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cyberus

Whatever happened to YMMV?

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notme
From what I see in this forum the general attitude of people who eat normal amounts of carbs is "if low carbing works for you, great", while many low carbers try to promote the idea that carbs are bad. It's very annoying having to read that over and over again.

 

Do you think many low carbers are like this because, lke you said, they are challenged in social situations and stuff? If so, they should know better than doing the exact same thing to people who do fine with carbs.

 

Yes Grunch, it is a problem. I think along with Diabetes, many of us are afflicted with lastworditis. ;)

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Granny Shanny

Grunch? For type 1s such as you and Nancy, low carbing is obviously NOT warranted, since you can cover normal or even not-so-normal amounts of carb with insulin.

 

For those of us who are surviving so far without benefit of insulin injections, keeping BG within safe levels is a tightrope, and walking it usually requires some reduction in carbohydrate consumption.

 

I don't do extremely low carb, but when I can make substitutions that decrease by small amounts here and there, it enables me to maintain an average BG under 140, and as I understand it, most of us DO agree that BG higher than 140 is doing internal damage to our organs, correct?

 

I hardly believe any of us is afflicted with "lastworditis", but it would be nice if everyone could try harder to understand the huge chasm between insulin dependent and non-insulin dependent diabetes. This is the essence of the low-carb debacle.

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genie86333
I do think we could use more YMMV instead of "if I ate that many carbs, my head would explode!" or "if I ate that much fat, my arteries would instantly freeze!"

 

See...now I always see that as a YMMV comment - the poster didn't tell the person "You shouldn't eat that many carbs/that much fat!" They said what works/doesn't work for them - hinting maybe that it *could* be part of the problem but not putting the person down or telling them "you're doing it wrong!"

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Grunch
Grunch? For type 1s such as you and Nancy, low carbing is obviously NOT warranted, since you can cover normal or even not-so-normal amounts of carb with insulin.

 

For those of us who are surviving so far without benefit of insulin injections, keeping BG within safe levels is a tightrope, and walking it usually requires some reduction in carbohydrate consumption.

 

I don't do extremely low carb, but when I can make substitutions that decrease by small amounts here and there, it enables me to maintain an average BG under 140, and as I understand it, most of us DO agree that BG higher than 140 is doing internal damage to our organs, correct?

 

I hardly believe any of us is afflicted with "lastworditis", but it would be nice if everyone could try harder to understand the huge chasm between insulin dependent and non-insulin dependent diabetes. This is the essence of the low-carb debacle.

 

Yes, I completely agree with you and I understand the differences and reasons people have to follow each diet.

 

I never thought that low carbing was a bad thing, in fact I think it's basic common sense if a person has trouble with carbs. My only problem is when I see a lot of low carbers claiming that carbs are bad and that their diet is the right one for everyone (and try to back it up with bogus evolutionary claims and bad science). Basically what this thread is about, people who can't understand that everyone's different.

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Granny Shanny
Yes, I completely agree with you and I understand the differences and reasons people have to follow each diet.

 

I never thought that low carbing was a bad thing, in fact I think it's basic common sense if a person has trouble with carbs. My only problem is when I see a lot of low carbers claiming that carbs are bad and that their diet is the right one for everyone (and try to back it up with bogus evolutionary claims and bad science). Basically what this thread is about, people who can't understand that everyone's different.

 

I know the threads to which you're referring, and I readily admit I get lost in those discussions, so I don't follow closely.

 

But there are rants from the other corner also. Even to the degree that when one patient backpedaled from his/her diet regimen and moved to lower carbs for a few days, Then came back and essentially blamed us for the ill effects suffered.

 

Now I ask you? Did any of us force that member to change tactics when he already had a workable plan going and had indeed railed against low-carb prior to this? The power of suggestion must be a lot stronger than I ever believed it to be! I think people need to sit down and/or sleep on it before they come on here and blast away!

 

bothbarrels.gif

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AngelKitty
I think along with Diabetes, many of us are afflicted with lastworditis. ;)

 

:thumbsup: Spot on Nancy!

 

However, I would also like to add the following:

 

Apart from how I was feeling about myself and what was happening on the home front some of the members were getting a bit 'nasty' on the forum to each other and I had a couple have a swipe at me as well - "one senior member" told me on a post that I didn't have anything of any value to add or share on the forum - because I had a different opinion to him - and I felt absolutely shattered. So every time I even thought about logging on to DF these nasty words would go through my mind and I would walk away from the computer.

 

I was already feeling depressed and reading something like that which is a personal attack on a public forum made me feel even worse about myself.

 

I think people/members need to be more mindful of what they say and how they say it / phrase it, as not only is it nasty / hurtful it can be quite damaging as well.

 

"If you don't have anything nice to say, then don't say anything at all".

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fgummett
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Yes, I completely agree with you and I understand the differences and reasons people have to follow each diet.

 

I never thought that low carbing was a bad thing, in fact I think it's basic common sense if a person has trouble with carbs. My only problem is when I see a lot of low carbers claiming that carbs are bad and that their diet is the right one for everyone (and try to back it up with bogus evolutionary claims and bad science). Basically what this thread is about, people who can't understand that everyone's different.

It seems as if you are talking about my posts and this is not the first time you have made such accusations.

 

Once again I would ask you to actually back up these accusations with some evidence -- for example a quote from a post where I am "claiming that carbs are bad and that [my] diet is the right one for everyone".

 

If you feel the sources I quote are "bogus evolutionary claims and bad science" please refute them.

 

Is this an example of what you mean?

I'm certainly not saying that all carbs are bad for everyone just that too much of what is eaten Worldwide these days is refined/concentrated carbohydrates that we as a species are not adapted to process effectively. For me personally, the damage is already done and I have a very low tolerance now for ANY carbs but I still manage to eat plenty of broccoli and Romaine -- for example.

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Dis-N-Dat

As a newbie and self proclaimed low carber, I've never felt anything but support from this forum. All of you have been wonderful!

 

It seems to me where the wheels fall off is in political debates. Wouldn't it be amazing if we could be as supportive of individual views in that arena (that's where my biggest problem is, my head spins, it's very unattractive!)?

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Granny Shanny

I'm sure it would be delightful if people ever got to the place where they could calmly and objectively consider the positions of fellow citizens "across the aisle", but it ain't now, and it ain't gonna be soon. Deliberately promoting/provoking political discussion on this medical site would be a mistake in my opinion.

 

Many of us have already made our leanings known, including you & me, Georgia. I think that's enough. If I care to debate politics, there are tens of thousands of websites dedicated solely to such dialogue. I need this one to stay out of that arena so it can provide the truth, knowledge and support I need for treatment and management of my disorder. There is no "truth" in politics.

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Granny Shanny
Me too Granny, truce & peace?

 

I could agree to a truce in that I would not start something. What I cannot agree is that I would stay out of it if others post inappropriately, making exaggerated claims and/or trumpeting complete fabrications.

 

So maybe I'm saying that I wouldn't start something, but I might finish it (at least that's what I used to tell my kids . . .:D).

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fgummett
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Yes, I completely agree with you and I understand the differences and reasons people have to follow each diet.

 

I never thought that low carbing was a bad thing, in fact I think it's basic common sense if a person has trouble with carbs. My only problem is when I see a lot of low carbers claiming that carbs are bad and that their diet is the right one for everyone (and try to back it up with bogus evolutionary claims and bad science). Basically what this thread is about, people who can't understand that everyone's different.

Perhaps you could provide an example of where you see this happening?

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ShottleBop

At another diabetes forum I participate in, all political discussions are supposed to be conducted in a single subforum (similar to Chit Chat, here). Makes it easier to avoid them, if you're of a mind to.

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princesslinda

Political discussions always end up with a lot of conflict (nearly as much as low carb discussions;) ). We are all very passionate about what we believe, and when we are passionate about something, it's easy to try and convice others that our way of thinking is the best way.

 

These type posts should be in the chit-chat forum, but if you're like me, you like to read most all of the posts, so you see it, get riled up, add your 2 cents worth and here we go again.

 

I think the bottom line is self-censorship. If you know something you write is apt to cause problems, just don't write it, and bask in the glow of self-control. We're all adults, we should know how to act, and if someone else acts up, we don't necessarily have to jump in with both feet.

 

I know its not an easy thing to do....I remind myself of it many times throughout my day.

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antique-dave

I visit several different Diabetes forums and have seen good discussions degenerate into flames when someone starts condeming another persons choices.

 

I love the PASSION of a good discussion, but when someone starts implying that I'm going to become crippled and die a horrible death because I don't go as low as they do in food choices its getting out there.

 

As a new T2 in March 09 there are threads that if they were the first ones I saw I may have never come back to lurk let alone post. I believe in free speech and passion but I also expect some consideration to be shown in keeping it civil. If its all butterflies and teddy bears and rainbows I'm outa there too though.

 

Its not just an issue here, anywhere you find people its going to come up, what matters is how its addressed.

 

On another site I referenced one of these discussions in a reply, it was part of earlier posts in the same thread and the moderator censored my post. He told me I did nothing wrong and did not break any rules but felt that the topic had been discussed enough and so deleted my post. IMO that was wrong and why I'm spending more time in this forum lately.

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cyberus

Its nice to see my post has raised the *awareness* level a bit. :cool:

 

We're all (and I include myself in this) likely guilty of lastworditis or occasional lapses into "One True Way" mindlock ... we are all human after all. ;)

 

There is a place and time for a good flamefest, I just wanted to bring up that it seemed to me that the fires were spreading into forum zones the newbies (like I was a scant year ago) would be looking for support and information and I am/was concerned that instead of seeing support and information for everyone they would see yet another place where if you don't toe the line of a control method/diet type you get jumped or worse yet, a newbie asking a question, gets an answer of say "try lowering carbs" which is followed by a string of people flaming the low carber :eek:

 

Not the scenario I'd like to see this haven devolve into.

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Granny Shanny

As I understand it, rule #1 here is "test, test, test".

 

And rule #2 is "eat to your meter".

 

So that being said, there should be no need for the high/low carb debate anyhow, since if everyone tests & then eats to their meter, whatever the heck they eat is of no consequence to the rest of us, right? They can post their numbers, and if anyone ASKS how they arrived at such splendid (or horrible!) numbers, THEN is the time to detail the eating habits! :D :D :D

 

Regarding "lastworditis" . . . a beloved friend of mine from years back used to tell the conversation she & her husband would have: When the discussion got heated, he would then say "you KNOW you're going to have the last word, so would you please hurry up and HAVE it?!" 4_grin.gif

 

(okay, Shanny shutting up now . . . going for lunch of egg on toast . . . erm . . . low-carb waffle . . . ;))

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HelenM

I just checked, I joined in Feb 2006, so I've been a member a fair time. I 've learnt a huge amount on here, I needed to, I was very scared and I was living in a place where I hadn't the language to ask my doctors questions or understand the answers. The members helped me enormously and they played a big part in helping me get and so far maintain very good control.

What I liked about this forum was that I never felt that one particular way of managing things was dominant. There was a variety of opinions and information given to a question. This was one way it differed from some other forums and why I joined this one.

Whilst I'm quite happy to join in reasoned discussions, I've become far less willing to contribute recently. Its hard to define exactly what has changed but I feel that the ethos of the forum has altered. Obviously opinions and experience on dietary issues will vary. It is right that people express opinions. What is not right is to suggest one particular way is the only way, and that alternate views have no validity. It is particularly wrong when sarcasm and ridicule are used to do this. This seems to be happening more and more.

Maybe its because I don't read as many posts as before but I feel the balance of opinions has changed. I wonder if this is because people like myself visit less often (or leave entirely)because they feel less 'at home'.

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CarlyD

Sorry if this is at all wrong, but I think the YMMV is what makes this site valuable. I don't think this is a medical forum. People don't post their logs for doctors/Endos/DEs to see and reccomend changes. I think its value is as a place where people with a common denominator can come and share their experiences and concerns. I know I have never posted something that I could not "deal with" by myself, but instead posted issues other people mighthelp me deal with better. It is people's individual experiences that make this site valuable.

 

I don't think people should have to censor themselves much here. Obviously flaming is not cool, but having diologue is a great way to stay informed on issues. I had never heard of low carbing as a way to control your D before coming here, and I found it extremely valuable to read the posts where logical arguments about its pros and cons were stated. I also see a lot of posts that remind me I'm not alone in this. I read the one about not being able to sleep because they couldn't get enough carbs in their system and think "man, I was there last week! That does stink."

 

Sorry if I think of this wrong, but this forum really reminds me of diabetes camp. When I was younger we would go for a week to a place where it was normal to test, take shots, compare carbs, etc. If we made some insights into our conditions great! If not it was fine because the value of the camp was to compare shared experiences.

PS - I don't think there was ever a fist fight at camp ;)

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foxl

I have appreciated the openness here, and in particular the posting of supporting literature citations .. AND empirical evidence.

 

I have been flamed, and treated rudely and sarcastically, several times. And I am in the low-carb camp. I have done my fair share of lashing back at some of the people who have flamed or ridiculed me, no question. HOWEVER ... I still ahve learned far more from the openness here than I would have from having not been flamed or ridiculed. Better and more effective defneses, for one thing! ;)

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notme

Nicely said HelenM.

 

For those of us that have been on this site for a long time, I am sure you have noticed that things have definitely changed. Of course there were the battles early on, but the nit picking and word games have increased and it has gotten way beyond healthy dialogue and debate.

 

I have been a member here since 2003 and I have watched this great forum evolve. I think I was member number four hundred and something. We now have over 25,000 members so things are bound to change. Some of the changes have been great for our site, but some of them have been negative. What we should not allow to change is manners and personal posting filters. We all get fired up about something from time to time, but that is a good time to grab the filter or just say your peace and then let others have their say. If you speak your mind in a clear concise way, you should not have to come back and repeat yourself or challenge other people's posts. Your post should stand on its merits.

 

The inter-net is a funny place. Kind of like driving a car. People feel at ease with the anonymity of the computer keyboard or in a car. But for some reason, in both places, hot tempers flare and manners get tossed aside. If we want a successful site, we need to try and stop that from happening. Losing long time members, with all they have to share with our new members would be very sad. People like you, HelenM would be missed. People come and go, but losing people because of something someone says or the way we treat each other would be a crime.

 

Every member we have on this site and every new member that joins our site has something to offer and is, in my opinion, very valuable. I think the only thing that everyone is asking here is to let everyone speak without fear of ridicule or being attacked because there is a difference of opinion. We are a "Diabetes Forum". We are also one large family and many of us are friends. Lets remember to hit the delete key if you are not certain your post won't sound angry or accusatory. If you have a question about a post someone makes, ask for clarification and keep it civil. If you have something you want to say to an individual or you have a beef with someone, take it private.

 

This too shall pass. We have a good site and I know it will continue to grow. Please folks, use your filters.

 

Thank you Cyberus for starting this thread. Much of this needed to be said.

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Jae

Thank You Cyberus

I am one who will just walk away when a post gets out of line so to speak. My saying is "I ain't got No Horse in that Race" <sorry I am from Texas the sling tells on me>

 

This site has helped me so very much in so many ways. But most of all it has showed me that D is not a one size fits all kind of thing. When I came here all I knew was I was Diabetic sadly I didn't even know I was a type 2. The doctor said don't eat potato, rice, bread take 2 of these a day and come back in 6 months.

 

This forum is a blessing for education of this disease. But when it becomes a one up on someone else we all lose. We all have something to share. Even if it is only a little kindness to someone who is scared at that minute. We all have something to learn as well.

Thank YOU!!

Jae

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cyberus

Thank you Cyberus for starting this thread. Much of this needed to be said.

 

Glad to be of service ... just "paying ahead" to make sure the next group of people like me will find the help, support, and clean information sources that I did. :D

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