[E-NICE]

Stem cells treat diabetes in mice - Cloning and stem cells - MSNBC.com

[chinku]

Oh really ?
Is it the 10000 th time , the cure is coming ?

[Funnygrl]

So is Christmas.

[DCaplinger]

What part of all of this is so hard for people to understand? There is no cure, because they can't afford to give us one. That doesn't mean a cure would be expensive for us, it means a cure would be expensive for them. How many BILLIONS of dollars a year would they lose if they gave us a cure? In order to make a cure profitable, they'd have to charge a million dollars for it. If the cure is from a natural source, that money would be impossible to charge, because we could just go out and get it for ourselves.

There will never be a cure given to us. Not for diabetes, not for heart disease, not for anything. They can't make continuing money if you are cured... so they need you to be ill. If you die from the side effects, oh well, another person will be diagnosed with the same condition soon to take your place.

Sad thing is, it's all true.

Regards,

[RobiJo]

Originally Posted by DCaplinger

What part of all of this is so hard for people to understand? There is no cure, because they can't afford to give us one. That doesn't mean a cure would be expensive for us, it means a cure would be expensive for them. How many BILLIONS of dollars a year would they lose if they gave us a cure? In order to make a cure profitable, they'd have to charge a million dollars for it. If the cure is from a natural source, that money would be impossible to charge, because we could just go out and get it for ourselves.

There will never be a cure given to us. Not for diabetes, not for heart disease, not for anything. They can't make continuing money if you are cured... so they need you to be ill. If you die from the side effects, oh well, another person will be diagnosed with the same condition soon to take your place.

Sad thing is, it's all true.

Regards,

....... I think that sums it all up.

[Olidus]

What you are saying could very much be true. But there is always hope.
As long as there is someone out there that trying to cure it - there is hope.

Just like the water powered car. :p

I like to think that one day this will be cured. I may not agree 100% with what your saying Darian. The Drug companies will always find away to survive and make money off something else.

If a cure does come out - they can't hide it for long.

[sedita]

Personally I think this is a very naive view. In all honesty, I'm a bit tired of all the conspiracy theories.

Who would lose billions of dollars per year. Lilly, Novo Nordisk? Yes certainly these guys would feel a major hurt, financially.

But this would be an absolute windfall for whichever company could come up with a treatment of this nature. Guess what, the next big winner will be the group that finds a way to prevent the disease all together.

Take a look at some of the therapeutic agents for orphan diseases. They sell for hundreds of thousands of dollars. Although transplants may not be that expensive (then again they very well could be given the fact that they offer something no other therapy can), they certainly will not be cheap.

The reason it hasn't been cured yet, is because it's a rather complex disease to cure. The other reality is that it woudl take years for a cure such as this to become practical. The number of cells that are required for a single transplant are huge. Now imagine trying to scale this up to cure all the diabetics. Not an easy or quick task. Sales of insulin won't plumet overnight because of this.

Think about how much money insurance companies, business, and the federal goverment lose every year due to complications of this disease. Not curing it, has a much more significant financial impact on many more people than the few companies that would be hurt by someone finding a cure.

Will we see a cure in my lifetime. I hope so, but I really have no clue. But I know for a fact, that it won't be because lilly and other insulin manufacturers would lose money, and whoever does come up with the cure will be very, very rich.

[DCaplinger]

Naive? I have been in the health care industry for almost 15 years. The very doctor's I have worked with agreed with my opinions wholeheartedly. That's why they practiced alternative medicine. They got tired of being told what they could and could not give their patients by the drug companies. Haven't you noticed, that your insulin's have changed over time? The old ones were just as effective as they have always been. So, why the changes? The patents wore out on them. They are cheaper to purchase, so, they stopped making them in lieu of something they can charge more for, that doesn't do anything better or more than the previous version. That's not me being naive, that's me stating medical fact.

It is all about the money. Care to hope, but do not fool yourself. To big Pharma, it's not about you, or your well-being. It never was, and it never will be. Your doctor is just a pawn for big Pharma, and no matter how well their intent, as long as they are told by big Pharma what to give you, you will get what they give them to give you... poisons.

I again speak fact... I dare you to disprove it, because it cannot be done. There is not a single drug, not one, that has ever cured a disease. Again, there is not a single drug, not one, that has cured a single disease.

I understand the need to hope. However, if there is to be a cure, it won't be by state funded schools, or big Pharma. It will be by some diabetic or an obscure doctor. And if a cure were found, big Pharma would do whatever they could to disprove it for as long as possible, so they could continue to make money. If you don't believe that, then it isn't me who is being naive.

By the way, this is no theory. This is fact. Big Pharma has been playing these tricks for years. As for their pawns, the boys at the FDA... most of the boys in charge at the FDA either have worked for big Pharma, or end up working for them shortly after they leave the FDA.

I wouldn't say you are naive. I'd say you choose to hope. I hope too, so you aren't alone. However, I don't put my faith in doctors, at least, not mainstream doctors. They only give what they are told to give.

Regards,

[sedita]

I work in the bio-pharma industry as well, certainly not as long as you but I do have insight. I fully understand that pharma is about money, its a business, big business. And yes, I do agree that the companies with products out there are going to everything they can to defend their income stream. I personally have no problem with this. I'm not one of those who thinks that med should be free or even cheap. The day that happens, all progress will slow because there will be no incentive for a company to develop products that cost $100M+ to develop and bring to market.

Does big pharma try to motivate Drs. Absolutely, just like Sony and Nike try to influence you.

But to say my insulin's haven't changed over time? You haven't been diabetic long, if you signature is correct. Heck, I've only been one for 13yrs, not a long time by any standards. But i've been through the NPH the mixes of insulin, lantus, and am now on a pump. I can tell you they have changed, and significantly. Yes, they all do they same basic thing. But in very different ways. Give up your lantus and novolog and try some of the older insulins and tell me things havent' changed.

Yes part of this is due to the need for pharma to keep developing products that will have patent protection, so they can maintain their profits (this is actually a very real issue for pharma right now. many blockbusters are about to go generic and pharma is in for a world of hurt).

You are completely focused on the loss that big pharma would experience that you are totally ignoring the other guys who could benefit from providing a product like this. Is it a cure, well probably not really, once you can prevent the disease then we can talk cure. But it would be a **** of an improvement on what we have now.

I agree, the guys from big pharma do go to the FDA, but to believe they would stop something like this from becoming available, don't believe it. The need is too great. Do I think big pharma will cure this. **** no. This will be a biotech development without a doubt. But for it to get stuffed, no way, the results of trials would become public knowledge (especially positive ones) and the public outcry would be so great you couldnt' stop it.


Yes I agree, there is a lot of money at stake, but I believe that there is more to be gained from this than woudl be lost.

[DCaplinger]

Then we both agree on the same thing, in substance. I believe the answer to most illness lays in wait in nature. I am strongly convinced that there are already known cures to diseases, including cancer, that exist in nature, that are being blocked by big Pharma.

It is well known in natural medicine that hydrogen peroxide can cure many illnesses and diseases, however if you search for it, you'll find it is a toxic liquid. Hmmm, now, who would benefit from people thinking that something so inexpensive is toxic? I have no problems with the pharamceutical companies turning a profit. I just don't think they should do so at the cost of natural products that will do the same thing, with far fewer, if any, side effects.

Regards,

[sedita]

Agreed, money is the driving force. I had not intent to insult you and appologize if I did so.

Clearly we have opposite views on how the business works.

Please tell though, what can hydrogen peroxide cure? I certainly won't say it doesn't I just am not aware of the facts. I'm not a big natural remedy person. I won't say they don't work, I'm just in the camp of. If they truely do cure people, they there would have to be a pretty massive effort to cover up these effects. Again, this could all be routed back to big pharma and $$$, but if it is that effective you would think that word would have gotten out and adopted by the masses. If you have links to any well done studies I would even be interested in seeming them.

I think toxic is an interesting term. How is it toxic? through ingestion, topically??? I'm sure drinking a bottle of peroxide wouldnt' be too good. I know when I did research, we used diluted hydrogen peroxide to bleach tissues.

I am asking out of interest and not to provoke. I know tone doesn't come across on the forum.

[DCaplinger]

First, you haven't offended me in the slightest. And likewise, no offense is meant. I love a good spirited debate, and if you've followed any debate I've been in on these forums on roughly the same topic, you'll find I'm pretty consistent in my stance.

Originally Posted by sedita

If you have links to any well done studies I would even be interested in seeming them.

You have hit the biggest nail on the head, and it happens to be the very nail I've been complaining about for years. There are no "major" studies done in support of natural cures. The reasons are many, however, they all go back to the same issues... money.

This is where the "conspiracy" as you would call it, comes into play.

1) No public school or university would dare do a serious research study in support of a natural cure. Why? One word... funding. They'd lose funding if they were to do anything that would or could hurt the food or pharaceutical industries.

2) No pharmacy would ever do a study in support of a natural cure. Why? Because you can't patent nature. We have all heard of medicines that were "derived from natural plants". Bull. Either the medicine is from a natural plant, or it's a chemical, man made alternative. The latter, while chemically identical, is not the same as, nor as safe as the original natural product.

Dr Ron Kennedy, a Medical Doctor from Santa Rosa, California says it better than I can... read this story, and let's continue the conversation. I can give you a plethera of testamonials from MD's just like this one.

Chelation Therapy - H202 Therapy

Unfortunately, big Pharma and the FDA have worked hand in hand to "dispel" the truths that these doctors have tried to provide us. They do everything they can to quash the voices that would try to heal us. They misinform us, and try to make us believe that natural cures are dangerous, when in fact, it's the drugs that are dangerous.

Anyway, your turn. Hehehe. I don't want this to be a one sided debate, and I certainly don't want to either paint you into a corner or make you feel like you shouldn't debate your side. I do believe there is a need for medicine, I just don't believe it's the only answer.

Regards,

[JediSkipdogg]

I'm sick and tired of all those that think conspiracy theory. Keep in mind we have to look at "curing" type 1 and type 2 as totally different.

I will look at type 1 for my point. Who is to lose? Eli Lilly? Novo Nordisk? Who is to win? Consumers? Insurance companies? The federal government (Medicare)?

Remember that insurance is increasing an average of 10-15% a year and with new laws being drafted to create more "family" plans rates will just go up. They will hit a point where nobody will be able to afford it therefore hitting the government hard with unpaid bills and an even more increasing number of bankruptcy filings or people in debt. Insurance companies are only ordered to cover "diabetic" supplies. NOTHING says they must cover Novolog, Apidra, and Humalog. So, the easy solution....Blue Cross Blue Shield will only cover Novolog and make a deal with them. That will force Apidra and Humalog to lower prices.

Or insurance companies will start dumping more and more money into research so they may save themselves money.

Heck, I'm sure those that got the flu this year claim some conspiracy theory on the flu shot only being 40% effective compared to 80% effective in the past. I guess Tammaflu (???) paid millions to the one solo flu shot maker to make a defective flu vaccine and that it has nothing to do with the flu mutating the most it ever has from the past.

Type 1 diabetes is extremely hard. Progress over the past 5 years has been much more successful than the 50 years before that. We have finally seen with a microscope what the auto-immune disease looks like. Now it's just finding out how to either kill it or slow it down. Oh, and guess what, that would take a pill or shot. But then it would allow the body to control itself. So there's no loss of money there, just changing of hands.

Sometimes I hate people posting any new cure findings on here... There's much more money to come in finding a cure than not.

[sedita]

I think we have ventured a bit off the intent of this thread. I'm not completely in agreement with your issue on funding. There is some really funky research out there. Yes certain sources (pharma funded) of funding might be harder to obtain, but if someone can show logical rationale supported by solid science, there will be some level of funding available.

One your second. Actually, I belive there have been patents issue for natural products. I read a book the other day, but unfortunately can't remember the details of the drug that was discussed for this specific issue. Another off the top of my head is botulinum toxins. they have been granted use patents. (ie, patent protection for specific therapeutic indications has been granted.

I don't think natural means safe or better. It's all about levels needed to achieve a therapeutic affect and balancing that with the resulting side effects. I imagine there are a number of natural remedies that when given at therapeutic levels will have some quite nasty effects.

Like you I would actually love to see a high quality study comparing commercial drugs with natural remedies, comparing efficacy with side effects. I think the results would be interesting.

[princesslinda]

Darian and Sedita, kudos to you both on keeping a lively and interesting debate going on without letting it escalate into something "personal." I've came back to this post several times to read the responses and I applaud you both for your courteous, intelligent and well-thought-out responses. Nothing like a good debate!