[JediSurfer]

I remember a few months ago Cheryl when the docs wanted to give you, what was it? anti cholestorol drugs or something. And you got the levels down by yourself without the drugs. So it was obvious that you didnt actually need them.
I thinks drugs and medications should be the very last resort and if the problems can be solved thru lifestyle changes all the better. Maybe some people feel better taking pills. Personally I dont.

[Jan B]

I say, congratulations to anyone who manages to lower their blood pressure through natural means. Meditation is great; yoga is fabulous. Since I quit smoking, my heart rate has dropped 10 points. My blood pressure climbs when I miss a pill or two, so I'll keep taking the pills for now.

I would be thrilled to no end to really get off ACE inhibitors, but I won't consider it until I get low/normal readings.

Cheryl, it's not right that people on pills are bashing you (other forum!) -- maybe they just mean to say they are the ones who can't accomplish that and don't want you putting them down. However, in reading your posts, I've never had the idea you were putting others down. You always bring up how we are all different.

Good job Rich.

[Funnygrl]

There are just some people who feel that drugs ARE proven effective. High blood pressure damages kidneys- any variance over like 120/75. Since diabetes already damages kidneys also, why not take a low dose of an ACE inhibitor. I was too prideful to at first, then I realized my kidneys were more important than my pride.

The same goes for a statin, only for the heart. I don't personally take a statin though.

[JediSurfer]

I don't think my endo would even consider ACE inhibitors without an increased creatine levels at this point.

[cheryl]

Originally Posted by Funnygrl

There are just some people who feel that drugs ARE proven effective. High blood pressure damages kidneys- any variance over like 120/75. Since diabetes already damages kidneys also, why not take a low dose of an ACE inhibitor. I was too prideful to at first, then I realized my kidneys were more important than my pride.

The same goes for a statin, only for the heart. I don't personally take a statin though.

It's not pride LOL...for me, it's like ok had diabetes since the age of 12. Giving birth to children is supposed to over work the kidneys, so a lot of diabetics after multiple pregnancies will see an impact on numbers to thier kidneys....

Me, Cheryl horrible a1c's in the past....four kids run thru this body....four pregnancies.....kidney function is excellent, doesn't even show they had ever strained an ounce while pregnant. For me, I don't think, that I will personally suffer the kidney aspect of diabetes....I am way concerned over my heart, but then again, I see what the statin really did for my grandmother(aka type 2 diabetic), so I dunno if it's worth risking not getting a heartattack over CHF, which that has shown to happen to people on Statins, because of the vitamins b-12 getting a bit deprived from the system....and you know I just put it all together, knowing my grandma's numbers were perfect all her levels, and then blew up like a whatever had over 6 gallons of water come out of her, her body couldn't handle it, and she passed away a month later....

My point is, that I am so unsure of what the right thing to do is, for me it is so not my pride....it is more, I just hope I don't get any of that, and trying very hard to stay with great numbers thru, keeping bg's in check, exercise, and my diet....I hope I can.....if I do need the med's I will, but up until that point, I just can't, I am very leary of it all....

Cheryl

[Alice]

I'm one of those "Ace" people who take Lisinopril daily as a preventative. There is something in the compound that actually protects the kidneys from damage. Doctors prescribe it for long-term prevention...along with the immediate need, for some, to lower blood pressure.

I take it strictly for preventative measures as has been proven to be helpful. I have no problems taking it and don't see the big deal...especially if you already have high blood pressure.

For me, the "death & damage" of diabetes when we are older seems to originate from heart and kidney damage which are related to each other very closely.

We don't drop dead from "high blood sugar". We die from slow tissue and organ damage. Face it.

Why not do the the easy things now to prevent major problems later? I just dont' see the big deal in taking daily cholesterol and blood pressure meds.

I think if you're anti-med anyway...a doctor isn't going to change your mind.

Note: I'm not a pill-pusher...just know that almost every endo I've seen in 8 states basically says it's a no-brainer for preventing kidney problems later...I've also been on Zocor since my 20's for the same reason.

Maybe that's a small way I've made it 42 years without any damage...who's to know...but I don't want to risk anymore than I have to...

[Evermont]

I'm with Cheryl on this one. I'm not anti-drug, I'm more anti-drug-if-you-don't-NEED-it.

What I mean is that if I can make healthy changes such as eating healthier, exercising, using relaxation techniques, getting adequate sleep, avoiding harmful environmental factors, etc. I'm doing those things first. I'm doing all of those things to the greatest extent that I can. This is the first line of defense. By the way, I'm quite a skeptic too. I know that rip-offs and wackos are all too common when it comes to these things. I start at the local farmers market if I didn't grow it myself.

If I need a pill I'll take a pill. I'm all too familiar however with the folly of modern medicine. So what if it's by proxy, I'm a big fan of learning from other peoples mistakes. I've seen meds do bad things to people I care about. Oh sure, meds are not always bad and when bad things happen, you can't always know the cause. My position is that meds should always be the second line of defense. Too often we go there first.

If a pill helps 100,000 people and kills only one that's not so bad, unless that 1 person is somebody you care about.

[BlueSky]

I also have an issue with White Coat Syndrome. Fortunately, the endo recognised that this could be the case when he got a very high reading a few years ago(it was 164/83). He asked to me to relax so he could do it again. I used an NLP technique that instantly puts me in a light trance state. He did another test, which came out at 135/72. I now do this whenever I have my blood pressure taken and get a similar result.

Our blood pressure changes the whole time, depending what we are doing. The test is supposed to measure blood pressure at rest, so using a technique that creates this situation must be appropriate. I suspect there are a lot of people out there who have been put on drugs unnecessarily because there blood pressure appears to be higher than it really is. And, IMO, the notion that these drugs should be used anyway by diabetics is just a big pharma money making ploy.

[cheryl]

It's honestly not a big deal to some but it is to others...It depends on the person and their situation....That's the point, I am all for whoever wants to do whatever....that's their life, but for me, and personal experiences, and just seeing the way natural ways of eating and keeping your self well maintained so benefits....

I just don't want to do it....it didn't prevent grandma from anything, She still had a heartattack in 2001, she still died of CHF, she tried desperately to keep her bg's in check her a1c's were better then mine....I dunno anymore....it is an individual thing, then I look at my Aunt, ok this is not a diabetic story, but she had Breast cancer, in 1978, went the all natural eating route quit smoking all that, never ever had radiation or kemo, just the one breast removed, still cancer free....

I am just saying when you see one way personally versus another way, you tend to want to sway the way, where the people are actually living....if you get my drift....

But I am sure drugs have helped many people live a long long long time....I think it is a decision, that well is it could benefit one, but not the other, for me, I am not sure it would benefit me, I think it would harm me, especially since the bp, is only 100/60 most of the time....LOL...

Cheryl

[Alice]

I think the main goal of diabetics on ACE inhibitors is the "preventive" goal...before damage occurs.

[JediSurfer]

Just seen my GP about the blood pressure and he says all is well. But I will be monitoring my blood preesure myself over the next three weeks and take the results back to the doc. So far all my numbers have been good.
So looks like I'm ok for now.

[Gary_W]

There aren't THAT many drugs that you can take which have positive benefit X which do not have some impact on Y and Z....

My own personal feeling is that if you absolutely need help with X then you take the drug and take the hit in terms of its unwanted side effects. This gives you a problem from a prevention point of view.

There are some docs in the UK that will automatically prescribe a statin if you have diabetes; the theory (as I understand it) is that lower 'bad' cholesterol for someone in our boat is likely to ward off complications as far as the heart and circulation system goes. Indeed a few years ago I knew quite a few doctors in their 30's and 40's who had no known health problems that would routinely drop a statin and 1/2 asprin chaser to ward off the long term risk of heart failure and all the delights that go with...

Not so common now, as I've heard a few reports of possible renal damage with long term statin use. We kind of need our kidneys too.

I was put on a statin 3 or so years ago as a preventative. I took myself off it as I heard the renal queries and also they made me feel rotten. Yes, another subset of the drugs may have suited better but as my cholesterol is good at the moment I figured I'd do without them for now.

I would not rule out drugs in the future. Indeed, I welcome them at a point when they become needed. Each individual has to weigh up their feeling on benefits vs risks of taking / not taking a drug. IMO there comes a crossover point when the long term risks of taking some of the preventatives is outweighed by the risk of not taking them. I'm not quite at that age yet, but I'll keep an open mind and thank heavens for medical science being able to aid and abet when my age / attempts at a healthy lifestyle no longer do the trick.

Oh, and regarding the home blood pressure monitors. Do make sure you line up properly with the artery and do not move whilst using it. The little microphone which acts as its 'set of ears' is back in the machine and it is listening via the air hose. If you jiggle the air hose, you can get a false reading. They are never as accurate as a trained clinician with a manual meter and a decent set of ears, but if you do suffer from white coat syndrome then they are a godsend if used correctly. What really cheeses me off is when some badly trained fool at a clinic uses a £9.99 battery operated blood pressure monitor and puts the cuff on incorrectly. Which they nearly always do. And they always look at me with complete loathing when I tell 'em... In their case, they have low quality gear used incorrectly and then many patients get white coat syndrome anyway. It's a 3 way route to inaccurate readings.

Gary

[JediSurfer]

I have the exact same Omron monitor my doc uses. Cost quite a bit of money but for me it was money well spent.
I remember my father didnt suffer from high blood pressure til the aged of 38 and he was seriously ****ed up and only live another 12 years. I am in far better shape than my old man was at my age. Seriously far better shape. I reakon I can get another 20 years outta this body without any complications no problem.

A lot of renal damage is caused pre diagnoisis. Lucky for me I wasnt in that situation and all the organs are working very well indeed. But my kidneys are slighty small for my size 9.5 cm left and 10.5cm right side.

[Funnygrl]

Originally Posted by Alice

I think the main goal of diabetics on ACE inhibitors is the "preventive" goal...before damage occurs.

Bingo.

Waiting till you have kidney damage to start an ACEi is like putting your seat belt on after you're all bloody from a car wreck.

[cheryl]

Well I am just that risk taker now am I.......I already suffer low blood pressure spells, yea, me being dizzy all day because I am preventing my kidneys from something that might not ever happen is so not worth it for me.....sometimes my bp is a lot lower then 100/60....and even a minimal dose of ace could possibly lower mine...since I am quite truthful, sensitive to a lot of things......a little hydrocodine pill makes me high, two drinks and I am way beyond tipsy...I have low tolerance....so I know I'll be dizzy girl for a long long time if I even attempt that...I honestly am not against the ace....I have more issue's with the statins...in all actuality.....

Back to the point, I made earlier if four kids and a1c's in the 12's in more years I have been diabetic then them being good, hasn't even done a thing to them, I really am not worried about the kidney for myself...and also....i don't know why unless your not gonna have kids you'd go on that until your done having kids, then you have to be really really careful, not to ever ever get knocked up until you weene yourself off of it, and also if you even have one alcholic drink your risking your liver and your kidneys....think about that one....if any of you drink....not wise to do, to the organs....I won't touch anything anymore nada thing....so drinking I guess implies to the remarks too no drinking period end of discussion or your taking a risk.....I am not implying anyone drinks alcohol but it can damage ya too, if you think about it....and no pill is gonna stop that one seriously....

Cheryl