[Harold]

Originally Posted by Schlep

I don't think anyone can be quick to judge unless they have tried something and it did not work. To spend $10.00 on a supplement to see if it works and the claims are true or false is something after getting as much information as I can I think myself and others have the right to do.

My goodness what happens if something actually works will you continue to deny it or wait for the FDA to okay it in 10 years?

They okayed saccharin and what happened there? And what about thalidomide?

Supplements are by the the name a supplement to meds, diet, and exercise. They are not a substitute for meds, diet, and exercise. People desperately in denial will latch on to supplements as cures. When you have watched someone waste away taking supplements instead of their meds and skipping meals because they did not have enough money left for food you will understand the hostility some have for supplements.

When people come in claiming they have been taking a supplement and stopped taking their meds because they have great numbers good for them. However not knowing if they have been a type 2 or type 1.5 or any other of the many factors that go into the making of diabetes, can we take it with anything other than a grain of salt? I want to know all of the particulars and want to hear how they are doing in 5, 10, and 15 years before I waste my time and health. IMHO anything else smells of desperately seeking a cure. Just my opinion.

[Schlep]

Originally Posted by Harold

Supplements are by the the name a supplement to meds, diet, and exercise. They are not a substitute for meds, diet, and exercise. People desperately in denial will latch on to supplements as cures. When you have watched someone waste away taking supplements instead of their meds and skipping meals because they did not have enough money left for food you will understand the hostility some have for supplements.

When people come in claiming they have been taking a supplement and stopped taking their meds because they have great numbers good for them. However not knowing if they have been a type 2 or type 1.5 or any other of the many factors that go into the making of diabetes, can we take it with anything other than a grain of salt? I want to know all of the particulars and want to hear how they are doing in 5, 10, and 15 years before I waste my time and health. IMHO anything else smells of desperately seeking a cure. Just my opinion.

Supplements are natural and where do you think 90 % of the drugs we take today originated? With natural supplements.

No one has been advised to quit their medication, no one has been advised to quit eating because they are taking supplements.

If people are doing that then they are sick and need strong medication.

I admit it is hard to believe only one post, but that is why I asked for more information and I don't feel it is the right for others to come on and condemn my request for information with their biased opinions about a product they know nothing about.

If you had a mechanic that tried to fix your car but had never been under the hood of a car would you trust him?

[notme]

I don't think anyone intends to say that suppliments aren't worth investigating. However, care needs to be taken when adding suppliments while you are taking medications or forgoing medication entirely and only taking a suppliment. Women who are pregnant or nursing should be especially cautious about using herbal supplements or any type of dietary supplement that contains herbs, either alone or in mixtures since these products can act like drugs. This caution also applies to treating children with herbal supplements. Just because something is marked as "natural" doesn't make it safe.

Nobody is condemning anyone for posting their personal experience using a suppliment. What is questionable is a first time post that reads like an advertisement. I think your question was definitely worth asking and I want to hear responses. We do have a policy on diabetes forums about advertising and it needs to be remembered by all of us who post. Almost daily we get people who sign on to DF and try to sell their products. Most are deleted before anyone has to be bothered with them. A few slip through.

There have been snake oil salesmen since time began. If we lifted the rule about advertising, you would not be able to read your daily posts without having to sift through a million sales presentations and some of them would be dangerous.

Please try and lighten up a bit Schlep. There has to be a voice of reason on DF that weeds through all of the advertisting posts. I am not saying our new poster is an advertiser however we get some sneaky advertisers here. Nobody would like to see anyone hurt by a product that wasn't well tested and known safe. Certainly Tony would not want anyone injured.

Name of natural supplement and
(Also known as),
Dangers and
Regulatory actions

DEFINITELY HAZARDOUS
Documented organ failure and known carcinogenic properties
Aristolochic acid(Aristolochia, birthwort, snakeroot, snakeweed, sangree root, sangrel, serpentary, serpentaria; asarum canadense, wild ginger). Can be an ingredient in Chinese herbal products labeled fang ji, mu tong, ma dou ling, and mu xiang. Can be an unlabeled substitute for other herbs, including akebia, asarum, clematis, cocculus, stephania, and vladimiria species.


Potenthuman carcinogen; kidney failure, sometimes requiring transplant; deaths reported.
FDAwarning to consumers and industry and import alert, in April 2001. Banned in 7 European countries and Egypt, Japan, and Venezuela.



VERY LIKELY HAZARDOUS
Banned in other countries, FDA warning, or adverse effects in studies

Comfrey (Symphytumofficinale, *** ear, black root, blackwort, bruisewort, consolidae radix, consound, gum plant, healing herb, knitback, knitbone, salsify, slippery root, symphytum radix, wallwort)


Abnormalliver function or damage, often irreversible; deaths reported.
FDAadvised industry to remove from market in July 2001.

Androstenedione
(4-androstene-3, 17-dione, andro, androstene)
Increased cancer risk, decrease in HDL cholesterol.
FDAwarned 23 companies to stop manufacturing, marketing, and distributing in March 2004. Banned by athletic associations.



Chaparral(Larrea divaricata, creosote bush, greasewood, hediondilla, jarilla, larreastat)
Abnormalliver function or damage, often irreversible; deaths reported.
FDAwarning to consumers in December 1992.

Germander(Teucrium chamaedrys, wall germander, wild germander)
Abnormalliver function or damage, often irreversible; deaths reported.


Bannedin France and Germany.

Kava (Pipermethysticum, ava, awa, gea, gi, intoxicating pepper, kao, kavain, kawa-pfeffer, kew, long pepper, malohu, maluk, meruk, milik, rauschpfeffer, sakau, tonga, wurzelstock, yagona, yangona)


Abnormalliver function or damage, occasionally irreversible; deaths reported.
FDAwarning to consumers in March 2002. Banned in Canada, Germany, Singapore, South Africa, and Switzerland.

LIKELY HAZARDOUS Adverse-event reports or theoretical risks
Bitter orange(Citrus aurantium, green orange, kijitsu, neroli oil, Seville orange, shangzhou zhiqiao, sour orange, zhi oiao, zhi xhi)


Highblood pressure; increased risk of heart arrythmias, heart attack, stroke.


None

Organ/glandular extracts(brain/adrenal/pituitary/
placenta/other gland “substance” or “concentrate”)
Theoretical risk of mad cow disease, particularly from brain extracts.
FDAbanned high-risk bovine materials from older cows in foods and supplements in January 2004. (High-risk parts from cows under 30 months still permitted.) Banned in France and Switzerland.



Lobelia(Lobelia inflata, asthma weed, bladderpod, emetic herb, gagroot, lobelie, indian tobacco, pukeweed, vomit wort, wild tobacco)
Breathing difficulty, rapid heartbeat, low blood pressure, diarrhea, dizziness, tremors; possible deaths reported.


Bannedin Bangladesh and Italy.

Pennyroyaloil(Hedeoma pulegioides, lurk-in-the-ditch, mosquito plant, piliolerial, pudding grass, pulegium, run-by-the-ground, squaw balm, squawmint, stinking balm, tickweed)
Liverand kidney failure, nerve damage, convulsions, abdominal tenderness, burning of the throat; deaths reported.


None

Scullcap(Scutellaria lateriflora, blue pimpernel, helmet flower, hoodwort, mad weed, mad-dog herb, mad-dog weed, quaker bonnet, scutelluria, skullcap)


Abnormalliver function or damage.
None

Yohimbe (Pausinystalia yohimbe, johimbi, yohimbehe, yohimbine)
Changein blood pressure, heart arrythmias, respiratory depression, heart attack; deaths reported.


None

According to product labels.
Sources: Natural Medicines Comprehensive Database 2004 and Consumers Union's medical and research consultants.

[REDLAN]

nice list of stuff not to take....

I googled the ingredients for the vitabase blood formula.

it contains amongst other things...

1) bitter melon. There is some (limited) evidence that it may lower blood sugar. However all the studies I found listed are from either rat or mice studies. There are some abstracts about it's use in humans but no clinical data to back it up.

2) gymnema sylvestra - this is my favourite. This stuff is used in Ayurveda (traditional Indian medicine). It is claimed to block sugar - what it actually does is to change the taste of sugar for a short period, and so discourage the taker from eating sugar.

3) Guggul - I found 1 whole clinical trial for this one - Guggul is supposed to lower cholesterol (it does not have any claimed effect on blood sugars). In the clinical trial guggul actually managed to raise LDL cholesterol by a modest amount, and 6 of the subjects suffered a hypersensitivity rash from taking guggul (about 10% of the participants).

so...

you can take a supplement that lowers blood sugars in rodents, makes sugar taste a bit funny for a while, which may raise your cholesterol by a small amount, and possibly give you a rash.

it will however most definitely relieve you of your cash.

[Schlep]

Originally Posted by notme

I don't think anyone intends to say that suppliments aren't worth investigating. However, care needs to be taken when adding suppliments while you are taking medications or forgoing medication entirely and only taking a suppliment. Women who are pregnant or nursing should be especially cautious about using herbal supplements or any type of dietary supplement that contains herbs, either alone or in mixtures since these products can act like drugs. This caution also applies to treating children with herbal supplements. Just because something is marked as "natural" doesn't make it safe.

Nobody is condemning anyone for posting their personal experience using a suppliment. What is questionable is a first time post that reads like an advertisement. I think your question was definitely worth asking and I want to hear responses. We do have a policy on diabetes forums about advertising and it needs to be remembered by all of us who post. Almost daily we get people who sign on to DF and try to sell their products. Most are deleted before anyone has to be bothered with them. A few slip through.

There have been snake oil salesmen since time began. If we lifted the rule about advertising, you would not be able to read your daily posts without having to sift through a million sales presentations and some of them would be dangerous.

Please try and lighten up a bit Schlep. There has to be a voice of reason on DF that weeds through all of the advertisting posts. I am not saying our new poster is an advertiser however we get some sneaky advertisers here. Nobody would like to see anyone hurt by a product that wasn't well tested and known safe. Certainly Tony would not want anyone injured.

Name of natural supplement and
(Also known as),
Dangers and
Regulatory actions

DEFINITELY HAZARDOUS
Documented organ failure and known carcinogenic properties
Aristolochic acid(Aristolochia, birthwort, snakeroot, snakeweed, sangree root, sangrel, serpentary, serpentaria; asarum canadense, wild ginger). Can be an ingredient in Chinese herbal products labeled fang ji, mu tong, ma dou ling, and mu xiang. Can be an unlabeled substitute for other herbs, including akebia, asarum, clematis, cocculus, stephania, and vladimiria species.


Potenthuman carcinogen; kidney failure, sometimes requiring transplant; deaths reported.
FDAwarning to consumers and industry and import alert, in April 2001. Banned in 7 European countries and Egypt, Japan, and Venezuela.



VERY LIKELY HAZARDOUS
Banned in other countries, FDA warning, or adverse effects in studies

Comfrey (Symphytumofficinale, *** ear, black root, blackwort, bruisewort, consolidae radix, consound, gum plant, healing herb, knitback, knitbone, salsify, slippery root, symphytum radix, wallwort)


Abnormalliver function or damage, often irreversible; deaths reported.
FDAadvised industry to remove from market in July 2001.

Androstenedione
(4-androstene-3, 17-dione, andro, androstene)
Increased cancer risk, decrease in HDL cholesterol.
FDAwarned 23 companies to stop manufacturing, marketing, and distributing in March 2004. Banned by athletic associations.



Chaparral(Larrea divaricata, creosote bush, greasewood, hediondilla, jarilla, larreastat)
Abnormalliver function or damage, often irreversible; deaths reported.
FDAwarning to consumers in December 1992.

Germander(Teucrium chamaedrys, wall germander, wild germander)
Abnormalliver function or damage, often irreversible; deaths reported.


Bannedin France and Germany.

Kava (Pipermethysticum, ava, awa, gea, gi, intoxicating pepper, kao, kavain, kawa-pfeffer, kew, long pepper, malohu, maluk, meruk, milik, rauschpfeffer, sakau, tonga, wurzelstock, yagona, yangona)


Abnormalliver function or damage, occasionally irreversible; deaths reported.
FDAwarning to consumers in March 2002. Banned in Canada, Germany, Singapore, South Africa, and Switzerland.

LIKELY HAZARDOUS Adverse-event reports or theoretical risks
Bitter orange(Citrus aurantium, green orange, kijitsu, neroli oil, Seville orange, shangzhou zhiqiao, sour orange, zhi oiao, zhi xhi)


Highblood pressure; increased risk of heart arrythmias, heart attack, stroke.


None

Organ/glandular extracts(brain/adrenal/pituitary/
placenta/other gland “substance” or “concentrate”)
Theoretical risk of mad cow disease, particularly from brain extracts.
FDAbanned high-risk bovine materials from older cows in foods and supplements in January 2004. (High-risk parts from cows under 30 months still permitted.) Banned in France and Switzerland.



Lobelia(Lobelia inflata, asthma weed, bladderpod, emetic herb, gagroot, lobelie, indian tobacco, pukeweed, vomit wort, wild tobacco)
Breathing difficulty, rapid heartbeat, low blood pressure, diarrhea, dizziness, tremors; possible deaths reported.


Bannedin Bangladesh and Italy.

Pennyroyaloil(Hedeoma pulegioides, lurk-in-the-ditch, mosquito plant, piliolerial, pudding grass, pulegium, run-by-the-ground, squaw balm, squawmint, stinking balm, tickweed)
Liverand kidney failure, nerve damage, convulsions, abdominal tenderness, burning of the throat; deaths reported.


None

Scullcap(Scutellaria lateriflora, blue pimpernel, helmet flower, hoodwort, mad weed, mad-dog herb, mad-dog weed, quaker bonnet, scutelluria, skullcap)


Abnormalliver function or damage.
None

Yohimbe (Pausinystalia yohimbe, johimbi, yohimbehe, yohimbine)
Changein blood pressure, heart arrythmias, respiratory depression, heart attack; deaths reported.


None

According to product labels.
Sources: Natural Medicines Comprehensive Database 2004 and Consumers Union's medical and research consultants.

Wow how you have taken my posts and original thread out of context and added so much to a simple request for people to tell of their experience with a certain product.

I watch on this site many times and see people giving medical advise to others without knowing who they are or about the other drugs they are on.

But yet a simple request About peoples own experience draws the anger of mods and others just for asking for peoples opinions.

Yes I agree (as I said before) that the person who gave raving reviews on Vitabase only had one post, does that mean they are not telling the truth. According to you yes it does and again I do not know the answer but I certaninly can go through 100's of posts on this board where people are left to make their own decisions.

Again who said to stop taking your medication not me all I asked for was personal experiences. You do not seem to want to let people post that.

If you think that the person who wrote About their personal experience on Vitabase was someone doing an advertisement then please delete the post.

Why are people who reccomend medications to others without medical knowledge allowed to post what they want with no control.

Again if you feel someone advertised in my thread then delete the post.

Perhaps the poster should be contacted rather than triing to prove them wrong without knowing anyone who has taken the product.

Please take the time to research the positive as well as the negative before posting. Again all I wanted to know was if anyone had used the product as it seemed like a simple question.

[Schlep]

Deleted........

[Schlep]

Originally Posted by REDLAN

nice list of stuff not to take....

I googled the ingredients for the vitabase blood formula.

it contains amongst other things...

1) bitter melon. There is some (limited) evidence that it may lower blood sugar. However all the studies I found listed are from either rat or mice studies. There are some abstracts about it's use in humans but no clinical data to back it up.

2) gymnema sylvestra - this is my favourite. This stuff is used in Ayurveda (traditional Indian medicine). It is claimed to block sugar - what it actually does is to change the taste of sugar for a short period, and so discourage the taker from eating sugar.

3) Guggul - I found 1 whole clinical trial for this one - Guggul is supposed to lower cholesterol (it does not have any claimed effect on blood sugars). In the clinical trial guggul actually managed to raise LDL cholesterol by a modest amount, and 6 of the subjects suffered a hypersensitivity rash from taking guggul (about 10% of the participants).

so...

you can take a supplement that lowers blood sugars in rodents, makes sugar taste a bit funny for a while, which may raise your cholesterol by a small amount, and possibly give you a rash.

it will however most definitely relieve you of your cash.

Would you like to see the reports on nutri sweet? Why do people get upset because others do not have the same opinion as themselves?

You can find anything you want on the net to prove for or against a product that is why I asked for personal experiences.

I ended up with poisoning from nutra sweet but that is okay the FDA approved it.

[notme]

Schlep, nobody is angered by your post. Nobody was upset at you for asking. The original post was perfectly fine.

Supplements can be dangerous, but they can also be helpful to some. What worries people are claims of miraculous cures and the ability to abandon insulin from a poster that has never been here or even told us what type diabetes they have. It screams of advertisement.

There are no mods or anyone else as far as I know that are angry. There are a few that are concerned about the claims made about this amazing supplement that all but cures diabetes. If you look at the thread you just posted, it is a question about what supplement people take. Nobody made any miraculous claims and most people just answered the question about what they were taking and why.

[wiseguy]

Schlep, you're fighting a losing battle. The majority of people actually believe that the FDA is protecting them and that any substance that has not been FDA approved must be snake oil. The fact that FDA approved substances have ended up killing many thousands of people doesn't seem to matter. Anyone who doesn't see that the FDA is heavily influenced buy big business has their head in the sand.

What you hear over and over again is that this and that supplement has not been proven to work. They never will be if we leave it up to the medical establishment. They are the ones who fund all the research and they are not going to spend any money researching something that they can't patent. Where's the profit in that?

If you search enough you will find evidence that some supplements actually do help with BG levels. The only "proof" will be your own, and others, experiences. But don't expect many people to believe you.

[Schlep]

Originally Posted by wiseguy

Schlep, you're fighting a losing battle. The majority of people actually believe that the FDA is protecting them and that any substance that has not been FDA approved must be snake oil. The fact that FDA approved substances have ended up killing many thousands of people doesn't seem to matter. Anyone who doesn't see that the FDA is heavily influenced buy big business has their head in the sand.

What you hear over and over again is that this and that supplement has not been proven to work. They never will be if we leave it up to the medical establishment. They are the ones who fund all the research and they are not going to spend any money researching something that they can't patent. Where's the profit in that?

If you search enough you will find evidence that some supplements actually do help with BG levels. The only "proof" will be your own, and others, experiences. But don't expect many people to believe you.

Thank you well said.

Approved drugs that kill, worth reading.

PRESCRIPTION DRUGS THAT KILL: ANOTHER KIND OF DRUG PROBLEM

Have you ever listened to the drug commercials on TV and the side effects and yet some do not even tell you what they are for.

[wiseguy]

Originally Posted by Schlep

Thank you well said.

Approved drugs that kill, worth reading.

PRESCRIPTION DRUGS THAT KILL: ANOTHER KIND OF DRUG PROBLEM

Have you ever listened to the drug commercials on TV and the side effects and yet some do not even tell you what they are for.

I always get a chuckle from those drug commercials. The possible side effects are always much worse than the condition the drugs are meant to treat. And isn't it amazing how some people will ardently point out the dangers of natural supplements while readily consuming synthetic concoctions that are far more likely to harm them.

[Alice]

Since a few of you are advocates for supplements, thought I'd ask this question...always wondered and have seen some consumer shows investigate this:

How do you know what you are really getting in those supplements? I don't mean this in a accusatory fashion, but how do you feel confident you are getting fresh, natural ingredients? And the same ingredients that they are marketing?

I guess that's the regulation I'm worried about. Just curious and open to your opinions.

[Schlep]

Originally Posted by Alice

Since a few of you are advocates for supplements, thought I'd ask this question...always wondered and have seen some consumer shows investigate this:

How do you know what you are really getting in those supplements? I don't mean this in a accusatory fashion, but how do you feel confident you are getting fresh, natural ingredients? And the same ingredients that they are marketing?

I guess that's the regulation I'm worried about. Just curious and open to your opinions.

Nothing is perfect but I have noticed that all supplements list their ingredients in the order of the amount in the product.

I do not say that all supplements are good and true, but are all drugs?

I have never seen a prescription medicine list any ingredients on the bottle.

[Alice]

No, but they are regulated and tested with rigorous standards. Yes, some are recalled, but that's a good thing in the long-run. As you say, nothing is perfect.

[AliB]

Someone asked if anyone had tried Vitabase. I did not have to respond but I wanted to supply an answer to the question with an honest appraisal of the product from my own experience.

I only came across it myself because someone had mentioned Diabeticine and when I was researching that Vitabase came up as a similar but cheaper product. Well I am always for cheaper as long as it works. I would have been glad to have had more feedback than I could find, but I thought, what the heck, it's cheap enough, if it works I am on to a winner, if not, it won't bankrupt me. So I did. Now I am giving you the benefit of the fact that I was prepared to take the risk and try it.

So I am new to this forum. Everyone has to start somewhere. I would not have found it at all except that I was mooching through the internet to see if there was any other more recent mention of Vitabase and picked up this thread. There are so many sites linked to Diabetes that it is impossible to find them all or post on them all and quite frankly I don't have the time to do that. I may be new on this one, but I am 'old' on others.

Too many people are quick to give their opinion on things they have never tried. Well I am not one of them. This is my honest opinion and it is up to you whether you choose to believe it or not. At the end of the day, it's $12 a bottle. What's to lose?

I am not selling anything. I am not giving anything other than my opinion and my experience. I am not connected with the company (although the way things are going with it I might just consider buying some shares!!!). It helped me and I am delighted myself to hear from others who have tried it. I have had a few positive comments from others on my own blog on another site which is encouraging and some of my internet friends have also tried it and benefitted. The more that try it, the more feedback there is, good or bad, which is very helpful. How will we ever know if something works unless others tell us about it? My doctor told me about Byetta, and that it had some good results. How I wish I had heard of the Vitabase first. I would not have ended up being his guinea pig on that awful drug that has left me with dreadful stomach problems and has now also been found to cause Pancreatitis. And they have the cheek to condemn natural remedies.

I never claimed it to be a miracle cure, or that I could do away with the insulin or metformin I have to take, even if it might be possible. It has done what the drugs haven't and lowered my blood sugar to normal. Can't I indulge in a little smugness at having found it and some generosity of spirit in wanting to share my discovery of this useful item that might just benefit others ????