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cyberus

Whatever happened to YMMV?

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Subby
If you speak your mind in a clear concise way, you should not have to come back and repeat yourself or challenge other people's posts. Your post should stand on its merits.

 

And, although it is hard to do, and I have failed miserably at times myself, there is something that I have found is worth striving for. To remember this: even if someone disagrees wtih your post after the fact - even if a whole lot of people agree with that person, it does not mean that they are automatically "right". Truth is what it is - whether it's factual, personal experience, whatever facet of reality it is. It's should not be a popularity contest or a group of opposing "camps" with contentious issues such as "low carbing" (I put it in brackets because I think it is waaaay overplayed that there is "low carbing" camp and "high carbing" camp).

 

It's not fun to be unpopular or to say something that seems to be contrary to public opinion even of respected other members. It is extremely hard when someone takes a "hard line" and comes back again and again to debate and nitpick and prove their point. But if there is a culture of respect and sharing, not a culture of domination of one paradigm and popular consensus, then what you get is a conversation or a variety of different ideas and approaches to consider.

 

This breaks down when people will not let go of the position they have as the authoritive or dominant position and come back again and again (more than twice, I think, is where it gets out of hand) to assert domination through whatever tactic they have at hand - including re-interpreting their own words, casting what aspertions upon the "opponent", trying to gain the moral upperhand or the popular debate, on unrelated terms, etc etc.

 

If that happens the entire "culture" is broken and people are either stuck in a bitter struggle with this domination, or leave.

 

I have as of late, found the level of this behavior and the quality of the debate suggesting a redefinition of this site on my mind from an extraordinary one, to just another flingfest forum, a certain threshold like bad shows on a tv channel making me realise a channel is not worth watching. It's very sad.

 

It is also worth saying that this way of putting another person down can be done in an aggressive or attacking way, a sarcastic or superior way - or a "nice" way. Which is just as bad, if not worse. I caution everyone to beware of the "silver tongue" as a way to get around expectations that things remain civil. Just because something is stated in an acceptable tone does not mean it can be any less demeaning or argumentative. I encourage anyone to report these posts and explain how you see them as troublesome or demeaning, to the mods.

 

Lets remember to hit the delete key if you are not certain your post won't sound angry or accusatory. If you have a question about a post someone makes, ask for clarification and keep it civil. If you have something you want to say to an individual or you have a beef with someone, take it private.

 

I think the mods attitude and actions here as quoted, are what makes this place great. To do that without overly interfering is part of the greatness. (Like someone mentioned happened at another forum earlier - that's happened to me and it's awful).

 

I want to say something here that is not presented for debate or for people to reach a consensus. My opinion is strong but I recognise it as opinion only, I speak for no others with this. I don't mention it lightly. I just want to air it as people consider the tendency for trouble to occur and ruin a lot of what is good here.

 

I feel there are people here that do not really learn their lesson to be truly, respectfully civil - and use the tolerant environment to their advantage - run back for another bit of the pie, so to speak. I think some people like to ignore the ideas of easing off the debate, and will abuse that time and again.

 

I think people should be in a situation they don't get away with this as much and should learn from their lessons a little more. I believe the idea of firm action could be something that might help them remember. Once someone is being a repeating problem, at the center of destructive controversial threads, and shows the tendency over a few weeks or months (ie, they can't redeem by behaving for a few days until nicer people forgive - they need to really change their ways), I believe they should be at risk of some kind of membership suspension - for at least a week - so they can think about the consequences of their actions in peace. More than that I do not know. People of course get banned - and they do - maybe there should be a suspension in there.

 

I think I can speak for many that we all wish everything was beautifully organic, that everyone got along or things stayed at a level they don't affect the rest of the people. I am personally saying I don't think that can occur without help - and I applaud the actions the mods do take, it would be chaos without, this would not exist. I have no wish to make life harder for the mods with this kind of idea - trying to decide on a suspension, etc. I see it as the equivalent of taking someone out of the room and told to relax before they come back for the sake of the forum - not as a "punishment". The idea of a term of suspension or SOMETHING similar might just get some of those who think they are exempt from thinking twice about reactive posts, exempt from holding back from aggression, permitted repeated offenses just skirting the boundary of acceptable, to realise that they really need to clean their act up or go play their games elsewhere.

 

I would recently, normally, either not post or pick over the above post to make it more "acceptable" and mainstream anticipating the tendency here for people to get on a bandwagon of "no, we don't need things like that here, we're all adults, Subby you are being militant/extreme/demeaning" or the like. Well, I'm over that, if people automatically bridle against it, and if there is a popular movement to push my opinion into a corner as if it's some kind of threat to the common consensus, if there are taking of my words or sentences in isolation to break down my overall intent, then that would be another reason for me to shrug and remember why I don't spend nearly as much time here anymore.

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zoelula
From what I see in this forum the general attitude of people who eat normal amounts of carbs is "if low carbing works for you, great", while many low carbers try to promote the idea that carbs are bad. It's very annoying having to read that over and over again.

 

Do you think many low carbers are like this because, lke you said, they are challenged in social situations and stuff? If so, they should know better than doing the exact same thing to people who do fine with carbs.

 

That was actually my experience as well. When I first signed on to this board I was lost and confused and just beginning to recognize I was going to have to make drastic changes in my diabetes care. I was also working on un-mis-diagnosing myself (new verb) and asked some question like "I am having a lot of trouble managing my diabetes and wonder if something else isn't at work". I immediately got jumped on about how many carbs did I eat, etc. While reducing carb intake was definitely in my future I wasn't there yet but most of all was taken aback by the attitude. I've never quite outgrown being a rebel and so if somebody seems to be pushing something as "The One True Way" I rebel even if I think it might ultimately be useful info for me.

 

On the other paw, I think it's important to realize that diabetes management is not only very personal for us all, but at times very emotional. When we find something that works we want to tell the world. If we've had a bad experience with highs or lows we are scared and cling to any life raft that drifts by. Sometimes we are so desperate for the life raft we push others aside as we grasp. Looks rude, feels rude (who wants to be left to drown?) but is also understandable. I am only a few short months into getting a handle on this diabetes thing, so I know sometimes I sound rigid and feel that way even to myself. Not always avoidable, but if we can try and remember to temper our strong beliefs with kindness and tolerance it will go a long way. I also think that people are a lot more likely to hear something if it is gently put out there. Thanks for the thread.

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Granny Shanny

Good to see you back, Subby. Your posts are always well thought out.

 

And you make an extremely salient point: There are people who are accustomed to being the leader of the pack; dominating their environment whether it be cyberspace or their own household. So whether or not they have any experience, knowledge or insight into any given subject, they are apt to take the floor and go on roughshod from there, just because their normal mindset is that they are better educated or more intelligent than the rest of us, regardless of the issue.

 

When people come aboard with instructions on how everybody should manage, but no evidence that they're actually living the life we live, then I start taking their words with a grain of salt. I've lived long enough to be comfortable in my own skin, and to recognize a phony quite a ways off. People who are just here to tell us something they read somewhere ELSE, are doing us no favors. Most of us have already been to those "somewhere else's", and read it before.

 

We've mentioned many times the lack of insight in our medical professionals . . . and it's worth repeating: Unless someone is walking in OUR shoes, they really don't have a clue, and that goes for doctors, dieticians & all the others who get paid for their services, as well as the free advice we get from family/friends/forums. There are too many people walking around running their mouths (and keyboards) who know nothing about the many difference types of diabetes, let alone the many methods of treating it, and the huge chasm in managing methods for patients who use insulin and those who do not.

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lorilei
Yes Grunch, it is a problem. I think along with Diabetes, many of us are afflicted with lastworditis. ;)

 

love it! glad i dodged the debates..:D

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lorilei
Splat! (the sound of a good idea hittin someone in the forehead and failing to be absorbed)

 

lol...another good one...

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slipperyelm

I haven't been as consistent about daily reading and posting as I used to be. But I thought something big had happened in the forums when the other day I opened a thread in the Carbohydrates and Calories forum. I'm guessing that one was one of those that you had in mind with this post. Yiiiiii. Kind of mean. But to tell the truth, it was also kind of BORING to read people trying to vanquish the other like that. So, I did not read all the way through it. I'm back now after a few more days and hope I'm not going to keep running into that.

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cyberus
I haven't been as consistent about daily reading and posting as I used to be. But I thought something big had happened in the forums when the other day I opened a thread in the Carbohydrates and Calories forum. I'm guessing that one was one of those that you had in mind with this post. Yiiiiii. Kind of mean. But to tell the truth, it was also kind of BORING to read people trying to vanquish the other like that. So, I did not read all the way through it. I'm back now after a few more days and hope I'm not going to keep running into that.

 

I don't know that that was the source, the trigger maybe. :confused:

 

However like I said in my OP it just seemed like there is/was a general drift away from YMMV/hey everyones different try this see how it works to One True Way/this is the only right way etc etc ad nauseum.

 

I just wanted to (and I think it worked :cool: ) "shine a light" into the dark corners and maybe alert people (not just mods) to what I believed was happening so maybe people would take a step back from taking DF to a place I don't think any of us want to go with it.

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notreally
As I understand it, rule #1 here is "test, test, test".

 

And rule #2 is "eat to your meter".

 

So that being said, there should be no need for the high/low carb debate anyhow, since if everyone tests & then eats to their meter, whatever the heck they eat is of no consequence to the rest of us, right? They can post their numbers, and if anyone ASKS how they arrived at such splendid (or horrible!) numbers, THEN is the time to detail the eating habits! :D :D :D

 

Regarding "lastworditis" . . . a beloved friend of mine from years back used to tell the conversation she & her husband would have: When the discussion got heated, he would then say "you KNOW you're going to have the last word, so would you please hurry up and HAVE it?!" 4_grin.gif

 

(okay, Shanny shutting up now . . . going for lunch of egg on toast . . . erm . . . low-carb waffle . . . ;))

 

 

Exactly on the first two rules. I follow them myself. I will try other peoples suggestions, but I monitor to see if it works for me. If it doesn't I don't think the other person was a liar or was trying to hurt me. Their body reacted differently than mine. I can only control MY body,

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slipperyelm

For type 2s, I personally like the advise to "test, test, test" and to "eat to your meter," but I concede that it is not really universal advice. It certainly is not the advice most diabetes educators give. It is not yet the advice most doctors seem to give. It is not the advice everyone on these forums give.

 

Some people think that there are other issues, other important nutritional factors that must be taken into consideration even at the cost of slightly higher BGs. Some think that it is possible for eating to your meter to cause you to neglect certain food molecules (to be general) if you eat with keeping you BG under certain numbers as your most important goal.

 

Since "test, test test; eat to your meter" are not universally applauded, even those contain the possibility to stimulate distasteful disagreement.

 

I really wish I had a forum buddy who would let me know when I am skating too close to the edge. I try to be gentle, but from responses I've sometimes gotten I know that it does not always come off that way. This morning, I have contemplated making some replies within a certain thread, but I have held back hoping that other people who are some how friendlier and more supportive will reply. In real life I am a social dork. I marvel at people who are boatloads smoother than I and able to make everyone comfortable and happy. Heck, I've benefited from folks like that, so I sure understand how much better and how needed they are....I think we do have some people in this forum who are just "magic" in their kind personalities, including some who arrived here after I did. Thank goodness for those people, and, as ever, thank goodness for this forum.

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princesslinda

Sometimes it may not be the person posting that has the problem, rather it may be the person reading said post. I know that if i'm in a bad mood or not feeling well, I'm more sensitive to things than I would be on a "normal" day....and more things "set me off." Perhaps others are that way as well.

 

Elm, I've not seen any of your posts that I would consider rude or "skating too close to the edge." Your comments are always informative and I'd hate for you not to join in.

 

Overall, I find it much easier to communicate face-to-face,seeing all the facial expressions and hearing the verbal nuances. Print is difficult sometimes.

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