[Johny]

Hi all, lately i have tested my sugar levels 2 hours after only consuming meat and they have been high, i can't work this out because i was under the impression that meat had zero carbs.
I didn't realize that meat would rise my sugar levels so high.
thanks for any advise.

[KarenBC]

If I have a meat with a high fat content my levels tend to be high.

[Johny]

Thanks Karen, i didn't know that the fat content would rise the sugar levels up, i guess i have got a lot to learn yet.
Johny

[someone]

First of all, meat is loaded with fat and protein which can prolong the time it takes for other carbs to be absorbed. Many see this when eating pizza.. the cheese makes the bread absorb much slower.

I believe gluconeogenesis can also play a role here. Have a look at Gluconeogenesis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and Gluconeogenesis - Glucose Metabolism from Fats, Proteins. This is more likely to occur on a low carb or carb free diet. Essentially, pyruvic acid is made as your body metabolizes protein (or carbs) which can then be converted to glucose via gluconeogenesis.

[davef]

The other thing to watch is things like breaded chicken.If you have chicken in bread crumbs you have to take into account that while the chicken itself will probably be fine the bread crumbs (or batter) could hit your BG.

One other thing to watch is sauces, so chicken wings with a hot sauce could also hit your BG, the true could the the same if you have a sauce with your pork, beef or lamb.

Your approach of eating and then testing is spot-on and then best way of learning what foods suit you best.

[BrianSCohen]

Johny,

This is an interesting topic. Actually this kinda blows the whole obsession withe the whole carb thing. I've been following strict low carb diets for some time now and have found that I will routinely convert protein to blood sugar. I believe Dr. Bernstein recommends that those following his diet plan should bolus (insulin) based on about a conversion of 3g of protein into the equivalent of 1g carb (about a third of protein gets converted to blood sugar). Perhaps there are others more familiar with his specific recommendations. I've also heard that in a pinch, fat can even be converted to blood sugar, although in general gluconeogenesis only converts fat to ketone bodies.

Protein and fat also delay or blunt the blood sugar response, so any blood sugar response you have will be stretched over a longer time. I find that if I eat a zero carb meal with significant protein (30-50g), I may still have a 30-50 mg/dl rise and a 20 mg/dl rise at two hours. It is for this reason that Dr. Bernstein recommends strict control of protein portions, as his carb guidelines are low enough that overeating protein will disrupt blood sugar control and even lead to weight gain.

[Johny]

Thanks everyone for sharing your knowledge & reffered url's, it is very much appreciated
many thanks,
Johny

[BlueSky]

Originally Posted by BrianSCohen

.... Dr. Bernstein recommends that those following his diet plan should bolus (insulin) based on about a conversion of 3g of protein into the equivalent of 1g carb (about a third of protein gets converted to blood sugar). ...

I am not so sure about this. If your body needs amino acids to do repairs and maintenance, it won't turn them into glucose. Only the excess protein, above the physiological requirement, will be available for being turned into glucose. I don't eat more protein than my body needs to look after itself - about 60 grams a day.

I can't see that protein would be a significant source of glucose, not for me anyway. But I have also noticed that a meal consisting of eggs, cheese and mushrooms increases blood glucose substantially. Fat is also used in gluconeogenesis, but you wouldn't see much of that after a high fat/protein meal. It would be more spread out over.

I suspect that the increase in BG after a high protein/fat, zero carb meal has nothing to do with glucose made from it. Perhaps it is what Bernstein calls the Chinese Restaurant effect - glucose released by the liver as food enters the stomach.

[Johny]

Thanks Blue Sky, our systems are a complicated mechanism, you guys are so knowledgeable. i have a lot of learning to do.
Johny

[Brian.M3606]

Wow, amazing what knowledge is available here. A lot of things make more sense now. I had been replacing my love for carbs with meat, eggs and cheese. BGs were all over the place, frustration set in and I went back to eating carbs.

Now I know why things are leveling out that I am on a more balanced diet: little bit of lean protein, tons of green vegatables.

Thank you,

Brian

[xMenace]

I'm always in favor of validating my assumptions as much as I can.

There is a phenomenon where if you are fasting for some time and you consume any food, your BGs will rise. I always experience this at lunch when I sleep in and skip breakfast. I've tested by eating just a plain lettuce/rabbit food salad with zero carbs and fats. My BGs went from 5's to low teens in half an hour. I now double+ my normal dose for these lunches.

I'm not saying this is what you experience, but as a control, do what you did with the protein but this time have a plain salad with no dressing. If you get a rise, something else is going on. Perhaps your basals are off.

[BlueSky]

There is a big discrepancy between the carbs foods contain and the effect they have on blood glucose. There is also a big discrepancy between the glycemic index of food (the effect it has on blood glucose) and the amount of insulin they soak up. Food like meat and fish aren't listed in the GI tables because they contain no carb. But they have a major effect on blood glucose, and they use a lot of insulin. Below is a bar chart showing different foods and their insulin index.

The insulin index is pertinent for us diabetics as it is an indication of how much insulin we need to inject (or has to be produced by the beta cells of a T2). As you can see, meat and fish have lower insulin requirements than carby foods, but it is still substantial.

According to the chart, Jelly Beans should be the most effective food for treating a hypo.

[Emm]

That's an interesting graph bluesky - where's it from? Is there more info on other foods too?

Of course, as good as the graph is, we also have to consider that each and every one of us is different. All the little bits & pieces need to be considered too - like how much exercise you get, and how much carb you eat daily (if you don't eat much carb you'll convert more fat & protein into glucose).

I do inject to cover meat, at a lower rate than carbs. A decent chunk of steak is worth a fairly full dose to me, but a couple of thinner slices of roast meat isn't even worth considering. So yes, meat can sometimes give quite a decent boost to my blood sugars.

It helps to write down what you eat & what your BGs are - maybe not every meal of every day, but any time you can do it. It's very very handy to look back on, and you'll notice trends that you completely missed without the visible reminder.

Johny, are you taking any meds at all? How long does it take for your blood sugar to get back into range?

[jacobsam622]

Originally Posted by Johny

Thanks Blue Sky, our systems are a complicated mechanism, you guys are so knowledgeable. i have a lot of learning to do.
Johny

When you eat carbs your liver tucks some away for future use because even while sleeping the brain needs glucose this process is called gluconeogenesis. In a normal person ie without diabetes insulin controls the amount of sugar produced by the liver in Type II diabetes, however, insulin is unable to inhibit sugar production in the liver, lack of communication between insulin and the liver causes the amount of glucose to rise. So in short if you dont eat some carbs your body will do it for you. Aint diabetes fun.

[BlueSky]

Originally Posted by Emm

That's an interesting graph bluesky - where's it from? ...

It us from An Insulin Index of Foods: The Insulin Demand Generated by 1000-kJ Portions of Common Foods in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition 1997, Vol. 66: pages 1264-1276 by Susanne HA Holt, Janette C. Brand Miller, and Peter Petocz. That is the same Jennie Brand Miller of the Glycemic Index fame, from the University Of Sydney. You can download the study from here An insulin index of foods: the insulin demand generated by 1000-kJ portions of common foods -- Holt et al. 66 (5): 1264 -- American Journal of Clinical Nutrition.

No, they didn't do any other foods. This approach, which I believe is far more pertinent, was abandoned in favour of the Glycemic Index. The insulin index shows that the carb content of food is not the key driver of insulin demand.

I felt tremendous relief when I saw this, because I have never been able to get carb counting and application of a carb ratio to work for me. I can now see that it is not all my fault ...