You’ll also know what impact your changes are having on weight, BP, lipid profile etc. In short, you’ll find a balance that suits you. I’ve now increased my carb intake 50% or so – and I’m very comfortable with my life and what I’m achieving.
The Rule of Small Numbers: It’s worth the effort and you’ll be in control. YMMV, and this is all IMO.
CarrieOakey
11-07-2009, 05:56 AM
I've been doing 30 grams of carbs for each meal for a couple of weeks now at the suggestion of my doctor and diabetic nutritionists, and ****ed if I don't want every carb under the sun.
I find carbs to be addictive. The more I eat, the more I want. I guess it's like when you stop smoking. At first all you think of is having a smoke...!! It will get better. Apparently a craving only lasts 2 minutes. What works for me is getting really busy during cravings.
NewdestinyX
11-07-2009, 07:15 AM
I find carbs to be addictive. The more I eat, the more I want. Though I understand the intent and concern in this statement I have to say - you 'want' them more because your body's "requesting" more. A craving is often perceived as ONLY a mental thing - but it's physiological. And it's a 'good thing'. Our bodies need energy. Glucose (from carbs) creates energy. Protein creates strength. And fats provide the lubrication for all body systems and storage for future energy.
When we lower carb intake the body will naturally react and even eventually adjust but it requires the body to look to other sources for energy. When we're over weight it can burn fat for energy and even proteins can be converted to glucose in the liver - but when we lo carb we're sort of doing something 'unnatural' to the body's system. Super Lo carbers force their bodies into a pretty difficult situation and the 'reaction' (Craving) is very normal and in my opinion shouldn't be completely ignored or made out to be a bad inconvenient thing. Over time if you ignore the body's requests long enough it will stop asking'. I'm not convinced this is always a good thing.
Now -- having said all that -- the 'type of carbs' we take in makes all the difference in the world. Complex carbs over simple ones will slow Blood glucose level rises. That's good. But processed carbs are not great (though enjoyable) and they can create an addictive feeling merely based on the chemicals in the food. That's bad.
But 'craving' is the body saying 'I have a natural NEED'. ;)
fgummett
11-07-2009, 07:27 AM
The simple view of the body's need expressed above, does not account for indigenous communities who only eat what is locally available in season... think of the traditional diet of the Inuit, Massai or N. American Plains Indians. Nor does it offer any explanation for why the "carb carvings" go away when carb is no longer a major part of the diet... based on the above, one would expect the cravings to get stronger.
Is dietary carbohydrate essential for human nutrition? (http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/75/5/951-a)The currently established human essential nutrients are water, energy, amino acids (histidine, isoleucine, leucine, lysine, methionine, phenylalanine, threonine, tryptophan, and valine), essential fatty acids (linoleic and {alpha}-linolenic acids), vitamins (ascorbic acid, vitamin A, vitamin D, vitamin E, vitamin K, thiamine, riboflavin, niacin, vitamin B-6, pantothenic acid, folic acid, biotin, and vitamin B-12), minerals (calcium, phosphorus, magnesium, and iron), trace minerals (zinc, copper, manganese, iodine, selenium, molybdenum, and chromium), electrolytes (sodium, potassium, and chloride), and ultratrace minerals (4). (Note the absence of specific carbohydrates from this list.)
and if I may quote myself from another thread...
You will find web sites that... claim we only burn fat when starving... in my view this is incorrect. We are adapted to burn fat and/or glucose... much like a hybrid car that uses its electric motor for stop/start traffic around town but switches to the gasoline engine for longer trips. The trouble is that so few of us spend anything more than a couple of hours between refined/concentrated carb-laden meals/snacks, that burning fat and producing ketones seems out of the ordinary. Some tissues, like brain cells, do seem to prefer burning Glucose but even on a zero-carb diet plenty of Glucose can be provided by the Liver converting Amino Acids (Protein building blocks) into Glucose by a process named Gluconeogenesis. Beyond that, in true starvation mode, even the brain can adapt to burning ketone bodies... ... So far as I am aware, there is no metabolic pathway to convert fat to Glucose, nor is there any need for it to do so.
Subby
11-07-2009, 08:00 AM
But processed carbs are not great (though enjoyable) and they can create an addictive feeling merely based on the chemicals in the food. That's bad.
But 'craving' is the body saying 'I have a natural NEED'. ;)
I don't see how "addictive feelings" caused by refined foods are not cravings, which seems to be what you are suggesting here.
ShottleBop
11-07-2009, 08:08 AM
. . .
But 'craving' is the body saying 'I have a natural NEED'. ;)
When you're breaking an addiction to nicotine (or heroin, or alcohol), your cravings for it are natural, too.
Go to Livin' La Vida Low Carb, and listen to the interview with Dr. Helen Hilts.
(Her rule: "No roots, no fruits, no grain, and no milk."*) Listen to her explanation of carb cravings. Her recommendation for going low-carb: do it all at once, but eat whenever you feel hungry (protein and fat, BEFORE the hunger becomes unmanageable)--even if that means you're eating 10 times a day.
________
That's just "no milk," not "no dairy."
bunbury
11-07-2009, 08:11 AM
A craving is often perceived as ONLY a mental thing - but it's physiological. And it's a 'good thing'.
.....
(Craving) is very normal
.....
processed carbs .... can create an addictive feeling
.....
But 'craving' is the body saying 'I have a natural NEED'. ;)
Addicts (bad?) don't have cravings (good?)?
How do you classify caffeine and opium? Physiological craving or addictive feeling?
NewdestinyX
11-07-2009, 08:17 AM
When you're breaking an addiction to nicotine (or heroin, or alcohol), your cravings for it are natural, too.
Go to Livin' La Vida Low Carb, and listen to the interview with Dr. Helen Hilts.
(Her rule: "No roots, no fruits, no grain, and no milk."*) Listen to her explanation of carb cravings. Her recommendation for going low-carb: do it all at once, but eat whenever you feel hungry (protein and fat, BEFORE the hunger becomes unmanageable)--even if that means you're eating 10 times a day. ________
That's just "no milk," not "no dairy."With respect Shottle for the amazing success you're personally experiencing, if we were to follow every new fad nutrition mantra out there we would live hopelessly confused lives. Any time we 'starve' (or severely limit) our bodies of certain basic food types we're asking for trouble somewhere down the line. "Moderation" is the name of the game IMHO. But do your thing, my friend!! Glad it's working for ya! :)
bunbury
11-07-2009, 08:32 AM
With respect Shottle for the amazing success you're personally experiencing, if we were to follow every new fad nutrition mantra out there we would live hopelessly confused lives. Any time we 'starve' ourbody of certain basic food types we're asking for trouble somewhere down the line. "Moderation" is the name of the game IMHO. But do your thing, my friend!! Glad it's working for ya! :)
'Moderation' is a subjective opinion and in this context reveals prejudice . Shottlebop's health regime works - it delivers low BGs, a good BMI and a healthy lipid profile. It can put neuropathies in reverse. The reasons why it works are well documented and if you do a little reading you will find that your hi-carb low-fat diet is the 'new fad nutrition mantra' - new kid on the block. Un-'amazingly' Shottlebop's regime works for a lot of very happy people.
NewdestinyX
11-07-2009, 08:36 AM
Is dietary carbohydrate essential for human nutrition? (http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/75/5/951-a)
These articles so often read like 'opinion pieces'. Study parameters weren't even given in the 'article'. And we really need to quote 'more' to make clear other aspects of the author's concessions as this from the same article.
It is possible that if more humans consumed diets severely restricted in carbohydrate, a carbohydrate deficiency syndrome might become apparent.
When carbohydrates are eliminated from the diet, there is a risk that intakes of vitamins, minerals, and perhaps yet unidentified beneficial nutrients provided by carbohydrate-rich foodstuffs (eg, fiber) will be inadequate. There are case reports of extreme dieters who probably developed deficiencies. One dieter who only ate cheese, meat, and eggs (no vegetables) was reported to have developed thiamine-deficient optic neuropathy (14). The name of the game is moderation, gang. (imho)
fgummett
11-07-2009, 08:49 AM
Actually not an 'article' but a "Letter to the Editor" of the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition by Eric C Westman MD, MHS, of the Department of Medicine Duke University Medical Center. And he concludes by suggesting Although there is certainly no evidence from which to conclude that extreme restriction of dietary carbohydrate is harmless, I was surprised to find that there is similarly little evidence to conclude that extreme restriction of carbohydrate is harmful. In fact, the consequential breakdown of fat as a result of carbohydrate restriction may be beneficial in the treatment of obesity. Perhaps it is time to carefully examine the issue of whether carbohydrate is an essential component of human nutrition.Moderation is indeed a fine ideal but as pointed out, it can be subjective.
NewdestinyX
11-07-2009, 08:49 AM
I don't eat hi carb. I tried super lo carb and it didn't change my numbers one bit. I started Lantus because my doctor agreed with me that super lo carb wasn't the best for everyone given my digestive issues I've shared with the forum. I can't digest many things well that would be required on a superlo carb diet. My 30 day average is now under 120.
notme
11-07-2009, 09:09 AM
The OP wanted to know if others were having problems going very low carb. This question would obviously lead to a lot of different opinions. However, we have veered pretty far off topic and the arguments have begun. People will have different opinions on whether or not very low carb diet is optimum.
Please lets leave this topic open. The arguments are getting in the way of discussion. We are not always going to like the way someone writes something. However, as long as the statement is not personal I would like to leave the subject open.
fgummett
11-07-2009, 09:19 AM
I stand by my statement about cravings also being indicators of needs.Perhaps you can clarify how/why the cravings diminish as we eat fewer refined/concentrated carbs -- at least in my experience and as reported here on DF by many others? If the craving signifies that these are essential to our body -- presumably like water or air -- then why doesn't the craving get stronger?
Please understand that even as a "super low-carber" I still eat plenty of carbs... mainly in green leafy vegetables... a fine source of many micro-nutrients. Taking into consideration my health outcomes, I just no longer see the need for, nor anymore enjoy, Danish pastries, or donuts, or muffins, cookies, goldfish snacks etc... although I may have a piece of birthday on a social occasion.
NewdestinyX
11-07-2009, 09:32 AM
Perhaps you can clarify how/why the cravings diminish as we eat fewer refined/concentrated carbs -- at least in my experience and as reported here on DF by many others? If the craving signifies that these are essential to our body -- just like water or air -- then why doesn't the craving get stronger?You learn to ignore it. Even 'priests' under celibacy guidelines eventually learn to 'ignore' something as natural as human relations.
Please understand that even as a "super low-carber" I still eat plenty of carbs... mainly in green leafy vegetables... a fine source of many micro-nutrients. Taking into consideration my health outcomes, I just no longer see the need for, nor anymore enjoy, Danish pastries, or donuts, or muffins, cookies, goldfish snacks etc... although I may have a piece of birthday on a social occasion.My point was to say that 'cravings' aren't all bad. They can be indicators of 'body needs'. To ignore those needs can create other problems. 'Super Lo carbing' (Atkins), despite Bunbury's retort, is the 'new kid on the block'. In 20-30 more years we'll see if it was 'something good'. Already protein toxicity issues are appearing in studies as a result of focussing on only protein and fat as sources of food.
bunbury
11-07-2009, 09:34 AM
Right here Bunbury. The whole paragraph was snide and unacceptable in its
implication.
I note that in your 3 month experimental campaign in support of higher-carb dieting you ...
Oh dear. Higher-carb = high-carb ???
Frank's asked a good question about carb cravings and it's on topic: If the craving signifies that these are essential to our body -- presumably like water or air -- then why doesn't the craving get stronger?
'Super Lo carbing' (Atkins), despite Bunbury's retort, is the 'new kid on the block'. In 20-30 more years we'll see if it was 'something good'. Already protein toxicity issues are appearing in studies as a result of focussing on only protein and fat as sources of food
It was a regular diabetes treatment in the decades before WWII and only went out with the appearance of the now increasingly discredited theories about low-fat diets.
fgummett
11-07-2009, 09:45 AM
You learn to ignore it. Even 'priests' under celibacy guidelines eventually learn to 'ignore' something as natural as human relations.I'll bite my tongue on the priest comment but as for the rest I'll dust off an old analogy of mine... how long could you sit underwater at the deep end of a swimming pool and 'ignore' your craving for breath?
My point was to say that 'cravings' aren't all bad. They can be indicators of 'body needs'. To ignore those needs can create other problems. 'Super Lo carbing' (Atkins), despite Bunbury's retort, is the 'new kid on the block'. In 20-30 more years we'll see if it was 'something good'. Already protein toxicity issues are appearing in studies as a result of focussing on only protein and fat as sources of food.Atkins is simply a recent re-incarnation of a very old idea... look up William Banting in the 1800s, Leo Tolstoy's "Anna Karenina", Weston Price MS., D.D.S., F.A.G.D in the 1930's, T. L. Cleave, M.R.C.P. in the 1950's... or if you can, ask your Mother or Grandmother what dietary changes she would make to lose weight... switch to low-fat milk..? I don't think so... cut out the bread and potatoes more like.
I'd be very interested to read any research you have regarding "protein toxicity issues ... appearing in studies as a result of [focusing] on only protein and fat".
notme
11-07-2009, 10:49 AM
I have tried desperately to keep this thread open for others to read and learn. This will be my last try. I edited posts that added content, but deleted personal attacks or statements as asked by all members that pm'd. I tried to keep it fair and did not change content. If content was changed, I deleted.
Please guys, can we keep this a good healthy discussion and leave out the snide comments?
musique913
11-07-2009, 08:16 PM
I would prefer it remain open too, because I want to learn more about this topic.:)
My opinion so far about low-carbing it: I have been low carb two weeks. My blood sugars now average about 85. Before I went low carb, my blood sugars were anywhere from 230 to 120ish. So it works for me, even if it is really hard. I've come to realize that my body needs this right now, to get my bloods under control, and to make me feel better. To me, as much as I love unhealthy chinese food, ice cream, bread and other carbs, I also value my health immensely and want to keep my numbers under control. If I have to sacrifice a little to do that, so be it. I want to be healthy.
I'm doing just fine using veggies as my carbs, and keeping my food to just meat and veggies, now that I got past the first week. I thought I was going to die those first few days..lol
ShottleBop
11-07-2009, 10:45 PM
Went to lunch at a Chinese restaurant today. Small restaurant, family owned. They had a sizzling beef plate. I explained what I need to them, and they made it without sauce--just salt. Beef, onion, celery, mushrooms, onions. It was delicious.
My opinion so far about low-carbing it: I have been low carb two weeks. My blood sugars now average about 85. Before I went low carb, my blood sugars were anywhere from 230 to 120ish. So it works for me, even if it is really hard. I've come to realize that my body needs this right now, to get my bloods under control, and to make me feel better. To me, as much as I love unhealthy chinese food, ice cream, bread and other carbs, I also value my health immensely and want to keep my numbers under control. If I have to sacrifice a little to do that, so be it. I want to be healthy.
I'm doing just fine using veggies as my carbs, and keeping my food to just meat and veggies, now that I got past the first week. I thought I was going to die those first few days..lol
And that is the key musique913. You've been able to significantly reduce your sugars. Congratulations on that. I don't care HOW a person does it, that has to be the driving force behind how we choose to manage T2 diabetes.
bunbury
11-08-2009, 02:53 AM
And that is the key musique913. You've been able to significantly reduce your sugars. Congratulations on that. I don't care HOW a person does it, that has to be the driving force behind how we choose to manage T2 diabetes.
Ditto
musique913, I put up a post a while back about the Rule of Small Numbers which got a bit lost. It's a rule that's worth reading up on because, IMO, it puts what you are doing into context. We can mix and match all sorts of quantities of meds, diet, excercise - whatever works is the desired outcome. If we are fine tuning small numbers of these things, as you are, the journey to successful control is much, much easier.
Good luck and keep up the good work :congrats: an average of 85 in two weeks is a great achievement.
fgummett
11-08-2009, 04:54 AM
Glad to hear of your progress Musique :) perhaps it is not for everyone but if you can stick with it, it now seems as if it will pay off in the long run. Some like to ease down the carbs but for me the better approach was to cut them out completely, establish a good baseline (and a good BG) and then gradually reintroduce some carbs... testing BG all the while. I find it surprising how my tastes have changed; such that things I may have seen as "treats" before are now quite disappointing.
If you do a web search on "dr bernstein's law of small numbers", often the first URL offered is an online (free) version of chapter 7 of his book "Diabetes Solution"
Some like to ease down the carbs but for me the better approach was to cut them out completely, establish a good baseline (and a good BG) and then gradually reintroduce some carbs... testing BG all the while.
Worked that way for me too Frank. At first I was extremely low carb - never went over 60 grams, but I'd say 90% of the time, I was below 30 grams. As my IR decreased, thankfully, I was able to reintroduce natural carbs (fruits). That in itself expanded my menu alot.
I still get "cravings" every now and again. And you know what? I'll feed it. But in a very small quantity. And then I move on.
It's funny how the diet morphs over time. I thought I was going to have to be extremely low carb the rest of my life. I'm glad it expanded a bit. However, I seriously doubt it will expand more (even if I can). The occasional piece of bread or potato, cool. No problem. But I simply cannot go back to 3/4 of a pound of pasta at dinner :)
Personally, I feel those "cravings for carbs" are more about an addiction to foods we abused than they are about the body screaming for something it actually needs.
On a personal note: As it turns out Frank, my diet is VERY similar to yours. I probably have a couple more rare allowances and I can't stick to homegrown foods unless I want to live on cactus and sagebrush, but your diet works for me. I thank you for the pointers all these months. Helped to save me. Seriously.
jillybean
11-09-2009, 05:39 AM
Worked that way for me too Frank. At first I was extremely low carb - never went over 60 grams, but I'd say 90% of the time, I was below 30 grams. As my IR decreased, thankfully, I was able to reintroduce natural carbs (fruits). That in itself expanded my menu alot.
Me three. Right after diagnosis, I set myself a max goal of 50g carbs per day and stuck to it, rarely going over that max and, if so, not by much. In 3 months, my A1C dropped from 9-point-something to 6.2, and my triglycerides dropped by more than half (had been slightly high at 165 at diagnosis, dropped to 70-something 3 months later).
More recently, I went even more extreme and did 8 weeks of never eating more than 5g total carbs (not net) at any one time, so I averaged maybe 15g total carbs per day. My A1C after that was 5.1, and I never experienced a low.
davef
11-09-2009, 07:08 AM
When I started out reducing carbs I was eating <60-70 per day, now I can and do eat more, generally around 90-120g per day.
bunbury
11-09-2009, 10:55 AM
Originally Posted by jps
Worked that way for me too Frank. At first I was extremely low carb - never went over 60 grams, but I'd say 90% of the time, I was below 30 grams. As my IR decreased, thankfully, I was able to reintroduce natural carbs (fruits). That in itself expanded my menu alot.
Me four ... altho' not in the mornings or at lunch time when I still have to heavily restrict my intake. I was at 30 a day, the IR decreased and my 20 gram evening meal is up to 40, or wait for it ... 50 on high-days and holidays. Part of it's knowing what to eat - 40 grams of chocolate cake for dinner would be a disaster :eek:
The odd thing is that back before I went strict low-carb a 40-50 gram dinner would have spiked my meter, now I'm disappointed if it goes above 110 (which it does, sometimes :) ).
Can anyone explain this mechanism? It seems a common experience.
NewdestinyX
11-09-2009, 11:28 AM
now I'm disappointed if it goes above 110 (which it does, sometimes :) )..This is curious to me since non-diabetics, not typically lo carbing, go above 110 on a daily basis at each meal. They recover often better than a T2D does. So I'm wondering why a diabetic's standard would be higher than a non-diabetic's? Can anyone explain this to me? It seems overachieving to me. But that perception could be wrong.
fgummett
11-09-2009, 11:47 AM
This is curious to me since non-diabetics, not typically lo carbing, go above 110 on a daily basis at each meal. They recover often better than a T2D does. So I'm wondering why a diabetic's standard would be higher than a non-diabetic's? Can anyone explain this to me? It seems overachieving to me. But that perception could be wrong.Is that [in bold] an established fact? I suspect we are talking here about the 2 hour postprandial level.
For my money I'd suggest that the following quote is a truer representation of a normal, healthy non-D BG response, as stated by our resident "Mad Doctor"At a diabetes technology meeting a few years ago I saw a presentation from some guys who were testing a continuous glucose monitor. It sampled interstitial fluid every 10 or 15 minutes for 3 or 5 days, I don't remember which. When definitely non-diabetic adult subjects (BMI less than 25, FBS less than 100, and a1c less than 6) wore the machine, eating one day in the clinic and one day at home as they wished, 80% of their readings were under 100. That is 20 hours out of 24. So for an hour to an hour and a half after each meal they might be over 100, but by two hours or just a few minutes later they were back under 100. And they were not only under 100, they were under 90 and even under 80.
bunbury
11-09-2009, 11:49 AM
This is curious to me since non-diabetics, not typically lo carbing, go above 110 on a daily basis at each meal. They recover often better than a T2D does. So I'm wondering why a diabetic's standard would be higher than a non-diabetic's? Can anyone explain this to me? It seems overachieving to me. But that perception could be wrong.
Read again and you'll find your perception is wrong. 120 will do, but I get a nice warm glow when I'm below 110 (on the same diet Mrs Bunbury will be 10 to 20 below me).
Can you point me to references for your claim: "non-diabetics .... go above 110 on a daily basis at each meal"?. That's very interesting, especially, if as you say, they are not lo-carbing. And 3 times a day?
I think you're asking a question that's off-topic - there are lots of threads you can look at here that discus 'normal' BGs, that look at when elevated BGs increase diabetic risks and how A1cs over 5% increase the risk of CHD (they do).
NewdestinyX
11-09-2009, 12:17 PM
Is that [in bold] an established fact? I suspect we are talking here about the 2 hour postprandial level.
For my money I'd suggest that the following quote is a truer representation of a normal, healthy non-D BG response, as stated by our resident "Mad Doctor"Bunbury's right.. Let's not do this here. I just didn't want people here to get the idea that under 100 was required 1 hr post a meal. 2hrPP is when things should return to normal and I would completely agree that under 100 is a great goal and for non-diabetics just like your citation says there, Frank, even under 90 and 80. Totally agreed. Bunbury made a broad statement that he never wants to be over 110 which sounded to me like 'ever'. A BG of 110-130, :30min-1hrPP after the normal American diet 100g of carbs per meal (daily recommended amount) is no problem as long as it returns to under 100 after 2-3 hours max.
Many of us are encouraged by diabetic counselors to check our meters at the 1hrPP point to test foods and see if there's spiking. I didn't want newer ones to think that a BG of 115, 120, 125 or even 135 was a terrible problem at the 1hr mark after a meal. I may have been reading too much into Bunbury's statement. But clarity is everything around here. ;)
fgummett
11-09-2009, 12:56 PM
The odd thing is that back before I went strict low-carb a 40-50 gram dinner would have spiked my meter, now I'm disappointed if it goes above 110 (which it does, sometimes
I just didn't want people here to get the idea that under 100 was required 1 hr post a meal.
...
Bunbury made a broad statement that [he] never wants to be over 110 which sounded to me like 'ever'.
For the sake of clarity I'm curious as to how you go from "now I'm disappointed if it goes above 110... which it does"
to
"the idea that under 100 was required 1 hr post a meal"
AND
from "now I'm disappointed if it goes above 110... which it does"
to
"a broad statement that he never wants to be over 110"
For comparison I have similar readings where I barely have any postprandial spike -- just nice slow curves all day -- and most days my "highest" [relative term] BG reading is on waking for which I assume I have Gluconeogenesis and DP to thank.
fgummett
11-09-2009, 01:26 PM
Many of us are encouraged by diabetic counselors to check our meters at the 1hrPP point to test foods and see if there's spiking.I'm also puzzled by this statement... I have often seen [good] advice here on DF to test around meals, including the 1hr postprandial, but I have never received this same advice from any of my health care team, nor do I recall any poster saying that they had this suggested (let alone encouraged) by their "diabetic counsellors"... in fact I get the stronger impression that the most frequently advised BG test is the Fasting only. :confused: Am I wrong?
I'd agree that clarity is important but even a clear statement needs to be based in verifiable facts and/or personal experience. Agreed? In fact I'd suggest that this rule is even more important for a clear/unambiguous statement.
princesslinda
11-09-2009, 01:35 PM
For the sake of clarity, let's review the initial post and try to keep things on topic please.
This low-carb diet is hard!
I've been doing 30 grams of carbs for each meal for a couple of weeks now at the suggestion of my doctor and diabetic nutritionists, and ****ed if I don't want every carb under the sun.
I have really good control since I started it, except the one day I went off because of my graduation, but it's still really difficult.
I find myself craving things I never really ate before to begin with! Now that I can't have certain things because they are too high carb, these are the things I want to eat! Of course when I can't have them it's making me grumpy as anything. I swear that carbs make us in a better mood!
I've been meditating and doing exercise to curb my issues..but I just needed to vent. I think sometimes it just helps to know that there are other people out there having the same problems..and don't judge you for it.
Thanks for the time.
Angela
bunbury
11-09-2009, 10:01 PM
For the sake of clarity, let's review the initial post and try to keep things on topic please.
Hi Musique,
I think motivation is the key. We all need a bit of support from time to time! On this forum you will find some really inspiring and motivational people. JPS has already called Frank a life-save, and I agree. He brings intellectual rigor, experience and great diabetes control - I read and I learn :)
It's also useful to have some non-Forum sources. Knowledge is strength in the fight against diabetes, misinformation can undermine confidence and we all need to be able to identify the occasional outburst of Forum daftness. Gretchen Becker is a great, level-head general reference book and Dr Bernstein is an eye-opener, even if you chose not to follow his diet. Both have lots of well sourced information on 'normal' BGs, testing regimes and a great deal more. Gary Taubes' "Good Calories, Bad Calories" neatly charts how the rise of low-fat diets in the late 20th century usurped low-carb diets with terrible consequences for diabetics. There are many more.
The occasional treat helps with motivation too - I can send you a recipe for cocoa that comes in at about 4 grams carbs to the mug if you want it :D
You're getting great numbers - and that's really motivating! Keep up the good work. :)
Just my opinion and YMMV
fgummett
11-10-2009, 04:37 AM
Seriously Bunbury and JPS I really appreciate the generous words but I'm also pretty uncomfortable with them :o I may be enthusiastic about the approach that has worked for me but let's not forget that I also had surgery to help my weight loss along. And while I like to think, I am well-read on those areas of D, obesity and diet that interest me, I also tend to jump in with both feet to correct what I read as potentially misleading statements -- this is not always productive and invariably leads the thread even further off topic :)
---
Back on topic... I'd heartily endorse the same books mentioned above; with my usual disclaimer that Taubes GCBC can be a challenging read (although well worth the effort).
Many of these same topics are covered in a light-hearted but factual way in the Movie "Fat Head"... proposed as a response to "Super Size Me" Tom Naughton sets out to lose weight, reduce his fat % and improve his cholesterol/lipids while eating only fast food for a month. Along the way he tell us the story of the low-fat dogma and what happened when the politicians became involved :thumbsup: Fat Head - The Trailer... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgBLQIJEcbE&feature=player_embedded)
Fat Head - The Excerpt... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNYlIcXynwE&NR=1)
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