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#1
Pete DeFinis

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Since Iv'e gone Keto and drastically cut back carbs, my blood sugar has been awesome, but I'm concerned about the increase in saturated fats that comes naturally with the increased fat intake. 80-90% of my fats ingested are unsaturated, but as hard as I try the saturated fats still sneak in. I'm only concerned about this because if my LDL's are even a touch high he tries to shove stat=ins down my throat which I would like to avoid. Any suggestion on how much I should be taking in? I've been between 23 and 30 g per day. I was down at 15 previously.
-Pete

Type II
DX 10-30-2011 A1C:12.2
Trig:unreadable, HDL:37 LDL:184
Weight 260 BF:26%

7-2013
Trig: 105, HDL 84, LDL:99
Weight 197, BF 13.4%
A1C: 6.0

#2
GAgirl

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I wondered the very same thing, but no way will I take a statin. I believe people lived long lives in the past, like our parents and grandparents without it and they had horrible diets (grandparents) as they ate lots of fattening things, lard, butter, sugar, greasy things, etc.
From what I've read and from what it did to the gastrointestinal system of my hubby and the muscles of my father, I say NO. They stopped and they have high Cholesterol. I so far do not, but like you I am wondering if this will now change with a Ketogenic LCD.

On the Bloodsugar 101 site they mention in the updated section that when you first start a LCD in 3 months the cholesterol reading will go up, but in the 6 month testing it should go back down and stay down after that...so I read. We'll see as I am only 4 days into this myself. This why I shared your concern.

                                                        

Type 2 

(Dx'd 6/24/13...6.8 A1-C / fbg 130)

Current A1c- 5.9 / fbg- 109

2 Metformin 500mgs-1@ breakfast / 1@ supper 

smileys-food-and-drinks-601144.gif LCHF preferred

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


#3
Pete DeFinis

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That' what I'm afraid of. I did similar diet lat year and had the same result. High cholesterol and the statins down the throat, never mind that statins can make diabetes worse. But the next visit I was fine. Sound like we need senior member
advice (hint hint....)
-Pete

Type II
DX 10-30-2011 A1C:12.2
Trig:unreadable, HDL:37 LDL:184
Weight 260 BF:26%

7-2013
Trig: 105, HDL 84, LDL:99
Weight 197, BF 13.4%
A1C: 6.0

#4
GAgirl

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Yes, I agree...Maybe they will post tomorrow.

                                                        

Type 2 

(Dx'd 6/24/13...6.8 A1-C / fbg 130)

Current A1c- 5.9 / fbg- 109

2 Metformin 500mgs-1@ breakfast / 1@ supper 

smileys-food-and-drinks-601144.gif LCHF preferred

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


#5
rubidoux

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Well... where to begin... when I was eating the standard american diet, my blood lipids were okay, though my doctor thought my LDL was a little too high. I think it was something like this:

LDL 99
HDL 65
trigs 57

Then about three months after I started LCHF, it got worse:

LDL 134
HDL 40
trigs 87 (this was not fasting, so the trigs are not significantly different than the earlier ones)

Three months later:

LDL 99
HDL 48
trigs -- can't remember but they were fine

Three months after that (last week):

LDL 128
HDL 57
trigs 85

I am pretty sure that the reason my numbers got worse in the second set was because I was actively burning fat and losing weight pretty rapidly, so there was lots of fat floating around in my blood. The third set was done when I had been on a bit of a carb bender for the previous two days. I'm sure that I wasn't in ketosis or burning any fat. Then, the most recent set was back in ketosis and actively losing. I have now lost about 60 pounds and I've got another 25 or so to go. I am curious to see what happens when I stop losing. I have a feeling that my numbers will get a lot better and stay that way.

I can't say that I've been terribly comfortable with my lipid numbers getting worse, but I do think it is much better to have these lipid numbers than to have the blood sugar numbers I was having before LCHF. I don't think my LDL has been horribly high, but I was pretty shocked at how low the HDL got. But I would never have considered statins at those numbers even though my doctor was really pushing them.

Regardless of what the numbers say, I can just feel that my body is better off for eating this way.

Jayne

Dx'd 4/14/93
Currently 44 years old
Omnipod and humalog
LCHF and intermittent fasting (usually one meal/day)
losing weight! 214/128/130ish


#6
Hooterville

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Hi blood sugar raises cholesterol. Bring down the blood sugar and the cholesterol will follow. Cholesterol in the diet does not translate to cholesterol in the arteries. Keep your fats natural. Avoid hydrogenated and partially hydrogenated oils. Stay away from highly processed oils such as soy, canola, seed oils. Stick with olive oil, coconut oil, butter, cream, fat from fish, fish oil, avocados, nuts, fats from meats.

Do not just look at your total cholesterol and LDL. Look at your HDL. Get the HDL high. You can look beyond your total LDL number and see what the particle size is. You want large, fluffy LDL particles. These particles do not embed in the arteries and clog them. They pass through harmlessly. It's the small, dense LDL particles that cause damage and lead to artery disease.

Another book recommend. "The Great Cholesterol Myth" by Sinatra and....Bowden, I think. Awesome book and it's a cholesterol book that I was able to understand and it didn't make my head hurt.

If you are worried, request an NMR Lipid profile that will show your particle size among other things.

A1c's: 1/11 9.4 ~ 3/11 7.9 ~ 6/11 7.8 ~ 7/11 7.6 ~ 10/11 7.5 ~ 12/11 6.4 ~ 3/12 5.9 ~ 6/12 5.4 ~ 9/12 5.4 ~ 12/12 5.3 ~ 3/13 5.1 ~ 8/13 5.5 ~ 10/13 5.4
Meds: 30 units Lantus - 2,550 mg Metformin
Diet: LCHF ketogenic, 30 to 40 carbs, dabbling in Paleo
Exercise: Lifting, walking, stair climbing
Weight Loss: 100.5 Pounds

She turned her can'ts in to cans and her dreams in to plans.

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#7
GAgirl

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Hooterville-
Thanks so much for the suggested reading and this explanation! Makes total sense. I stay away from all soy, as there is breast cancer in my family, since it produces estrogen. I appreciate your input!

                                                        

Type 2 

(Dx'd 6/24/13...6.8 A1-C / fbg 130)

Current A1c- 5.9 / fbg- 109

2 Metformin 500mgs-1@ breakfast / 1@ supper 

smileys-food-and-drinks-601144.gif LCHF preferred

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


#8
Ela

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Well, I guess it's different for everybody. However on this forum MANY people were able to get their cholesterol in shape when their BG got in shape.

Personally though, I have good ratio and very high HDL (this time it's 92 and 3 month ago it was 105) but my LDL is also high- 168. What was horribly bad before I started my lchf diet was Triglycerides (around 300 with a norm limit of 150) and they became normal almost instantly as I started low carb diet and are normal since then (69 last test). I don't worry too much about my cholesterol. I just don't subscribe to the theory that it's most important thing for the healthy heart.

"In some ways, being a well-controlled diabetic is an ongoing science experiment" Scratch

Diagnosed 4/11 A1C=10.8
6/11 A1C = 7.8
8/11 A1C = 5.7
11/11 A1C=6.1
1/12 A1C = 6.2
5/12 A1C = 5.9 Finally!
8/12 A1C = 6.1 for NO REASON
12/12 A1C=5.5
4/13 A1C = 5.4
7/13 A1C = 5.8
2/14 A1C = 5.8

8/14 A1C = 5.6 Yay! Finally as expected!

2/15 A1C = 5.6

8/15 A1C = 5.6

4/16 A1C = 5.6

9/16 A1C = 5.5
LCHF diet. Metformin 500X2, Ramipril 2.5, Magnesium Citrate, Chromium Picolinate, Milk Thistle.


#9
ShottleBop

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This is one man's story:

I was first diagnosed as pre-diabetic, in February, 2008 (A1c of 6.5; successive FBGs of 127 and 123). On January 28, my lipids were:

TC: 281
LDL (direct) 215
HDL: 40
Trig: 142

A week later (my doctor wanted a retest, because my FBG had been 127), my TC and LDL were both nearly 12% lower than that baseline:

TC: 248
LDL (direct): 190
HDL: 40
Trig: 148

Because my FBG that second time, at 123, was below 126, I was diagnosed as pre-diabetic. I was prescribed a meter, and attended a single pre-diabetes class, which addressed basic nutrition using the food pyramid approach. My doctor, however, had also told me that I would have to cut out fruits and other things that raised my BGs. I ate to my meter, but didn't count carbs or cut out bread--I mostly cut out desserts, most fruits, and white bread, and experimented with wholegrain and Ezekiel breads. I also restricted my fat intake. I lost 30 pounds.

By May, 2008, my A1c was 6.0, and my lipids were:

TC: 221 (down 21%)
LDL (direct): 155 (down 28%)
HDL: 41
Trig: 71

It was in May (following a Passover during which I ate virtually no grain, and realized the difference that made in my BGs) that I discovered Gretchen Becker, Richard Bernstein, and Blood Sugar 101, and started restricting carbs more. I stopped restricting fat intake. From May to August, 2008, I lost another 20 pounds, my A1c dropped to 5.5, and my LDL climbed back from 155 to 194:

TC: 269
LDL (Direct): 194
HDL: 48
Trig: 77

Between August and November, I lost another 15 pounds (total weight loss: 65 pounds, from 220 to 155, on a 6-foot frame). My total cholesterol soared 100 points:

TC: 369
LDL (Calculated): 287
HDL: 65
Trig: 85

In March, 2009, my A1c was 5.3, but I didn't have another lipid panel until September, 2009 (A1c 5.4):

TC: 337
LDL (Direct): 219 (essentially, back to baseline)
HDL: 79
Trig: 41

March 11, 2010:

TC: 357 (up 20)
LDL: 231 (up 12)
HDL: 95 (up 16)
Trig: 44 (up 3)

I continued to resist my doctor's recommendations that I take statins: I'd read Dr. Graveline's book, Lipitor, Thief of Memory, and several of the "Cholesterol Myth" books; I'd studied the UCSD Statin Effects Study's website; I'd seen how statins had caused my wife severe muscle pain and left her materially weaker than she had been, even years after stopping them.

For the better part of a year and a half--from late 2009 to late 2011, I ran average monthly BGs of less than 100 (and for much of that time, 90 or less). I had been climbing 24 flights of stairs 4-5 days a week, and regularly riding a stationary bike for 25-30 minutes. In July of 2011, I started experiencing some tightness in my chest around the 18th-20th floor, and after 10-15 minutes on the bike. I had an NMR test run in September, 2011:

TC: 373
LDL: 282
HDL: 82 (large: diameter 14.2, 39.1 nmol/L)
Trig: 47

More than 92% of my LDL was pattern B (large, fluffy): diameter 22.1 nm; 1793 nmolL
My small LDL particle count was only 146 nmol/L

Then, a stress-echocardiogram revealed that I had some arterial blockage. In December, 2011, I went in for an angiogram, and they discovered that one of my coronary arteries was 90% blocked. They inserted a stent. Still, I resisted taking statins--I was too scared of cognitive side effects, and I make my living with my head. (My doctor would not discuss low-dose statins, as suggested by Dr. Graveline, insisting that I take 80 mg of Lipitor daily. I could not bring myself to do it.
I got laid off at the end of 2011. In August, 2012, I started a new job, and began coverage with a new HMO (Kaiser Permanente). In September, I had another lipid panel done:

TC: 381
LDL (Calculated): 290
HDL: 78
Trig: 63

My new PCP wanted me on statins, too--80 mg of Lipitor. I resisted. I decided to talk to a cardiologist, and my new one was willing to negotiate: per Dr. Graveline's recommendation, I asked for a low dose of a hydrophilic statin (less likely to cross the blood-brain barrier), and started 10 mg. of pravastatin daily. Then, in December, 2012:

TC: 331
LDL (Calculated): 239
HDL: 82
Trig: 51

At that point, I agreed to try 20 mg of pravastatin a day. Within a couple of weeks, however, I started waking up with pains in the backs of my thighs every morning. I went back to 10 mg. In April of this year, my lipids were:

TC: 312
LDL (Calculated): 214
HDL: 87
Trig: 57

My PCP wanted me to take a higher dose of a stronger statin. Based on my experience with having gone from 10 mg to 20 mg of pravastatin, however, I refused. Then, last week, I had another blood test:

TC: 301
LDL (Calculated): 215
HDL: 78
Trig: 40

I got another call from an assistant to my PCP: she wanted me on 40 mg. Lipitor. I decided that she wasn't going to leave me alone until I'd at least tried a different statin (she appeared to be unswayed by my experience of going from 10 mg pravastatin to 20 mg), and I picked up the prescription. (Didn't tell her that I had no intention of going from 10 mg of pravastatin to 40 mg of Lipitor--the equivalent of 160 mg of pravastatin; rather, I'd cut the pills, and start at 10 mg of Lipitor, the equivalent of 40 mg of pravastatin; I'd hope that Lipitor wouldn't affect me in the same way as the stronger dose of pravastatin.) This past Monday, I started the Lipitor. I've climbed 21 flights of stairs a couple of times this week, and walked for 1 1/2 miles another day; I'll be watching things closely.

******************

Moral of the story, folks: LCHF doesn't always improve LDL (although my reading suggests that it DOES improve LDL for about 2/3 of the folks who try it). And I don't blame LCHF for my artery blockage; I blame 7 months of a very stressful work environment during the first part of 2011. (A year after my surgery, I had a follow-up stress echocardiogram that showed no evidence of blockage. I agreed to start the pravastatin because everything I've read--even by Dr. Graveline and by the folks at UCSD--concludes that, for middle-aged men with confirmed artery disease, the benefits of statins appear to outweigh the risks, and because my cardiologist was willing to let me take a low dose. I am not going to stop my exercising, though, and I will stop the statins if I feel that they are slowing me down.)
Functionally, a Type 2 (missed the label by th-a-a-a-a-t much)
Dx prediabetic 02/08 (FBG 127 and 123), A1c 6.5
So far, controlled without meds.

#10
rubidoux

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ShottleBop, It sure sounds like your lipids have put you through the ringer. I'm happy there're no further blockages and hoping the statins only do good things.

I'm wondering if the thing about getting your blood sugar under control and having your lipids follow is more true for type II's than type I's since we don't tend to have the syndrome X problems like type II's do. I don't feel like my lipids are following, but I haven't given it a lot of time yet.

Jayne

Dx'd 4/14/93
Currently 44 years old
Omnipod and humalog
LCHF and intermittent fasting (usually one meal/day)
losing weight! 214/128/130ish


#11
Hooterville

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I can't believe I typed, "Hi blood sugar" up there. oy. :(

A1c's: 1/11 9.4 ~ 3/11 7.9 ~ 6/11 7.8 ~ 7/11 7.6 ~ 10/11 7.5 ~ 12/11 6.4 ~ 3/12 5.9 ~ 6/12 5.4 ~ 9/12 5.4 ~ 12/12 5.3 ~ 3/13 5.1 ~ 8/13 5.5 ~ 10/13 5.4
Meds: 30 units Lantus - 2,550 mg Metformin
Diet: LCHF ketogenic, 30 to 40 carbs, dabbling in Paleo
Exercise: Lifting, walking, stair climbing
Weight Loss: 100.5 Pounds

She turned her can'ts in to cans and her dreams in to plans.

Posted Image

#12
xMenace

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Here are my numbers since 2008. Note that my current LDL is LOWER than when doc had me on simvastatin. I refuse to take it. My new endo asked me to last appointment, and I said "I'd rather drop dead from a heart attack than waste away legless and eyeless on a dialysis table." He said "fair enough and didn't blink.
Attached File  2013.jpg   81.23KB   85 downloads
  • Note that the dates are not linear so the graph is skewed.
  • Note the ratios and compare to your own research.
  • It seems that first TGs and then LDL might be the drivers of HDL. HDL seems to be last in line for resources. It changes as the other elements change.
  • I do not have a valid beginning, unstatinized lipid profile. I keep forgetting to ask for one.
  • One can easily see how studies might demonize saturated fat. Initially total cholesterol rises and LDL rises. But my data suggests you need to perform longer termed studies, at least three years and probably five to ten or more. I realize some of these huge epidemiological studies were long term, but generally they all now seem discredited per Krause and others.
  • Many have suggested that particle size changes on high fat diets and these LDL numbers may be skewed from that. I've done some math, and I find the differences between large and small LDL are not big enough to account for the differences I see. I feel more and more that my LDL counts probably did rise then fall.

My feeling is that lipid don't cause anything. They are markers of problems. Many people live just fine with familialhypercholesterolemia. More evidence points to sugar as teh culprit, IMHO.

CONCLUSIONS:

A meta-analysis of prospective epidemiologic studies showed that there is no significant evidence for concluding that dietary saturated fat is associated with an increased risk of CHD or CVD. More data are needed to elucidate whether CVD risks are likely to be influenced by the specific nutrients used to replace saturated fat.
Meta-analysis of prospective cohort studies e... [Am J Clin Nutr. 2010] - PubMed - NCBI


Read this milti-part series by Dr. Peter Attia
The straight dope on cholesterol



 

 

 

 

 

On MDI and doing well. A1Cs range from 5.6 to 6.4. December 2016 was 6.1. 12 911's in my career; a few highs; lots of shots. Diagnosed Oct 19th, 1975.
Proliferative retinopathy March 1994, 4,000 laser, vitrectomy Oct. 2006. Vision 20/25 in right, 20/40 in left (slight cataract).


#13
apollo322

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I can only speak for my own reaction to this lifestyle. Eating a lchf diet and some pretty decent daily exercise has caused my cholesterol and triglyceride levels to go way down along with my blood glucose levels. For me getting the BG right made everything else fall into place, and I eat a lot of the things they say causes high cholesterol.
Diagnosed 4/2012 11.7 a1c Fbg 241
Currently on no meds
8/2012 5.9 A1C
1/2013. 5.8
4/2013 5.7- sensing a pattern here!
8/2013 5.9--ok maybe not!:)
3/17/2014- 5.8, back down the ladder!
Diet-- staying under 50 grams a day of carbs. Not weighing anything mostly rough estimates

Exercise-- 7 days a week but trying to keep it varied. Raquetball, biking, walking with Rocky and now a little lifting

#14
jwags

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Before Diabetes I was a vegan. I ate no butter, meat, eggs or cheese. But I did eat a ton of whole grains and fruit. At dx my bg fasting was 240 and my LDL was very high. Going LC and adding back saturated fat actually raised my HDL to 100 and lowered my LDL to 90. I was on statins for a little more than a year because my doctor insisted all D's needed them. The statin totally destroyed my muscle fiber and I am having difficulty rebuiding them.
metformin ER 4x500
Moderate carb diet 75-100 carbs


Vit D, CoQ10, Melatonin, Multi vitamin, zinc, B 12
Chia Seeds , Flaxseeds, Hemp seeds, biotin,tumeric, Occuvite, chromium , magnesium, calcium and CoQ10

Exercise- Power Walking- 4-5 miles most days, Hiking in the summer on trails and in the mountains

diagnosed Feb 2007
Age 66
110 pounds

#15
TX_Clint

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I address the statin and cholesterol issue the same as all other Medical ADVICE... you want me on statins? Go ahead and write the script. I just ain't gonna fill it. My medical team and I have a good understanding. They recommend and I decide. No arguments. If they have convincing evidence that I should take a certain medication then I"ll try it. NONE of these particular ststin medications will cure you of anything. They only treat a percieved medical condition that evidence has not proven to be an issue.

That's all folks.:)

DX - 08/1997 - A1c 10.4
Metformin 500x4
Jardiance 25
Levothroxine 137
Welchol 3.75
2012 A1c 10.4/6.2/5.7
2013 A1c 5.9/5.5/5.3/5.4
2014 A1c 5.5/5.4/5.8/6.1
2015 A1c 6.1,6.2,5.9
2016 A1c 5.9,5.8,5.6

2017 A1c 5.9


#16
Pete DeFinis

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That's exactly why I refuse to take them, aside form the other know side effects. I've been pushed low dose Prevastatin, but even that low dose makes me ache, and I'm an athlete that's not giving it up any time soon. I was being pushed the drug before my last reading. I was HDL: 97, LDL: 117, Trig: 85. Ratio were good, so I was wondering why. In all is'ts hard to be concerned about a 10 g per day increase in the sat fats, but you know us newbies:). I too would rather die of a heart attack thank with no eye and limbs on a table. I've seen statins to horrible tings to diabetics.
-Pete

Type II
DX 10-30-2011 A1C:12.2
Trig:unreadable, HDL:37 LDL:184
Weight 260 BF:26%

7-2013
Trig: 105, HDL 84, LDL:99
Weight 197, BF 13.4%
A1C: 6.0

#17
apollo322

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That's exactly why I refuse to take them, aside form the other know side effects. I've been pushed low dose Prevastatin, but even that low dose makes me ache, and I'm an athlete that's not giving it up any time soon. I was being pushed the drug before my last reading. I was HDL: 97, LDL: 117, Trig: 85. Ratio were good, so I was wondering why. In all is'ts hard to be concerned about a 10 g per day increase in the sat fats, but you know us newbies:). I too would rather die of a heart attack thank with no eye and limbs on a table. I've seen statins to horrible tings to diabetics.


And the numbers you just outlined are perfectly fine, particularly for someone who is exercising their heart a lot. I'm not suggesting there aren't cases where statins are a godsened but, much like ADHD medication and anti-depressants, they tend to be grossly over prescribed. With numbers like yours no one should be suggesting a statin
Diagnosed 4/2012 11.7 a1c Fbg 241
Currently on no meds
8/2012 5.9 A1C
1/2013. 5.8
4/2013 5.7- sensing a pattern here!
8/2013 5.9--ok maybe not!:)
3/17/2014- 5.8, back down the ladder!
Diet-- staying under 50 grams a day of carbs. Not weighing anything mostly rough estimates

Exercise-- 7 days a week but trying to keep it varied. Raquetball, biking, walking with Rocky and now a little lifting

#18
Hooterville

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I'm getting my first heart scan next week which will give me a coronary calcium score. I've been wanting to do this for a while. I'm supposed to be at a good age to get a baseline. I admit I'm a little nervous. I'll let you know the results.

A1c's: 1/11 9.4 ~ 3/11 7.9 ~ 6/11 7.8 ~ 7/11 7.6 ~ 10/11 7.5 ~ 12/11 6.4 ~ 3/12 5.9 ~ 6/12 5.4 ~ 9/12 5.4 ~ 12/12 5.3 ~ 3/13 5.1 ~ 8/13 5.5 ~ 10/13 5.4
Meds: 30 units Lantus - 2,550 mg Metformin
Diet: LCHF ketogenic, 30 to 40 carbs, dabbling in Paleo
Exercise: Lifting, walking, stair climbing
Weight Loss: 100.5 Pounds

She turned her can'ts in to cans and her dreams in to plans.

Posted Image

#19
GAgirl

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Well, I guess it's different for everybody. However on this forum MANY people were able to get their cholesterol in shape when their BG got in shape.

Personally though, I have good ratio and very high HDL (this time it's 92 and 3 month ago it was 105) but my LDL is also high- 168. What was horribly bad before I started my lchf diet was Triglycerides (around 300 with a norm limit of 150) and they became normal almost instantly as I started low carb diet and are normal since then (69 last test). I don't worry too much about my cholesterol. I just don't subscribe to the theory that it's most important thing for the healthy heart.

Good to hear on the Triglycerides!!! The same here...Before Trilipix 135 mgs. mine were 550! Now they are around 265-300 and so I cannot wait for them to drop!!! Yea!

                                                        

Type 2 

(Dx'd 6/24/13...6.8 A1-C / fbg 130)

Current A1c- 5.9 / fbg- 109

2 Metformin 500mgs-1@ breakfast / 1@ supper 

smileys-food-and-drinks-601144.gif LCHF preferred

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


#20
GAgirl

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I address the statin and cholesterol issue the same as all other Medical ADVICE... you want me on statins? Go ahead and write the script. I just ain't gonna fill it. My medical team and I have a good understanding. They recommend and I decide. No arguments. If they have convincing evidence that I should take a certain medication then I"ll try it. NONE of these particular ststin medications will cure you of anything. They only treat a percieved medical condition that evidence has not proven to be an issue.

That's all folks.:)


Agreed word for word 100%!!!
I decide!!!

                                                        

Type 2 

(Dx'd 6/24/13...6.8 A1-C / fbg 130)

Current A1c- 5.9 / fbg- 109

2 Metformin 500mgs-1@ breakfast / 1@ supper 

smileys-food-and-drinks-601144.gif LCHF preferred