[bunbury]

Originally Posted by NewdestinyX

With respect Shottle for the amazing success you're personally experiencing, if we were to follow every new fad nutrition mantra out there we would live hopelessly confused lives. Any time we 'starve' ourbody of certain basic food types we're asking for trouble somewhere down the line. "Moderation" is the name of the game IMHO. But do your thing, my friend!! Glad it's working for ya!

'Moderation' is a subjective opinion and in this context reveals prejudice . Shottlebop's health regime works - it delivers low BGs, a good BMI and a healthy lipid profile. It can put neuropathies in reverse. The reasons why it works are well documented and if you do a little reading you will find that your hi-carb low-fat diet is the 'new fad nutrition mantra' - new kid on the block. Un-'amazingly' Shottlebop's regime works for a lot of very happy people.

[NewdestinyX]

Originally Posted by fgummett

Is dietary carbohydrate essential for human nutrition?

These articles so often read like 'opinion pieces'. Study parameters weren't even given in the 'article'. And we really need to quote 'more' to make clear other aspects of the author's concessions as this from the same article.

It is possible that if more humans consumed diets severely restricted in carbohydrate, a carbohydrate deficiency syndrome might become apparent.

When carbohydrates are eliminated from the diet, there is a risk that intakes of vitamins, minerals, and perhaps yet unidentified beneficial nutrients provided by carbohydrate-rich foodstuffs (eg, fiber) will be inadequate. There are case reports of extreme dieters who probably developed deficiencies. One dieter who only ate cheese, meat, and eggs (no vegetables) was reported to have developed thiamine-deficient optic neuropathy (14).

The name of the game is moderation, gang. (imho)

[fgummett]

Actually not an 'article' but a "Letter to the Editor" of the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition by Eric C Westman MD, MHS, of the Department of Medicine Duke University Medical Center. And he concludes by suggesting

Although there is certainly no evidence from which to conclude that extreme restriction of dietary carbohydrate is harmless, I was surprised to find that there is similarly little evidence to conclude that extreme restriction of carbohydrate is harmful. In fact, the consequential breakdown of fat as a result of carbohydrate restriction may be beneficial in the treatment of obesity. Perhaps it is time to carefully examine the issue of whether carbohydrate is an essential component of human nutrition.

Moderation is indeed a fine ideal but as pointed out, it can be subjective.

[NewdestinyX]

I don't eat hi carb. I tried super lo carb and it didn't change my numbers one bit. I started Lantus because my doctor agreed with me that super lo carb wasn't the best for everyone given my digestive issues I've shared with the forum. I can't digest many things well that would be required on a superlo carb diet. My 30 day average is now under 120.

[notme]

The OP wanted to know if others were having problems going very low carb. This question would obviously lead to a lot of different opinions. However, we have veered pretty far off topic and the arguments have begun. People will have different opinions on whether or not very low carb diet is optimum.

Please lets leave this topic open. The arguments are getting in the way of discussion. We are not always going to like the way someone writes something. However, as long as the statement is not personal I would like to leave the subject open.

[fgummett]

Originally Posted by NewdestinyX

I stand by my statement about cravings also being indicators of needs.

Perhaps you can clarify how/why the cravings diminish as we eat fewer refined/concentrated carbs -- at least in my experience and as reported here on DF by many others? If the craving signifies that these are essential to our body -- presumably like water or air -- then why doesn't the craving get stronger?

Please understand that even as a "super low-carber" I still eat plenty of carbs... mainly in green leafy vegetables... a fine source of many micro-nutrients. Taking into consideration my health outcomes, I just no longer see the need for, nor anymore enjoy, Danish pastries, or donuts, or muffins, cookies, goldfish snacks etc... although I may have a piece of birthday on a social occasion.

[NewdestinyX]

Originally Posted by fgummett

Perhaps you can clarify how/why the cravings diminish as we eat fewer refined/concentrated carbs -- at least in my experience and as reported here on DF by many others? If the craving signifies that these are essential to our body -- just like water or air -- then why doesn't the craving get stronger?

You learn to ignore it. Even 'priests' under celibacy guidelines eventually learn to 'ignore' something as natural as human relations.

Please understand that even as a "super low-carber" I still eat plenty of carbs... mainly in green leafy vegetables... a fine source of many micro-nutrients. Taking into consideration my health outcomes, I just no longer see the need for, nor anymore enjoy, Danish pastries, or donuts, or muffins, cookies, goldfish snacks etc... although I may have a piece of birthday on a social occasion.

My point was to say that 'cravings' aren't all bad. They can be indicators of 'body needs'. To ignore those needs can create other problems. 'Super Lo carbing' (Atkins), despite Bunbury's retort, is the 'new kid on the block'. In 20-30 more years we'll see if it was 'something good'. Already protein toxicity issues are appearing in studies as a result of focussing on only protein and fat as sources of food.

[bunbury]

Originally Posted by NewdestinyX

Right here Bunbury. The whole paragraph was snide and unacceptable in its
implication.

Oh dear. Higher-carb = high-carb ???

Frank's asked a good question about carb cravings and it's on topic: If the craving signifies that these are essential to our body -- presumably like water or air -- then why doesn't the craving get stronger?

Originally Posted by NewdestinyX

'Super Lo carbing' (Atkins), despite Bunbury's retort, is the 'new kid on the block'. In 20-30 more years we'll see if it was 'something good'. Already protein toxicity issues are appearing in studies as a result of focussing on only protein and fat as sources of food

It was a regular diabetes treatment in the decades before WWII and only went out with the appearance of the now increasingly discredited theories about low-fat diets.

[fgummett]

Originally Posted by NewdestinyX

You learn to ignore it. Even 'priests' under celibacy guidelines eventually learn to 'ignore' something as natural as human relations.

I'll bite my tongue on the priest comment but as for the rest I'll dust off an old analogy of mine... how long could you sit underwater at the deep end of a swimming pool and 'ignore' your craving for breath?

Originally Posted by NewdestinyX

My point was to say that 'cravings' aren't all bad. They can be indicators of 'body needs'. To ignore those needs can create other problems. 'Super Lo carbing' (Atkins), despite Bunbury's retort, is the 'new kid on the block'. In 20-30 more years we'll see if it was 'something good'. Already protein toxicity issues are appearing in studies as a result of focussing on only protein and fat as sources of food.

Atkins is simply a recent re-incarnation of a very old idea... look up William Banting in the 1800s, Leo Tolstoy's "Anna Karenina", Weston Price MS., D.D.S., F.A.G.D in the 1930's, T. L. Cleave, M.R.C.P. in the 1950's... or if you can, ask your Mother or Grandmother what dietary changes she would make to lose weight... switch to low-fat milk..? I don't think so... cut out the bread and potatoes more like.

I'd be very interested to read any research you have regarding "protein toxicity issues ... appearing in studies as a result of [focusing] on only protein and fat".

[notme]

I have tried desperately to keep this thread open for others to read and learn. This will be my last try. I edited posts that added content, but deleted personal attacks or statements as asked by all members that pm'd. I tried to keep it fair and did not change content. If content was changed, I deleted.

Please guys, can we keep this a good healthy discussion and leave out the snide comments?

[musique913]

I would prefer it remain open too, because I want to learn more about this topic.

My opinion so far about low-carbing it: I have been low carb two weeks. My blood sugars now average about 85. Before I went low carb, my blood sugars were anywhere from 230 to 120ish. So it works for me, even if it is really hard. I've come to realize that my body needs this right now, to get my bloods under control, and to make me feel better. To me, as much as I love unhealthy chinese food, ice cream, bread and other carbs, I also value my health immensely and want to keep my numbers under control. If I have to sacrifice a little to do that, so be it. I want to be healthy.

I'm doing just fine using veggies as my carbs, and keeping my food to just meat and veggies, now that I got past the first week. I thought I was going to die those first few days..lol

[ShottleBop]

Went to lunch at a Chinese restaurant today. Small restaurant, family owned. They had a sizzling beef plate. I explained what I need to them, and they made it without sauce--just salt. Beef, onion, celery, mushrooms, onions. It was delicious.

[jps]

Originally Posted by musique913

My opinion so far about low-carbing it: I have been low carb two weeks. My blood sugars now average about 85. Before I went low carb, my blood sugars were anywhere from 230 to 120ish. So it works for me, even if it is really hard. I've come to realize that my body needs this right now, to get my bloods under control, and to make me feel better. To me, as much as I love unhealthy chinese food, ice cream, bread and other carbs, I also value my health immensely and want to keep my numbers under control. If I have to sacrifice a little to do that, so be it. I want to be healthy.

I'm doing just fine using veggies as my carbs, and keeping my food to just meat and veggies, now that I got past the first week. I thought I was going to die those first few days..lol

And that is the key musique913. You've been able to significantly reduce your sugars. Congratulations on that. I don't care HOW a person does it, that has to be the driving force behind how we choose to manage T2 diabetes.

[bunbury]

Originally Posted by jps

And that is the key musique913. You've been able to significantly reduce your sugars. Congratulations on that. I don't care HOW a person does it, that has to be the driving force behind how we choose to manage T2 diabetes.

musique913, I put up a post a while back about the Rule of Small Numbers which got a bit lost. It's a rule that's worth reading up on because, IMO, it puts what you are doing into context. We can mix and match all sorts of quantities of meds, diet, excercise - whatever works is the desired outcome. If we are fine tuning small numbers of these things, as you are, the journey to successful control is much, much easier.

Good luck and keep up the good work an average of 85 in two weeks is a great achievement.

[fgummett]

Glad to hear of your progress Musique perhaps it is not for everyone but if you can stick with it, it now seems as if it will pay off in the long run. Some like to ease down the carbs but for me the better approach was to cut them out completely, establish a good baseline (and a good BG) and then gradually reintroduce some carbs... testing BG all the while. I find it surprising how my tastes have changed; such that things I may have seen as "treats" before are now quite disappointing.

If you do a web search on "dr bernstein's law of small numbers", often the first URL offered is an online (free) version of chapter 7 of his book "Diabetes Solution"