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Is there a link to Insulin and Vivid/Lucid Dreams or OBEs?

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#1
alex200274

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I wanted to know if there were anyone who has had excessive Vivid/Lucid Dreams or even Out of Body Experiences (OBEs) and think there could be a link to their dreams being induced by taking insulin?

I know the subject on these dream states can be viewed as somewhat sceptical. None the less I have lucid dreams almost every night. Some of these dreams will develop into what is commonly referred to as an OBE (consciously awakening while fully asleep and exploring the real world environment around you).

I was wondering if there was a side effect to insulin that made me more prone to having lucid dreams and acting as a front door to the OBE.

#2
Subby

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Nope, I don't think so. I do think that lows can tend to cause disturbed sleep and feverish dreams, I have seen that time and again. But I haven't seen (or heard of) a link with lucid dreaming. I have lucid dreamt once or twice in my life. Strange experience. I have even had what I suspect was a bit of an OBE, although I really hesitate to use that term. But I don't think insulin has anything to do with it. Why would it? We all have insulin inside us. It's just that some of us inject it instead of produce it.
20 years T1. NPH and Novorapid.
Some essentials for my blood sugar control: dosing via i:c ratio and cf • basal testing when needed • daily 40 minutes moderate exercise (or close) • carbs somewhere below 120g currently • only eating carbs and carb/fat combos that do not cause a problem spike, with or without insulin.

#3
foxl

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Interesting question, Alex ... I posted a couple weeks ago about increased dreaming since starting insulin ... without hypos. Nobody else made this observation, though, and I googled a bit -- nothing clear on it.

Insulin DEFINITELY affects the hypothalamus, though so it is quite plausible the effect I am observing is real. My dreaming seems to have settled down after 5.5 weeks on it, though.
Linda


[B]Jan A1c 6.3/B]
Jul 09 ... C-pep 1.3, GAD-65 > 30
Mar 10 C-pep 2.8 (20 g carb); GAD 3.2
dx 02/09 in DKA


Levemir 12U per day; novolog PRN TDD ca 16U
MetforminXR 1000 mg BID
Ramipril 5 mg
T4 112 mcg
Chia oil
Vitamin D3, 4000 IU
Eating 20 - 45 g carb per day ovo-lacto-vegetarian
Walking 30 min 6x week

#4
DeusXM

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I don't think it'd be the simple presence of insulin as has already been pointed out, insulin would be in you whether or not you had diabetes.

If there is anything in it, then it would be down to an additive in the insulin - possible, but seems rather unlikely - or as a result of an abnormal blood sugar reading. Many people who have 'nypos' will recall having vivid dreams. In fact I've even had vivid dreams that specifically involve me eating or trying to find sugar and then I've woken up to find that, unsurprisingly, I'm running low.

Lucid dreaming is something that is reasonably well recognised and there is a school of thought that suggests you can train yourself to dream lucidly - another possibility is that after having a couple of lucid dreams, your brain has got comfortable with the idea of letting you participate more actively. But I'd still check your BG every time you wake up after one of these experiences to see if there's any patterns.

#5
Delphinus

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Interesting question, Alex ... I posted a couple weeks ago about increased dreaming since starting insulin ... without hypos. Nobody else made this observation, though, and I googled a bit -- nothing clear on it.

Insulin DEFINITELY affects the hypothalamus, though so it is quite plausible the effect I am observing is real. My dreaming seems to have settled down after 5.5 weeks on it, though.


I think I made a post about this, or something very similar, but I forget what I titled it.

I know how to lucid dream.... Anyway, when I am experiencing hypos I have the most vivid and bizarre dreams, that seem like lucid dreams.

The thing is, I often experience these dreams, very often actually, and when I wake, and test to be safe, I am normally in a safe range.

I also have frequent allergic reactions to insulin.

But as Deux mentioned, if anything weird is going on, it would be the additive. Where he mentioned lucid dreams, and if you have the ability, this may happen more when using synthetic insulins. I dunno.

I often lucid dream. I trained myself to do it, I even help others out with tips on how to, etc. It's great for story ideas, and odd one liners. :D
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

Type1 diabetic. Son of a Type1 diabetic. Father to a Type1 diabetic.

+++ Jason

#6
jenb

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I have always had very vivid dreams and that did not change when I started my "hormone replacement therapy" with insulin:T . Still vivid, still frequent, and still wonderful.

Jen

#7
alex200274

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When waking from any dream or experience I always test my sugars, in fact during the experience I'm aware of my diabetes and get concerned if my sugars are ok which often makes the dream experience end sooner than planned.

If my sugars are low or high the dream is not as intelligent, but if low I do not remember much (typical fantasy type dream) and if high I usually have typical nightmares/sleep disturbance.

I have always been curious if maybe the insulin (perhaps certain types) has some chemical effect on the brain causing one to be more prone to a vivid/lucid dream. Maybe the insulin absorbtion spikes, or there is a mix with glucose causing an effect while sleeping.

I'm sure I have read some studies on the linkage to insulin and the sleeping state (was trying to find a link to post to support my question).

When I'm talking about an insulin link, I'm referring to man made and not naturally produced as none type 1's.

#8
foxl

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Please, share any links you find! Almost everything is the reverse -- sleep quality affecting IR ...
Linda


[B]Jan A1c 6.3/B]
Jul 09 ... C-pep 1.3, GAD-65 > 30
Mar 10 C-pep 2.8 (20 g carb); GAD 3.2
dx 02/09 in DKA


Levemir 12U per day; novolog PRN TDD ca 16U
MetforminXR 1000 mg BID
Ramipril 5 mg
T4 112 mcg
Chia oil
Vitamin D3, 4000 IU
Eating 20 - 45 g carb per day ovo-lacto-vegetarian
Walking 30 min 6x week

#9
DanG

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I don't think it'd be the simple presence of insulin as has already been pointed out, insulin would be in you whether or not you had diabetes.


This statement is not entirely true.
For non-diabetics, insulin passes from the islets, through the liver and then to the circulatory system (that has been explained here elsewhere, I believe - correct me if need be, thanks). Whereas with diabetes, we inject insulin to fatty tissue, which then enters the circulatory system - an entirely different delivery mechanism.
Hence, it is seemingly plausible that the excess of insulin could arguably create some very weird experiences (lucid, OBE). Whether or not lucid / OBE is a learned experience or not - that is another argument. My point being that insulin in the body of a diabetic is entirely different than insulin in a non-diabetic. The delivery mechanism is completely different and much more complex. Our technology of delivering insulin to diabetics is all we have - after 85 years of development? - sad, indeed, especially with technology being touted as the god of all things modern.

#10
DeusXM

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This statement is not entirely true.


Actually you'll find it's entirely true - non-Ds will always have a small amount of insulin in their bloodstream. It doesn't make any difference HOW the insulin gets there. Nothing special happens to insulin when it goes through subcutaneous fat rather than the method you suggest and in any case, the only thing linking the islets, liver and fat to the brain is the circulatory system. So the difference in delivery mechanism becomes irrelevant as the end result is exactly the same.

Simply put, I can either put a letter in the postbox and let the postal service process it and deliver it, or I can go over to your house and put the letter through your door myself. The delivery process doesn't change the actual content of the letter.

#11
DanG

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Simply put, I can either put a letter in the postbox and let the postal service process it and deliver it, or I can go over to your house and put the letter through your door myself. The delivery process doesn't change the actual content of the letter.


Putting the letter in my hand is different than having the postal service deliver, as the postal service marks its receipt and cancels the postage stamp.
Not unlike the insulin that passes from the islets, through the liver - it is not the same insulin processed by the islets as it is processed through the liver. Plus, its delivery through the liver is a system not matched by delivery via fatty tissue, which requires some ancillary heat related mechanisms to activate the time release of the the insulin. It seems that tech could potentially better serve insulin via some direct input through the islets and then the liver - letting the body process it - but what do I know - they have probably found that is not tenable as a delivery system.
Indeed, the insulin ends up in the circulatory system - but the difference between makes a huge difference in viability and effectiveness. We waste more insulin than what we use - what is it? - maybe 20% of what we inject becomes useable? the rest is eliminated.

#12
genie86333

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Interesting question, Alex ... I posted a couple weeks ago about increased dreaming since starting insulin ... without hypos. Nobody else made this observation, though, and I googled a bit -- nothing clear on it.


Interesting question...and I must have missed your post, Linda, as we both started insulin about the same time & I would have responded.

I also have experienced an increase in dreams (or at least have remembered more of them since normally I only remember them if I wake up during one, so I only remember a dream usually once every few years...now I'm remembering the dreams or at least remember dreaming & the feelings associated with them) I've been having some really wierd dreams - probably 4 or so in the few weeks...one was even kinda nightmarish & I've NEVER had a nightmare before at least that I remembered when I woke up. I hadn't put together the connection with the insulin, but yeah, they started about the same time as I started insulin.

Oh, and I haven't had any hypos either, so it's not that.

#13
alex200274

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Well I have been having vivid dreams almost every night for the last six months. The dreams are extremely detailed and busy – meaning sometimes the content wakes me up.* The dreams will often transgress into waking dreams or moving into the area of OBE’s (Out of Body Experiences). Basically you are fully awake in the room for which you are sleeping in and able to see your body in the bed asleep, and move around the house, or travel even further.

I have been a member few the last year to the Astra Pulse forum which is dedicated to Astral travel, Dreams, OBE’s etc. On the forum I have tried to search to see if there are diabetics and wondering if there is a link to the insulin and maybe some side effect that can induce or create opportunity for someone that might be prone to having vivid dreams, OBEs Astral Travel etc.

I know the subject is somewhat speculative but irrespective if you believe in OBE’s or Astral Travel the initial problem for me started (and still continues) with having vivid dreams. I read somewhere that human insulin or synthetic insulin had some side effects such as sometimes inducing vivid dreams.

I do not think its problem directly related to either low or high sugars. I will often check my sugars upon waking from dreams always assuming that maybe the cause. For me dreams that I class as being intelligent and consciously driven requires my sugar levels to be between 5 mmol/l -9 mmol/l. Anything lower or higher I have found cause the dream to be more fantasy driven and less consciously controlled.

My first experience happened in 1997, and was baffled by the dreams that were taking place. They have happened ever since but maybe 75% of the week having vivid dreams, and then once or twice a month having OBEs. As you can imagine it creates a very busy lifestyle when you’re asleep in contrast to when you’re awake!

I do not think its stress related, diet, or even environment. I feel that some of us or just more open to these opportunities than others. But I do believe that maybe insulin is creating some of that opportunity.

When I was investigating this back in 1999 I remember reading an article on the net about dream studies in the 1970’s and how insulin was injected into patients to induce certain type of dream states. Since this post I have been Googling for information but can’t find that particular article.

There seems to be some studies about insulin being injected into rats and studying their activities while asleep. Also noting that slow wave sleep or non-rem sleep was developing – try Googling Insulin and Slow Wave Sleep Rat Study. However these articles were on medical journal sites that you have to subscribe to read anything further so I didn’t bother.

I want to try and investigate some further avenues such as the British Diabetic Association or even maybe some Universities that might be looking into sleep research.

I’m sure insulin is triggering a chemical reaction in the brain, or spiking at various points in the sleeping state that can cause this reaction. The main reason is I have no idea why I should be having them so regularly despite what I do during my waking hours.

#14
jenb

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I wonder if successfully lowering blood sugar allows for deeper sleep and more dreaming.

Jen

#15
alex200274

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I guess maybe if your starving the brain of sugar it will have an impact on your dreams but I have found the dreams become less intelligent, or the low suagrs causes it to wake me up.

#16
aiah23

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[quote name='alex200274']Well I have been having vivid dreams almost every night for the last six months. The dreams are extremely detailed and busy – meaning sometimes the content wakes me up.* The dreams will often transgress into waking dreams or moving into the area of OBE’s (Out of Body Experiences). Basically you are fully awake in the room for which you are sleeping in and able to see your body in the bed asleep, and move around the house, or travel even further.

I do not think its stress related, diet, or even environment. I feel that some of us or just more open to these opportunities than others. But I do believe that maybe insulin is creating some of that opportunity.

I want to try and investigate some further avenues such as the British Diabetic Association or even maybe some Universities that might be looking into sleep research.

QUOTE]

If you can afford the copays, I'd recommend having a few sleep studies done (you'd need to find a sleep specialist to have one or more of these). There's plenty of brain activity going on at various points of sleep, non-REM, etc and it could have more to do with that. I don't know nearly enough on the subject, but if you know any sleep techs, they may be able to offer you some insight as well!

Fawn

#17
foxl

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Try googling insulin effects on brain -- it has some very definite effects, they are just hard to find because of the reverse relationship.
Linda


[B]Jan A1c 6.3/B]
Jul 09 ... C-pep 1.3, GAD-65 > 30
Mar 10 C-pep 2.8 (20 g carb); GAD 3.2
dx 02/09 in DKA


Levemir 12U per day; novolog PRN TDD ca 16U
MetforminXR 1000 mg BID
Ramipril 5 mg
T4 112 mcg
Chia oil
Vitamin D3, 4000 IU
Eating 20 - 45 g carb per day ovo-lacto-vegetarian
Walking 30 min 6x week




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