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Insulin, how much does a non diabetic use?

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#1
klpants

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Howdy!

I've always been a bit curious about this and thought hey I'll make a post! I'm a genius! :smartass:

With my routine I am trying to inject as little amounts of insulin as possible to try and control my weight but have good blood sugars also (I'm into fitness and competing). But, how much insulin does someone without diabetes use to maintain their ideal weight?

For example, if I eat a chocolate bar I usually would have to give myself two or three extra units of Humalog to keep my BS levels stable (all depending on how much exercise I've done and other food I've eaten) So if a non diabetic eats a chocloate bar how much insulin does their pancreas send out?

Anyone else thought about this? (yes, I know bit hard to measure on a non diabetic.)
Any insights?

#2
duck

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When I was a teen I called the ADA about this, and they said that "normal" people use the same amounts of insulin as we do, in proportion of course to what they are eating (if they eat nothing they'll use less insulin than if they eat three Cheesecake buffets).

Now that I think about it, I would also think that there is a wide variance between each individual and how much insulin they need to control their sugars, just like you and I and everyone else here seems to have varying carb ratios and basal needs.

Off-topic: What kind of competition? Fitness competition? If so, let me encourage you to partake in the "Names with faces" thread... :biggrin:

(hee hee, okay, I'll stop)
Look what you've done to this rock-n-roll clown!

#3
klpants

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Hmm? If a "normal person" uses the same amount of insulin then why does it seem most type 1's struggle with their weight, just my observation........

yes Fitness comps, I'd like to get into them more when I move back to Canada, not much of an industry over here. Oh, aern't you the cheeky one! "names with faces"

#4
mark-TN

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The insulin that we inject is the exact same protein that the body produces (it is identical to human insulin). The only difference is that it has been diluted 25x, so 1 unit of injected insulin is 1/25 the strength of 1 unit of indigenous insulin.

When insulin is injected 100% does not make it into the bloodstream. There are a lot a variables that determine how much makes it to the bloodstream(IE Size of dose, area of injection, viability of injection site, depth of injection, state of hydration, current health status, to name a few)

The half life of insulin that makes it to the blood stream is only 6-1/2 minutes. That means if you injected 10 units directly into a vein in 6-1/2 minutes only 5 units will remain, after another 6-1/2 minutes only 2-1/2 units will remain and so on. Of the amount of insulin that gets into the bloodstream, weather injected or produced by the pancreas, only about 10% of this gets bound to insulin receptors. The remainder is gobbled up by antibodies or is cleared from the bloodstream by the liver.

The body of a non-diabetic typically will release more insulin than is needed to cover a glucose load. The body just can not accurately estimate exactly how much to release to cover a given amount of food that is eaten. The body uses other hormones to fine tune any bolus release of insulin. These hormones are glucagon and amilyn. The glucagon fine tunes the insulin and the amilyn fine tunes the glucagon to keep blood sugars within a narrow range.

Mark
Type 1 since 9/1974. On MDI: Lantus in am and pm, Novolin R at meals, Novolog for corrections. Following Dr. Richard Bernstein's program since May 2003.

Web based BG Log (Google Spreadsheets-Requires Google Account to view and to save a copy for use):
mg/dl version / mmol version /// My Diabetes Story - Sign My Guestbook

#5
duck

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The insulin that we inject is the exact same protein that the body produces (it is identical to human insulin). The only difference is that it has been diluted 25x, so 1 unit of injected insulin is 1/25 the strength of 1 unit of indigenous insulin.

When insulin is injected 100% does not make it into the bloodstream. There are a lot a variables that determine how much makes it to the bloodstream(IE Size of dose, area of injection, viability of injection site, depth of injection, state of hydration, current health status, to name a few)

The half life of insulin that makes it to the blood stream is only 6-1/2 minutes. That means if you injected 10 units directly into a vein in 6-1/2 minutes only 5 units will remain, after another 6-1/2 minutes only 2-1/2 units will remain and so on. Of the amount of insulin that gets into the bloodstream, weather injected or produced by the pancreas, only about 10% of this gets bound to insulin receptors. The remainder is gobbled up by antibodies or is cleared from the bloodstream by the liver.

The body of a non-diabetic typically will release more insulin than is needed to cover a glucose load. The body just can not accurately estimate exactly how much to release to cover a given amount of food that is eaten. The body uses other hormones to fine tune any bolus release of insulin. These hormones are glucagon and amilyn. The glucagon fine tunes the insulin and the amilyn fine tunes the glucagon to keep blood sugars within a narrow range.

Mark


I forgot about the amilyn bit...Are you taking that yet, BTW? (I have to stop being off-topic).

#6
duck

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yes Fitness comps, I'd like to get into them more when I move back to Canada, not much of an industry over here. Oh, aern't you the cheeky one! "names with faces"


"cheeky one" There's a new one for me, LOL. :thrasher:

#7
mark-TN

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I forgot about the amilyn bit...Are you taking that yet, BTW? (I have to stop being off-topic).


Duck-

I don’t have a need to go on Symilin (which is an analog of the hormone amylin). I believe this drug will be beneficial to many people, especially those struggling to loss weight and/or maintain post prandial blood sugars. The diet I am on takes care of both. Also the use of Symilin requires a meal of at least 30g of carbohydrate. None of my meals during the day comes close to that amount of carbohydrate. Belinda has had tremendous success with Symilin. I think you should give it a try if you feel it can help.

Mark
Type 1 since 9/1974. On MDI: Lantus in am and pm, Novolin R at meals, Novolog for corrections. Following Dr. Richard Bernstein's program since May 2003.

Web based BG Log (Google Spreadsheets-Requires Google Account to view and to save a copy for use):
mg/dl version / mmol version /// My Diabetes Story - Sign My Guestbook

#8
DeusXM

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If a "normal person" uses the same amount of insulin then why does it seem most type 1's struggle with their weight, just my observation........



It's to do with how the insulin enters the system, and also the way many people with diabetes use insulin.

In a non-diabetic, the pancreas constantly releases small amounts of insulin throughout the day, and responds to rises in bg caused by eating by increasing the amount of insulin produced. This is mimiced by the pump and MDI. However, the body of a non-diabetic is perfectly designed to judge exactly how much insulin is really needed. Sadly, we don't really have that luxery, and so there's a tendancy amongst most people with T1 to take slightly too much insulin, which means you end up eating more than you really need just to offset the bg drop, which can result in weight gain.

This problem is amplified by older isophane insulins, which have an artificial peak action period which will need food to compensate for it. Lantus to some extent alleviates this and doesn't really have a peak as such but it still is not a perfect match with insulin production in a non-diabetic.

Then there is the other overwhelming problem that for years most people with T1 have been advised to eat large amounts of carbohydrates, and this advice seems to refuse to die. Most in the medical business seem to prioritise avoiding low blood sugar over a sensible diet, which beggars belief since it is possible to eat far less and still avoid hypos.
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#9
klpants

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DeuxM, Mark-TN

Some good points raised, I knew this wasn't a straight forward answer, but then dealing with diabetes never is!!!
Very hard to measure exactly how much insulin a non diabetic produces through out the day........no way (I can think of) to measure it??

Thanks for the reponces!



It's to do with how the insulin enters the system, and also the way many people with diabetes use insulin.

In a non-diabetic, the pancreas constantly releases small amounts of insulin throughout the day, and responds to rises in bg caused by eating by increasing the amount of insulin produced. This is mimiced by the pump and MDI. However, the body of a non-diabetic is perfectly designed to judge exactly how much insulin is really needed. Sadly, we don't really have that luxery, and so there's a tendancy amongst most people with T1 to take slightly too much insulin, which means you end up eating more than you really need just to offset the bg drop, which can result in weight gain.

This problem is amplified by older isophane insulins, which have an artificial peak action period which will need food to compensate for it. Lantus to some extent alleviates this and doesn't really have a peak as such but it still is not a perfect match with insulin production in a non-diabetic.

Then there is the other overwhelming problem that for years most people with T1 have been advised to eat large amounts of carbohydrates, and this advice seems to refuse to die. Most in the medical business seem to prioritise avoiding low blood sugar over a sensible diet, which beggars belief since it is possible to eat far less and still avoid hypos.



#10
Harold

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So if a non diabetic eats a chocloate bar how much insulin does their pancreas send out?

The :smartass: answer would be whatever it takes to keep bg's in control. :D The amount of insulin produced by non-diabetics varies a lot. Some of the morbidly obese, that do not have diabetes, produce has much as 8 times what would be considered normal. So the real answer is whatever it takes, otherwise they would be diabetics with type 2. Somewhere somebody must have done some testing and come up with a normal amount value. However with the advent of CGMS they have been trying to figure out what's normal for the last several years. :vroam:

#11
klpants

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yep, so many factors to consider, I met a type 1 once who was obese, she takes probably 120 units of insulin more than me, so I'm sure there are non diabetics who vary greatly as well, ok not sure 100% positive!




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