How long would we last

[Simon]

Does anyone have any idea just how long we could last without insulin? Would we be dead within a couple of days or would it take a couple of weeks before DK finally got us? It would be handy to know just in case I get stranded on a desert island or more to the point because it's one of those questions people keep asking me.

[camjen1]

The one day my pumps infusion set failed I was sent into DKA in a matter of hours and I probably would have been dead by the end of the night if I didn't seek medical attention. Of course all of us T1 used to go without insulin before diagnosis. Now I can't go a couple hours and I'm sicker then a dog.

[Tokyo Cate]

The one day my pumps infusion set failed I was sent into DKA in a matter of hours and I probably would have been dead by the end of the night if I didn't seek medical attention. Of course all of us T1 used to go without insulin before diagnosis. Now I can't go a couple hours and I'm sicker then a dog.

I have never gone without insulin for that long, but the few times I had my infusion set fail, it sent me skyrocketing; however, in those cases, I was eating as if I had been getting the usual supply and if I knew I wasn't getting insulin, I would avoid carbs, drink more fluids and try to exercise mildly which would extend the inevitable somewhat.

I would like to believe I could hold out for a few days (earthquake or such).

[Funnygrl]

Usually people can go longer without insulin before diagnosis than they can after they begin treatment because your body's insulin production doesn't fail all at once- you go through a honeymoon.

[Mick]

In the couple of years before insulin was discovered, children could live as long as 18-24 months after dignoisis, and a few lived much longer. As a child, I spoke to one of these survivors once, and was amazed at how they did it. They were basically put on starvation diets, and some doctors even gave them small amounts of alcohol, for even then they realized that alcohol prevented the basal release of glucose from the liver, and so allowed blood sugar levels to lower. These children were starved to emaciation, but might live a couple of years.

Michael

[Gangrel]

Man, I wouldn't want to even think about this. I feel so yucky when I go high WITH insulin, I can't imagine a day without it......

[KickStart101]

Does anyone have any idea just how long we could last without insulin? Would we be dead within a couple of days or would it take a couple of weeks before DK finally got us? It would be handy to know just in case I get stranded on a desert island or more to the point because it's one of those questions people keep asking me.

Hi Simon:

That would vary with each person, Type, etc., etc. I've mentioned
my coma experience a couple times before(sorry to bore those who've
already seen it).

When I was 18 yrs., I woke up a bit late for work. I quickly washed
up, dressed and out the door to catch the bus. Someone at work extended
an invite to McDonald's or Harvey's, not far away. I had a burger, a fries
and a large pop. It was a very hot day and the water at work was warm and
didn't taste good so I drank 2 more pop. I still felt okay. (I wasn't taught to
test much so I didn't bring my tester to work at that time).

I got home at 5:45 p.m., took my usual amount of long-lasting Insulin(totally
unaware that I forgot my morning Insulin), quickly had a sandwich and soup,
packed my suitcase for a week-end at home visit and off to catch
the bus.

I sat down beside a Guy who looked about 22 yrs., after chatting for a while
I started getting really tired and a throbbing headache so I asked
him if I could sleep on his shoulder. :) (It was perfectly innocent and more comfy).
He said "Sure, if you want to". End of bus trip, I got off(around 9:00 p.m.)and
immediately threw up, thankfully only once. My Parents picked me up, we talked
for hrs., I felt a bit queasy(sp). I got to bed around 2:00 a.m. Woke up around
2:45 a.m., throwing up again. Then a little later throwing up blood. My Parents
drove me to the larger Hospital(didn't trust the country one)an hr. away. I was
extremely thirsty, crawled over the bed railing and my Mom to get to the closest
water, at which point I collapsed on the floor.

I woke up once in a darkened room with a small light overhead to hear
someone say to my Parents, an apology, they did everything they could, but I
wasn't going to make it, then I passed out. I woke up 3 days later from
my coma to everyones' surprise and joy. I guess it wasn't my time. That's
the short amount of time it took for me to almost die. I would've been a goner if
it was not for the 2 Doctors and Nurses quality help and vigilant care. Sorry this is
so long. :)

[sydneya]

In the couple of years before insulin was discovered, children could live as long as 18-24 months after dignoisis, and a few lived much longer. As a child, I spoke to one of these survivors once, and was amazed at how they did it. They were basically put on starvation diets, and some doctors even gave them small amounts of alcohol, for even then they realized that alcohol prevented the basal release of glucose from the liver, and so allowed blood sugar levels to lower. These children were starved to emaciation, but might live a couple of years.

Michael

What a cost for life. I love living in this day and age when we have insuline, etc. Interesting info.

[DesertDiabetic]

This is a very real problem for type 1's. It can happen at any time, more today than every before. Katrina, terrorists attack(real or not), our society is on edge. I think we assume that insulin is always close, ambulances, hospital, fellow diabetics in cases like we think might happen. With katrina there were no ambulances, a hospital flooded(though they might have still helped with insulin,I don't know).

Didn't your doctor or diabetic educator train you on what to do if you could not get insulin? You might only have to go two or three days without insulin. Have you really thought it out? As bad as people think about Bernstein he did go into that in his phone call last month. Does your doctor tell you such things. I cannot imagine a type 1 that has not ask the question.

[Erin]

Just something to think about. I always carry my insulin and test kit with me, which was really lucky one Tuesday morning in September about 5 years ago. Of course, I only had one bottle of lantus and one pen of humalog with me, but it was enough to get me through the day and back to my parents house in NJ without getting sick. (I guess I could have gone into any pharmacy and pled my case, but as I remember it a lot of businesses closed that day... and the Hospitals were kind of... busy) I ended up having to beg the pharmacist in my parents town and my insurance company to give me another refill, cause I couldn't get home for almost a month.

I encourage EVERYONE to keep a couple of bottles of test strips, a few syringes, and a bottle of each kind of insulin you take, at a friend or relatives house outside of your geographic area. You will be glad you did if disaster strikes. I keep everything at my parents' now, and another set at my Uncle's, I change the insulin every time I get a refill so it doesn't go bad, but it is worth the inconvenience.

I have in the past forgotten to take my lantus or accidentally left my humalog at home. I have made it through these days by eating only no-carb foods and drinking lots of water. I think we could get through a couple of days if push came to shove and there was enough water available.

[piney]

This is a very thought-provoking thread, opening my and probably many others' eyes with a bit of a jolt :eek:

[Mick]

I used to think about not being able to get insulin all the time, when I was a kid during the Cold War. I never think about it any more, but back in the 60's I sure did. When the USSR was our enemy, I would have fantasies of them bombing our insulin factories to kill us poor diabetic children. Not that I even know what an "insulin factory" was--I had no idea, but I imagined they would be somewhere around the stockyards, as they would depend on an endless supply of fresh pork and cow pancreases. During the Cold War, there was a constant air of paranoia like that, so I did ask what to do, just in case. I was told not to worry about it. I did anyway...

Michael

[DesertDiabetic]

Mick, you make a good point - the cold war, I forgot the fears we lived with. Today we are in a hot war....

[Pitzi]

What an interesting thread!
I survived for almost a year after my diagnosis, just on diet and lots of exercise, simply because the idiotic doctors here couldn't get my diabetes under control with insulin, and told me the only way to cure this would be with diet and exercise :(

I used to weigh 74kg just before my diagnosis. When I was finally taken to a specialist in Italy, I weighed 57kg. I don't even wanna remember what I looked like, a 1.8m robust built man weighing 57kg. Now there is the reason behind my hatered for the local doctors.

Anyways, say one didnt eat for 2 days because you were deprived of Insulin by a disaster, would my blood sugar still skyrocket?

[DeusXM]

You could probably go for a few days...actually, you could probably go for a few weeks before DKA got you. DKA doesn't make you instantly pass out and die - it takes a while before the acidity of your blood becomes dangerous enough for you to die. If you kept yourself sufficiently hydrated you could probably delay or offset the osmotic effect DKA has on your blood but obviously the acidity level is something you can't really compensate for.

Granted, you would feel horrific for those few weeks but it's not a case that if you don't take your insulin one day you'll be dead the next.

[amccrazgrl]

a little off topic but
my moms bf believes in natural cures for diabetes/etc b/c back a long time ago they didn't have diabetes and other things like cancer.
so i was starting to think then how was diabetes discovered or how did it evolve.

[Lynne1]

a little off topic but
my moms bf believes in natural cures for diabetes/etc b/c back a long time ago they didn't have diabetes and other things like cancer.
so i was starting to think then how was diabetes discovered or how did it evolve.
Of course they did.

[DeusXM]

Diabetes has been known of since at least the Ancient Greeks - the technical term for the condition is Diabetes Mellitus, or 'sugary fountain' in ancient Greek. There's also evidence to suggest that the ancient Egyptians were also familiar with the condition too.

In fact, it's one of the easiest conditions to diagnose with primitive medicine - if your urine is sweet, then you're diabetic. You could either find this out by tasting your own urine (yummy!) or peeing on the ground near some ants. If your urine has a high sugar content, then the ants will start congregating around the puddle.

The ancient Greeks knew about this and it's fair to assume that if they saw someone losing weight who was tired and had sweet urine, they would be able to identify what the person had, although they wouldn't have understood what caused the problem. That wasn't until 1922 when insulin was discovered and the exact science of diabetes was sketched out.

As for natural remedies....sorry, but forget it. With T1 you've actually got a bit of your pancreas missing. Much as no amount of magical herbs will make an amputated leg grow back, you ain't gonna see the islet cells magically reappear. You may also want to tell your mother's bf that every disease apart from AIDS has existed long before the modern era - it's just that in those times people either died before they developed the condition or they didn't have the sufficent technology to know what the condition was. People in history have died from all sorts of cancers and heart disease and diabetes and any other disease or medical complaint you'd care to name - it's just that if you've never seen a myocardial infarction before, it's rather hard to diagnose other than 'he just dropped dead in front of me'.

[Lynne1]

a little off topic but
my moms bf believes in natural cures for diabetes/etc b/c back a long time ago they didn't have diabetes and other things like cancer.
so i was starting to think then how was diabetes discovered or how did it evolve.
Does it annoy you when he says that? My brother in law is really into 'spirituality' and read a book that said that all diseases are caused by stress. Give me a #$@% break. Typical of someone who has never suffered from a cronic disease.

[amccrazgrl]

Does it annoy you when he says that? My brother in law is really into 'spirituality' and read a book that said that all diseases are caused by stress. Give me a #$@% break. Typical of someone who has never suffered from a cronic disease.

Yes it does. Mom says he doesn't mean cure but you can get a handle on it.
Hello thats what isulin does and exercising and not over eating carbs.

[rzrbks]

amccrazgrl

a little off topic but
my moms bf believes in natural cures for diabetes/etc b/c back a long time ago they didn't have diabetes and other things like cancer.

What an ignorant______________!!!(fill in the blank with the word or phrase of your choice)

Of course they had those diseases, people just dies of them faster because it was "God's Mysterious Will."

Wasn't God's Will, it was human ignorance and stupidity--kinda like this Bozo

[camjen1]

DKA doesn't make you instantly pass out and die - it takes a while before the acidity of your blood becomes dangerous enough for you to die.

DKA lowers the Ph of your blood. Any alteration even the slightest in Ph can be deadly. Thats why usually the first test they do on a diabetic presenting with possible DKA is a blood gas that will show the Ph of the blood.

[rzrbks]

Thats why usually the first test they do on a diabetic presenting with possible DKA is a blood gas

So, we should stay away from beans and foods that cause "Reactions?"

[poodlebone]

The one day my pumps infusion set failed I was sent into DKA in a matter of hours and I probably would have been dead by the end of the night if I didn't seek medical attention. Of course all of us T1 used to go without insulin before diagnosis. Now I can't go a couple hours and I'm sicker then a dog.

I've been pumping for a year now and I test frequently so I usually catch a bad set within 2 hours at the most. With a bad set, I've gone over 400 in just a couple of hours. If I was lax in testing, maybe waiting 4 or 5 hours, I would have been in serious trouble.

I was diagnosed at the very end of April 1987, but I had been feeling bad for a month or so before that. At first I was just very tired, had trouble focusing & concentrating in school. Then came the drinking & peeing, but I didn't notice it at first. By the week before diagnosis I had a 2 quart container of drink with me at all times and I was sleeping in the bathroom, because I was too weak to go back & forth from my bedroom. I was in DKA when I finally saw a doctor and he sent me to the ER, but I had gone for more than a month without outside insulin. Of course my own pancreas was still making a little. My honeymoon only lasted a couple of months so I guess most of my beta cells were already gone.

[poodlebone]

I encourage EVERYONE to keep a couple of bottles of test strips, a few syringes, and a bottle of each kind of insulin you take, at a friend or relatives house outside of your geographic area. You will be glad you did if disaster strikes. I keep everything at my parents' now, and another set at my Uncle's, I change the insulin every time I get a refill so it doesn't go bad, but it is worth the inconvenience.

In my bag, I always have a plastic container that holds: my current vial of Humalog, two infusion sets, one reservoir, a couple of syringes and vials of test strips. When I take the last vial out of that container I open a new box and put the 4 vials in. At work I have a box with more sets, reservoirs, syringes etc. I don't leave insulin at work because we have a teeny tiny cube fridge and the temperature can swing from just somewhat chilly to freezing everything inside. A full vial of Humalog lasts me more than a month and I do put a new one into my little kit after I've filled my third reservoir from it. Each reservoir holds 300 units, so that leaves 100 units in the vial after 3 fills.

None of my family lives close enough for me to leave insulin. My mother lives in PA right now and I do think there's a Humalog pen in her fridge but it's probably expired by now. If I absolutely had to, I could use Regular in my pump.

[camjen1]

I've been pumping for a year now and I test frequently so I usually catch a bad set within 2 hours at the most. With a bad set, I've gone over 400 in just a couple of hours. If I was lax in testing, maybe waiting 4 or 5 hours, I would have been in serious trouble.

I was diagnosed at the very end of April 1987, but I had been feeling bad for a month or so before that. At first I was just very tired, had trouble focusing & concentrating in school. Then came the drinking & peeing, but I didn't notice it at first. By the week before diagnosis I had a 2 quart container of drink with me at all times and I was sleeping in the bathroom, because I was too weak to go back & forth from my bedroom. I was in DKA when I finally saw a doctor and he sent me to the ER, but I had gone for more than a month without outside insulin. Of course my own pancreas was still making a little. My honeymoon only lasted a couple of months so I guess most of my beta cells were already gone.

I will admit that going into DKA was partially my fault for lack of testing but the infusion set had a role in it to. This was when MM just produced Quickset Plus that were eventually recalled. Before I knew it I was in way over my head. I was vomiting then I would gulp down a whole cup of water, then I would vomit again and I kept repeating this. Symptoms started to appear in early afternoon and by early evening I was in the ER and then transported to ICU. The odd thing about the situation is after 1 1/2 days on MDI the DR said go ahead and try to connect to the pump and we will monitor you. Well, after about 2 hours I was feeling sick again and vomiting. Come to find out I was sky high again.

There is no doubt in my mind that I wouldn't last long without insulin. After that situation with DKA I freak everytime I think I'm going to be witout insulin. Such as a couple of times I had disconnected from the pump to shower but had totally forgot to reconnect before leaving the house. Also I have to admit that I have forgotten once or twice about my low insulin alarm. Mine rings at 30u, 20u and 10u. After it's empty it takes a good 2-3 hours for it to warn it's empty.

[poodlebone]

I will admit that going into DKA was partially my fault for lack of testing but the infusion set had a role in it to. This was when MM just produced Quickset Plus that were eventually recalled. Before I knew it I was in way over my head. I was vomiting then I would gulp down a whole cup of water, then I would vomit again and I kept repeating this. Symptoms started to appear in early afternoon and by early evening I was in the ER and then transported to ICU. The odd thing about the situation is after 1 1/2 days on MDI the DR said go ahead and try to connect to the pump and we will monitor you. Well, after about 2 hours I was feeling sick again and vomiting. Come to find out I was sky high again.

There is no doubt in my mind that I wouldn't last long without insulin. After that situation with DKA I freak everytime I think I'm going to be witout insulin. Such as a couple of times I had disconnected from the pump to shower but had totally forgot to reconnect before leaving the house. Also I have to admit that I have forgotten once or twice about my low insulin alarm. Mine rings at 30u, 20u and 10u. After it's empty it takes a good 2-3 hours for it to warn it's empty.

My problems with infusions sets were using the Quick-Sets. Not sure how they differ from the QS PLus you were using. One day I had to insert 5 times before I got one that worked. I then switched to the Silhouettes and have had only one bent cannula and it was due to my poor insertion technique.

One time when I first started pumping I left the house without my pump. I had to go to a friend's apartment a few blocks away to feed his cats. I was getting ready to leave his place to catch my bus to work and checked his kitchen clock. It seemed wrong so I went to get my pump to see what it said (I don't wear a watch) and it wasn't there!! I ran back home for it and ran all the way to catch my bus, in the nick of time. I was 227 by the time I got to work, I think. I had only been disconnected for about 75 minutes but I think the stress & running back and forth drove my BG higher.

One other time I walked out the door without my pump but realized it right away and went right back in to get it. Now I suspend my pump when I shower, because it will beep periodically while suspended.

[DeusXM]

DKA lowers the Ph of your blood. Any alteration even the slightest in Ph can be deadly.

If that were true then you'd die the moment you drank some orange juice or the moment you injected some Lantus. Your body is capable of operating within acceptable limits, even if it's not particularly efficient operating. DKA usually needs a few days or so before it really starts to overwhelm your body (usually - I'm aware that there are members here who've developed in over a couple of hours and ended up in serious trouble).

Obviously alterning the pH of your blood significantly is deadly but it's not a case of when your body drops a pH point, you drop dead. It's a gradual process as the acid corrodes your body.

[camjen1]

Obviously alterning the pH of your blood significantly is deadly but it's not a case of when your body drops a pH point, you drop dead. It's a gradual process as the acid corrodes your body.

I agree that you just don't drop dead but the range for a normal pH is not like other #'s. The range is 7.350 - 7.450 and any number below the norm or above the norm you are going to feel sick. Heck, I have been dealing with lots of levels which are way below the normal range but I don't feel the effects compared to when the pH is dropped. The minute my pH drops even a point under the norm then I'm sick.

[Erin]

If that were true then you'd die the moment you drank some orange juice or the moment you injected some Lantus.

You are correct, but your examples are kind of off.

I don't think you would die if you injected orange juice into your blood stream (although I wouldn't want to try it) but that would be the only way oj could change your blood ph. The worst thing drinking it can do is make your stomach more acidic than normal and give you heartburn.

And do you honestly think injecting a few iu's of lantus changes the ph of your whole body? sure it messes the ph at the injection site a bit, that's why it stings, but thinking it effects your blood ph is like thinking dumping a tablespoon of salt in to the ocean is going to (measurably) effect the salinity of the water.

[Funnygrl]

If that were true then you'd die the moment you drank some orange juice or the moment you injected some Lantus. Your body is capable of operating within acceptable limits, even if it's not particularly efficient operating. DKA usually needs a few days or so before it really starts to overwhelm your body (usually - I'm aware that there are members here who've developed in over a couple of hours and ended up in serious trouble).

Obviously alterning the pH of your blood significantly is deadly but it's not a case of when your body drops a pH point, you drop dead. It's a gradual process as the acid corrodes your body.
Orange juice goes in your stomach, lantus in a fatty layer. Your body pH has about a .5 range it can be in before you die, and that is it. I believe any blood pH below 7.3 or above 7.7 is incompatable with life. I'd have to check my pathophysiology notes, but it is something like that.

There are two types of adidosis- repiratory and metobolic. Respiratory comes from not breathing well enough. DKA is the metobolic type. Either type is deadly if let go more than a little while.


Obviously alterning the pH of your blood significantly is deadly but it's not a case of when your body drops a pH point, you drop dead. It's a gradual process as the acid corrodes your body.

Actually, it is very much so the case.

[camjen1]

Orange juice goes in your stomach, lantus in a fatty layer. Your body pH has about a .5 range it can be in before you die, and that is it. I believe any blood pH below 7.3 or above 7.7 is incompatable with life.

Actually, I was a 7.04 upon arrival in the ER with a glucose of 428. It took less than 12 hours to get my level that low. That's why I stated I think I would have been dead before the night ended if I didn't seek medical treatment. My pH didn't stabilize until after 4 days in ICU.

Now if it came to a disaster in my area where everything was wiped out I would have to rely on what insulin was in my pump already and after that is drained then well you can bet I will be a goner within 24 hours.:afraid:

[DeusXM]

And do you honestly think injecting a few iu's of lantus changes the ph of your whole body? sure it messes the ph at the injection site a bit, that's why it stings, but thinking it effects your blood ph is like thinking dumping a tablespoon of salt in to the ocean is going to (measurably) effect the salinity of the water.

If you can provide another reason why Lantus seems to cause allergic reactions in people which result in raised body temperature and perspiration (classic symptoms of sped-up metabolic processes as a result of increased acidity), then I'm all ears.

[Erin]

If you can provide another reason why Lantus seems to cause allergic reactions in people which result in raised body temperature and perspiration (classic symptoms of sped-up metabolic processes as a result of increased acidity), then I'm all ears.

You said it yourself allergic reactions. Allergies of any sort toss your body out of whack. It is specific people's body chemistry responding to the Lantus causing the problems... not the Lantus itself, otherwise EVERYBODY would have those reactions.

[Funnygrl]

Actually, I was a 7.04 upon arrival in the ER with a glucose of 428. It took less than 12 hours to get my level that low. That's why I stated I think I would have been dead before the night ended if I didn't seek medical treatment. My pH didn't stabilize until after 4 days in ICU.

Now if it came to a disaster in my area where everything was wiped out I would have to rely on what insulin was in my pump already and after that is drained then well you can bet I will be a goner within 24 hours.:afraid:
Ok, my range must be wrong. I will look it up later today when I study for my patho exam.

[DeusXM]

It is specific people's body chemistry responding to the Lantus causing the problems... not the Lantus itself, otherwise EVERYBODY would have those reactions.

Fair point.

[camjen1]

Ok, my range must be wrong. I will look it up later today when I study for my patho exam.

No, funnygrl your ranges are correct it's just I really was sick and you would think anyone with a level of pH that low would be dead. Some others who have had levels that low may not have been as lucky as I was.

[mids1999]

I have a friend who was diagnosed as type 1 that gave up on caring for himself and went 8+ years without a single insulin injection.

He is very thin and constantly complains about being sick but he keeps on going insisting that he could not be type 1. He says that he doesnt think he would be alive if he was type 1.

He says that the only reason he was diagnosed as type 1 was because of his age at dx 15. He was dxed in 1989.

I recently forced him to check his bsl and it was 380.

Anyone have any comments about how he is still alive if he is type 1?

Figured I would post here cause this thread is about how long someone could go without insulin

[Simon]

There are cases of LADA where the pancreas regenerates as fast as it is destroyed by the antibodies. Normally these cases are non-diabetic but I suppose your friend might just be able to regenerate enough to keep going. He could also me MODY but without proper testing there's no way to know.

[dws]

Dehydration will screw up all the bld chemistries.
don