[georgepds]

So what's worse... being fat or having diabetes when it comes to cardio vascular disease. I often wonder about the relative risk of different factors. I found a site that spells them out. The good things (eating fruits and vegetables) lower risk. The bad things (smoking, diabetes) increase risk. The worst thing is Lipid profile... but not the normal LDL/HDL/TCG numbers, it turns out it's related to the type of LDL

The bad news is diabetes is and extraordinarily large risk factor, about 8 times riskier (300/37) than that belly some of us are carrying around



WHFoods: Atherosclerosis
"..the INTERHEART Study, involved 52 countries representing every inhabited continent and more than 30,000 subjects, and was published in the Lancet. Its finding was that nine risk factors, all of which are modifiable through diet and lifestyle, account for 90% of all heart disease in men and 94% in women-regardless of race or the country in which they live.

The nine factors affecting risk are:
-30% * Eating Vegetables and Fruits Daily
-14% * Regular Physical Activity: Moderate or strenuous
-9% * Moderate Alcohol Consumption: 3 or more times per week.
37% * Abdominal Obesity
200% * High Blood Pressure
200% * Diabetes: More than doubles heart attack risk.
250% * Unremitting stress, whether at work or at home.
300% * Smoking: Current smokers compared to persons who have never smoked.
325% * Abnormal Blood Lipids: Having an excessively high amount of small dense LDL cholesterol in relation to less potentially harmful forms of LDL. Persons with a high ratio of ApoB/ApoA1 have a 3.25 or more than 3 times higher risk of heart attack compared to those whose ratio is low.

[fgummett]

Yup... man oh man..! I have been told that a Dx of Type 2 D puts us in the same category as someone who has already had a heart attack! It would be oh so easy to just get totally overwhelmed by all the bad news and give up BUT thank goodness for DF and the folks here Fear can be a great short-term motivator but I find that thinking about being around for my son to grow up and maybe even see some grandchildren, is more than enough motivation for me to keep up with the daily grind

[xMenace]

There's a number of issues with D and CVD.

- high BGs slow blood flow
- damaged inner walls of vessels promote plaque buildup
- stiff outer walls increase BP
- vessels tend to be smaller and are much more difficult to treat surgically.

One of the reasons I don't like extreme low low carb diets is fruits and some veggies are often left out. They protect against the C thing too.

[shutterbug]

Good info.. Thank you George!

[georgepds]

Originally Posted by xMenace

...
One of the reasons I don't like extreme low low carb diets is fruits and some veggies are often left out. They protect against the C thing too.

Yea... that one had me in tizzy last year. On the one had there were the monomaniacs (like Bernstein) who avoid almost all carbs to avoid increased BG levels. OTOH, studies show eating your fruits and veggies lowers your risk of cardiac mortality. How to resolve the two ?

My "middle path" is to continue to eat the fruits and vegetables, and monitor the BG

[xMenace]

Originally Posted by georgepds

How to resolve the two ?

My "middle path" is to continue to eat the fruits and vegetables, and monitor the BG

My BG troubles from food inevitable trace back to eating too much. It doesn't make much difference what I eat. How much I eat does.

"Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants." seems to work well most of the time.

[georgepds]

Originally Posted by xMenace

..."Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants." seems to work well most of the time.

A very good rule, and one I'm trying to follow.

I notice you quote it, are you quoting yourself or someone else? If it is someone else, I'd like to read more about what they say.

This rule seems similar to that of Ornish, who tends to concentrate on the low fat aspects of his vegetarian diet for cardiac health

[georgepds]

Originally Posted by georgepds

A very good rule,..

I found the citation

In Defense of Food: An Eater's Manifesto , M Pollan

Amazon.com: In Defense of Food: An Eater's Manifesto: Michael Pollan: Books

He is a very engaging writer. Here is a quote on the vrtues of a carrot

"www nytimes com/2007/01/28/magazine/28nutritionism.t.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&ref=magazi ne"

"When William Prout isolated the big three macronutrients, scientists figured they now understood food and what the body needs from it; when the vitamins were isolated a few decades later, scientists thought, O.K., now we really understand food and what the body needs to be healthy; today it’s the polyphenols and carotenoids that seem all-important. But who knows what the H*LL else is going on deep in the soul of a carrot?

The good news is that, to the carrot eater, it doesn’t matter. That’s the great thing about eating food as compared with nutrients: you don’t need to fathom a carrot’s complexity to reap its benefits. "

[KarenBC]

I think this means I was 664% on my way to having a heart attack before I rec'd my DX in April. I kept having dreams that I'd either had or was just having a heart attack. Never had dreams like that before - so subconcious or the fates were trying to tell me something.

[Evermont]

Originally Posted by georgepds

...Its finding was that nine risk factors, all of which are modifiable through diet and lifestyle, account for 90% of all heart disease in men and 94% in women-regardless of race or the country in which they live.
...
325% * Abnormal Blood Lipids: Having an excessively high amount of small dense LDL cholesterol in relation to less potentially harmful forms of LDL. Persons with a high ratio of ApoB/ApoA1 have a 3.25 or more than 3 times higher risk of heart attack compared to those whose ratio is low.

I'll be asking my doctor to order this test on my next batch. Now where's the details on WHAT we modify in order to lower this ratio?

Originally Posted by xMenace

...One of the reasons I don't like extreme low low carb diets is fruits and some veggies are often left out. They protect against the C thing too.

That protective quality comes from phytochemicals (link) in addition to the more commonly known vitamins and minerals.

Originally Posted by georgepds

...On the one had there were the monomaniacs (like Bernstein) who avoid almost all carbs to avoid increased BG levels. OTOH, studies show eating your fruits and veggies lowers your risk of cardiac mortality. How to resolve the two ?

My "middle path" is to continue to eat the fruits and vegetables, and monitor the BG

Exactly.

[PERKDOUG]

Quote by XMenace:
One of the reasons I don't like extreme low low carb diets is fruits and some veggies are often left out. They protect against the C thing too.

If veggies are that important, how could the Eskimo's on their traditional nearly all meat diet have perhaps the lowest incidence of cancer in the world. The incidence of cancer was so low ( before they took up the modern diet ) that Canadian doctors when they encountered the rare case, wrote it up in their professional literature as a case study. This is something to reflect on in our quest for better health. As the doctors say, more research is needed to figure out the Eskimo "problem" after all, this should not be.
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that Eskimos also had some lowest measured cardiovascular disease in the world. Don't tell Dr. Ornish.

[xMenace]

Originally Posted by PERKDOUG

Quote by XMenace:
One of the reasons I don't like extreme low low carb diets is fruits and some veggies are often left out. They protect against the C thing too.

If veggies are that important, how could the Eskimo's on their traditional nearly all meat diet have perhaps the lowest incidence of cancer in the world. The incidence of cancer was so low ( before they took up the modern diet ) that Canadian doctors when they encountered the rare case, wrote it up in their professional literature as a case study. This is something to reflect on in our quest for better health. As the doctors say, more research is needed to figure out the Eskimo "problem" after all, this should not be.
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that Eskimos also had some lowest measured cardiovascular disease in the world. Don't tell Dr. Ornish.

It's an excellent point.

There are many such examples around the world of people living well with rather limited diets. The commonality is they all ate food! They didn't eat refined grains, HFCS, and a gazillion additives. They also adapted to their diets over the centuries.

[PERKDOUG]

I fully agree, refined carbohydrates are at the root of the evil. I am happy to find others that believe this to be the problem.

[xMenace]

Originally Posted by PERKDOUG

I fully agree, refined carbohydrates are at the root of the evil. I am happy to find others that believe this to be the problem.

One of the problems with the meats we buy is they are fed refined grains. Inuits' meat was all natural.

Another aspect is stress. Natural stressess build defenses. Stressed (organic) veggies have better nutrients than a greenhouse grown one in optimal conditions. Much of our diet is stress-free. Inuits' diets were stressed.

You are what you eat eats!

[xMenace]

Originally Posted by Evermont

That protective quality comes from phytochemicals (link) in addition to the more commonly known vitamins and minerals.

What are phytochemicals?

Phytochemicals are chemicals found in plants. Plant sterols, flavonoids (FLAV'oh-noidz), and sulfur-containing compounds are three classes of micronutrients found in fruits and vegetables. These compounds may be important in reducing the risk of atherosclerosis (ath"er-o-skleh-RO'sis), which is the buildup of fatty deposits in artery walls. Within these categories are many possible compounds, most of which aren't well described and whose modes of action aren't established. Many other plant products may also be linked to the atherosclerotic process, such as antioxidant vitamins, phytoestrogens and trace minerals. These plant micronutrients will clearly be the topic of future research. As work continues on all these compounds, other unrecognized components in plants will be identified that may have promise in reducing risk of cardiovascular disease.


Beware reductionist science. Our understanding of these mechanisms is in its infancy. Vitamin supplements are refined components. They are assumed to be valuable, but have not yet been proven so. Food is extremely complex. We do not know most of the interactions. The only sure way to get coverage is to eat real food and avoid food-like substances.