[Kim_in_TN]

I still swear by the fact that it was after I started taking Celexa and particularly after I increased my dosage, that I began putting on weight and quickly! From that time on, I began to begin a weight-gaining cycle which lowered my desire and ability to even attempt at exercising. A few short years after the increased dosage of Celexa and I get a Diabetes DX. Coincidence? I really don't think so! I was always underweight if anything for my entire life up until I began on antidepressants.

[PERKDOUG]

I reinterate my view that classical type 2 diabetes is caused by over consumption of refined carbohydrates such as sugar, white flour and polished rice and other food villians that would be properly considered "refined carbohydrates". Prior to approximately the year 1850 there was very little diabetes compared to todays percentages found in the worlds various populations. Around 1850 there began the refining of flour into various components such as white flour, bran and wheat germ ect. This was done cheaply by machine allowing for the first time the common man to have white flour in quantity. Also, sugar became available to the common man at a reasonable cost. As time passed (about 20 years) and as the consumption of these items increasingly displaced slower acting carbohydrates in the diet the disease appeared. This story played out over and over on the Indian reservations of the U.S. Sugar and flour displaced cultural food items and obesity and diabetes appeared like a plague. This same story has played out in other countries of the world. If you are a type 2, reflect on your dietary habits leading up to you diagnosis. This does not mean that all carb abusers will get diabetes. Many of us have more robust genes to resist the disease while others are very weak. The disease appears to believe in affirmative action by putting the non Anglo's at the front of the line for the disease. The refined carbohydrates are so widely used by us all, that trying to prove that refined carbs are the cause would prove difficult.
I am amused by all the research into genes and evil chemicals and food additives ect. that are reported on and suspected as causes of the disease. Read the history of the disease and you may agree with me as to the cause. And just to be a pest, let me add beer to the list of food items contributing to this horror.

[fgummett]

Many of us have more robust genes to resist the disease while others are very weak.

Way to show your sensitive side. I'm glad that I am not your "Spouse/Significant other"

The disease appears to believe in affirmative action by putting the non Anglo's at the front of the line for the disease.

Even ignoring your lack of cultural sensitivity yet again... how can you say this and still discount genetics?

The refined carbohydrates are so widely used by us all, that trying to prove that refined carbs are the cause would prove difficult.

How convenient that you can make such blanket statements but even admit yourself that it would be difficult to prove.

I am amused by all the research into genes and evil chemicals and food additives ect. that are reported on and suspected as causes of the disease.

I'm glad that someone finds this all so amusing. Let me just reiterate my first point...

[cadcon]

Originally Posted by fgummett

Way to show your sensitive side. I'm glad that I am not your "Spouse/Significant other"

Even ignoring your lack of cultural sensitivity yet again... how can you say this and still discount genetics?

How convenient that you can make such blanket statements but even admit yourself that it would be difficult to prove.

I'm glad that someone finds this all so amusing. Let me just reiterate my first point...

I too don't find alot of factual information in your post. Please
buy a clue, they are on Isle 3 at walmart.

[cadcon]

Originally Posted by cadcon

I too don't find alot of factual information in your post. Please
buy a clue, they are on Isle 3 at walmart.

Sorry Frank,

Not you....Perkdoug.

Regards,

Jim

I am offended. Ticked, etc.

[BlueSky]

From an epidemiological point of view, what PERDOUG says makes good sense. And it is factual. Diabetes simply wasn't a problem until the 1900's. Causes of its emergence over such a short period of time have to have been environmental. Genes don't change that quickly. Food supply obviously is a big environmental issue. The other big one, that PERDOUG didn't mention, is the dramatic decline in activity levels during the last 100 years. If we got lots of exercise (like 5+ hours a day), we would be able to tolerate a high refined-carb diet a lot better.

[fgummett]

What I really object to is the way that the "facts" were presented. I am heartily sick of peole who do not have a weight problem pontificating on how "easy" it is to, "just eat less and exercise more". Try walking a mile in my shoes first.

Of course genes don't change that quickly, but an existing genetic trait can be made evident by an environmental change. The usual assumption is that it has to do with overconsumption of the readily available refined carbs and a sedentary lifestyle... but that is still an unproven assumption. Did you read the partial list above of other changes in the last century?

Which comes first, the disordered blood sugar or the weight gain? Can you prove your answer?

How can someone on medication for Type 2 diabetes have a gastric bypass and leave the hospital off all meds, and with good blood sugars before they have even lost a pound? Evidently, there is something else going on here.

We need to start thinking outside the box and open our minds to other possibilities... like the example I cited above of Peptic Ulcers also being seen as caused by lifestyle choice, until they found out it was a bacteria.

Even if everything PERKDOUG says is 100% correct that is still only stating the problem and does nothing to help anyone by offering a realistic solution. And I still don't care for the attitude.

[cadcon]

Originally Posted by BlueSky

From an epidemiological point of view, what PERDOUG says makes good sense. And it is factual. Diabetes simply wasn't a problem until the 1900's. Causes of its emergence over such a short period of time have to have been environmental. Genes don't change that quickly. Food supply obviously is a big environmental issue. The other big one, that PERDOUG didn't mention, is the dramatic decline in activity levels during the last 100 years. If we got lots of exercise (like 5+ hours a day), we would be able to tolerate a high refined-carb diet a lot better.

Bluesky,

I don't buy that. If anything it is because documentation didn't
exist before 1900 let alone up to the 50's or even later. It's
probably been around for a long time but people died when
they were the ripe old age of 40. The part about exercise YOU
posted makes some sense, The didn't drive they walked, farmed etc. but still died earlier than we do now.

I'm 3rd generation diabetic. I'm sorry my family never talked
about it but here I am. Define quickly. I believe we are a product of our enviroment to a certain degree but some of it is
out of our control. I'm fit, eat good and still got it. Go figure.

Just my 2 Cents,

Respectfully to all,

Jim

[fgummett]

Consider this hypothesis, "The Blood Sugar (BS) dysregulation starts before the weight gain."

* What triggers it?
Likely suspects are environmental... perhaps eating refined carbohydrates, or perhaps plastics or all the other chemicals we find in and around our bodies. Did you know they found agent orange in the pristine arctic wilderness... yes, we are poisoning our planet and ourselves. Or perhaps it is sedentary lifestyle. Or higher levels of background radiation. Or higher levels of UV radiation. Or perhaps an infection. Or maybe a mixture of these and/or other triggers.

* Why isn't everyone affected?
Type 2 Diabetes tends to run in families and especially in certain ethnic groups which suggests a genetic predisposition. Perhaps it is related to the thrifty gene which not only makes more efficient use of every bite of food but also stores more fat... a valuable asset in times of famine to assure the survival of the human race but in these times of plenty... not so much. Perhaps it is another gene altogether, or both... a double whammy, where a gene is triggered that dysregulates BS in people who also have the thrifty gene.

* The BS dysregulation causes hunger pangs
Plenty of sugar on board but our cells can't access it, so they signal hunger... real hunger... just the same kind of signal we get when we are thirsty or need to take a breath. To anyone who says, "it just takes will-power to control the hunger", I suggest you sit at the bottom of a very deep swimming pool and see how long your "will-power" allows you to hold your breath.

* The hunger pangs lead to overeating
With the BS dysregulation in place the normal satiety mechanisms are not working as they should.
This ultimately causes weight gain which exacerbates the BS dysregulation and adds to the above vicious cycle. Recent studies suggest that larger abdominal fat cells increase appetite, or at the every least are an active part of the endocrine system rather than just a passive energy repository.
Excess weight reduces energy and puts additional strain on the joints such that exercise becomes harder to do.
Excess weight can also lead to sleep apnea which can again increase appetite and reduce energy. More of the same vicious cycle...

This is, of necessity over-simplified, but I am seeking to offer an alternate to the current assumptions.

[BlueSky]

Originally Posted by fgummett

Consider this hypothesis, "The Blood Sugar (BS) dysregulation starts before the weight gain."...

I am with you all the way on that. The notion that weight gain causes insulin resistance doesn't make sense to me. That insulin resistance causes weight gain is much more logical. So what causes the initial "Blood Sugar Dysregulation"? Maintaining a positive energy balance (more calories going in than being used) seems to make the most sense. But I am sure there various other factors involved.

[jacobsam622]

I have said this before and I will keep saying it. Its the drugs a 100 years ago we didn't have drugs for ulcers, for sleeping disorders for chronic pain, acid reflux. You have a pain go to the doctor and he will give drugs for what ever ails you. My diabetes or I should insulin resistance started because of a pinched nerve in my lower back. The doctor put me on a three week course of steroids to fix the pinched nerve. Because of the pinched nerve I developed acid reflux so the doctor put me on Previced. Because I also had chronic back pain because of three bulging disks I also put on about 4 different types of chronic pain meds including viox and Neurontin. When This all started I was about 7 pounds under weight. By the time I was diagnosed I had gained 60 pounds and lost 40 as a result of the diabetes. Diabetesnis great diet when your bgs are above 500.

[PERKDOUG]

Thanks guys for the responses to my post. You may disagree and you are right that I cannot not prove my case. My opinion is based on medical and food records regarding the Indian tribes of the U.S as well as doctors records who treated various tribal cultures around the world before and after they were introduced to refined carbohydrates. I am simply a parrot repeating what I have read. You can read and form your own opinion. It is unfortunate you do not like my attitude but I try to spice my posts with a little humor which at times reflects some political uncorrectness. I have been immune to the political correctness virus that has afflicted most of society. I was educated in science and have less than rubust social skills as well as a retarded ability to express myself in prose. I am sorry you find my style offensive.

[HelenM]

I don't buy that. If anything it is because documentation didn't
exist before 1900 let alone up to the 50's or even later.

Actually it does, doctors catering for the wealthier sectors of society describe the condition. It was in France, the UK and Germany, the first countries where sugar became readily available that the first documentation linking obesity, hypertension and diabetes ocured. There are few mentions before the 17th century.
A text book advocating diet and exercise for the treatment of adult diabetes ,« De la glycosurie ou diabète sucré » appeared in 1876. Its author Apollinaire Bouchardat, noticed that during the siege of Paris where food was restricted, the symptoms of his patients with diabetes improved. He in turn was influenced by an 18th C Scottish doctor John Rollo who thought that the origin of diabetes was in the stomach where starch was transformed to glucose, passing into the blood and causing hyperglycemia.
These doctors were not treating type 1, Bourchadat distinguises the types using the words diabète maigre (which quickly led to death) and diabète grasse (terms still sometimes used in France today).

[CarrieB]

Funny what the press chooses to pick up and what gets ignored.

Burns et al. 2007. Early-onset type 2 diabetes in obese white subjects is characterised by a marked defect in beta cell insulin secretion, severe insulin resistance and a lack of response to aerobic exercise training.
Diabetologia 2007 vol 50


To quote a small section from the abstract. 'We hypothesised that exercise alone, with stable diet, should improve insulin sensitivity. They (participants)were significantly more insulin resistant.... Exercise intervention had no significant effect on whole-body or hepatic insulin sensitivity or insulin secretion.

In trying to explain their unexpected results they wonder if certain diabetes susceptibility genotypes might predispose individuals to respond or not to respond to exercise. They also cite another 2005 study that found a great variability in people¹s metabolic response to exercise, with the majority of participants showing a 'deterioration in the acute insulin response to glucose.'

The people in Burn's study were aged up to 30 on diagnosis.

Possibly diabetes will be understood whilst its still some help to me. In the meantime I¹m keeping an open mind and trying to work out what works best for me.

[volleyball]

It is funny how we all assume that everyone was really physical in the past. There has always been people with power over others to do their manual work. There has always been jobs that took little effort.
A lot of societies over the last few thousand years have processed their foods. We don't know how many of them developed diabetes. you got sick, you did less, if you had caregivers, they may have killed you with kindness by feeding you the wrong food. In the past 35 was the average years of life, maybe if their diabetes were managed, the average age may have jumped to 45 or more. We don't know and may never know.
I think that families do pass on the gene, I think families tends to eat the same food, with small closed populations, interbreeding gives most if not all the chance for the gene. Also a group would tend to eat the same food. With a lot of minorities, this may account for their higher percentages. While a lot of studies may say certain groups are higher in incidence, I think they are in some air conditioned room looking at data thinking that is the whole picture when it is not.
Saying a tribe of a few hundred have a higher incidence so it is because of their being their race or they don't eat native foods is not that simple.