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ODAR

:( So coconut oil may be

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RichieRich1000
Ok so I plug all the figures in from yesterday which were: fats:167.9 Protein 95.1 and carbs 33.7 - the ration came out at 2.2 - what does this mean? do I have to reduce more protein and carbs to burn the body fat?

 

That's awesome Odar! Just like that. Don't forget to eat plenty of low-carb veges for the vitamins, minerals, enzymes etc. (i.e. pretty much all veges except beetroot, corn, parsnip and potatoes. Getting your macronutrient ratio is key to controlling your bg but you also want to feed your body nutrient-dense food so it can heal.

 

Remember too that losing body fat is a side-benefit, not the primary objective here. Focus more on improving bg and gaining health.

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samorgan
Hi Seagal, I have put the spreadsheet in the cloud so it can now be accessed by anyone with a web browser - you don't need excel installed. Look here: Ketogenic Ratio Calculator.xlsx - Microsoft Excel Web App

Don't worry if you don't know how to use a spreadsheet - it's really very easy to use. Here's how:

1. At the top, click 'Edit in Browser'

 

2. Make sure you are on the main tab - at the bottom, "Ketogenic Ratio Calculator" should be selected.

 

3. There are 3 fields in blue and one in beige. Enter your protein, fat and carbs into the 3 blue fields. Grams, ounces - it doesn't matter. Wait about 5-10 sec for the web sheet to update (you don't have this wait if you download and use Excel)

 

4. Don't change the contents of the beige field! It contains the formula and if you change it, the sheet will be broken!

 

5. Read your Ketogenic Ratio from the beige field. As Salim has said, aim for 2 or more. If you maintain that, your bg will be much improved. Experiment to find out what works for you.

 

Later, (or now) take a look at the second and third tabs. They show you the effect of changing the different macronutrients (protein, carb, fat) while keeping the others constant. I think the third tab clearly shows why some people don't get the results they hope for from a low-carb diet - they just need to drop the protein too. Yes that does mean eating more fat but contrary to popular belief, healthy fats (like the much vaunted organic coconut oil) are in no way detrimental to blood lipids, heart, brain etc. In fact, quite the opposite. But I know most of you here know this already.

 

The formula in this spreadsheet is the same as the one described by Salim below.

 

Thank you very much for posting that and making this so accessible for everyone. It is SO nice to be on a forum where you are not treated like a malignant alien any time you say the things you have mentioned in your message. More and more, I believe that lipophobia - induced by bogus science and PR campaigns - is the PRIMARY villain in the diabetes epidemic. Not just for causing increased carb consumption and decreased fat consumption but more importantly pushing people to the franken-fats like hydrogenated vegetable oils. These oils can actually cause fatty acid deficiencies. This is almost never taken into consideration when people plot changes in the three macronutrients over time.

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RichieRich1000
Thank you very much for posting that and making this so accessible for everyone. It is SO nice to be on a forum where you are not treated like a malignant alien any time you say the things you have mentioned in your message. More and more, I believe that lipophobia - induced by bogus science and PR campaigns - is the PRIMARY villain in the diabetes epidemic. Not just for causing increased carb consumption and decreased fat consumption but more importantly pushing people to the franken-fats like hydrogenated vegetable oils. These oils can actually cause fatty acid deficiencies. This is almost never taken into consideration when people plot changes in the three macronutrients over time.

 

I couldn't agree more Salim. And not just the diabetes epidemic but also the cardiovascular disease and obesity epidemics... but that's another story.

 

Thanks for mentioning the frankenfats. It is absolutely key that the fats you eat are not the trans-fats that have been proven to actually cause cancer and heart-disease (and maybe contribute to T2), but natural fats. Same goes for the sneaky new inter-esterified fats that are now being used to avoid trans-fat labelling - they just don't occur in nature and your body simply doesn't know how to process them.

 

Back to the ketogenic ratio - it can't hurt to try for 2-4 weeks so why not give it a shot? You'll know from your morning bg if it works or not...

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ODAR
That's awesome Odar! Just like that. Don't forget to eat plenty of low-carb veges for the vitamins, minerals, enzymes etc. (i.e. pretty much all veges except beetroot, corn, parsnip and potatoes. Getting your macronutrient ratio is key to controlling your bg but you also want to feed your body nutrient-dense food so it can heal.

 

Remember too that losing body fat is a side-benefit, not the primary objective here. Focus more on improving bg and gaining health.

 

Hi RichieRich,

 

Just another question from a complete noob - but in the second tab - the lines were parallel to the following values : Fats 0.2, Protein 4.5 and Carb 3.5 what does this mean? and in the third tab the protein starts from 4.5 and graduates down to 4.4 and the horizontal value of 2... I have no idea how to read this information - can you please let me know what it all means?

 

Also I plugged my figures in for yesterday came up with a 2.7 ratio - and wake bloods this morning was 88.20 ( which is what I wanted :)

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RichieRich1000
Hi RichieRich,

 

Just another question from a complete noob - but in the second tab - the lines were parallel to the following values : Fats 0.2, Protein 4.5 and Carb 3.5 what does this mean? and in the third tab the protein starts from 4.5 and graduates down to 4.4 and the horizontal value of 2... I have no idea how to read this information - can you please let me know what it all means?

 

Also I plugged my figures in for yesterday came up with a 2.7 ratio - and wake bloods this morning was 88.20 ( which is what I wanted :)

 

Woo hoo!

 

Sure. On tab 2, the chart shows the change in ketogenic ratio (KR) as you change each of the macro nutrients while keeping the others constant. For example, looking at the green line, the legend to the right says that is for carbs. The cross over point in the middle is 1 part protein, 1 part fat and 1 part carbs. This is a KR of 0.9 (too low for our purposes).

 

If you keep the protein and fat as 1 part each and vary the amount of carbs, you get the green line. So when carbs are at 0.5 parts while fat and protein are kept at one, you get a KR of 1.3. When carbs are reduced to only 0.1 part (10%), the KR goes to 2 (much better). If you eat high carb with 2 parts carb to 1 of fat and protein, you get a kr of 0.5 (very low).

 

The blue line represents the change of KR if you vary the amount of protein but keep the carbs and fat both at 1 part each. You can see it is very flat. This mean is has very little effect on the KR at all. So changing your protein levels when eating substantial amounts of carbs has little effect - the carbs swamp any effect of the change in protein. You will see on tab 3 that this is different when eating low-carb. I'll come back to this.

 

The red line is the change of KR if you vary the amount of fat in your diet. You can see it has a strong effect on KR too, though not as marked as lowering carbs. Higher fat intake, higher KR which means easier regulation of bg.

 

Clearly, carbs have the biggest effect on KR - low is good. Then fat, higher is better. And least of all protein where lower is better but you don't want too low protein as your body needs it to rebuild.

 

Good so far?

 

Moving on to tab 3. This shows the effect of varying protein on KR with a low-carb diet. Here I have set fat at 1 part, carbs at 0.1 part and varied the protein between 0 and 2 parts. In the low carb scenario, you can see that protein has a really big effect on your KR. If you have too much protein, you completely counter the benefit of the low-carb. See when the protein is set to 2 parts? The KR goes down to 1.4. With protein down to 0.5 parts, KR is a much more desirable 2.9.

 

The point of this chart is to show graphically that protein intake needs to be not too high if you want to get the benefit of eating low-carb.

 

Now here is the key. Every thing we eat is either protein, carb, fat, or water (plus lots of micronutrients which make up very little of the actual mass of food). Commonly today, lot's of people are eating low-carb and low-fat. Well you gotta eat something so what this amounts to is eating high protein which you can see here is not gonna work for diabetes. The fat-police have got everyone so afraid of fat, they can't see the woods for the trees. The say you need to eat low-fat because if you have diabetes you are at risk of heart disease. But if you eat low-fat, you'll always have diabetes which is the cause of the heart disease risk! Talk about catch 22! It's got it's own internal logic but is completely missing the point.

 

The combination that will work is low-carb, moderate protein, and as much fat as you need to be satisfied. But remember, make it all real food so you also get all those crucial micronutrients.

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Todd G.

This has been a great thread. I've read all the Atkins books and many of the other low carb books, but I think I learned more here than in all of them combined. Now I understand why Atkins suggested a short term diet of cream cheese(3.3KGR) and macadamia nuts for people having difficulty getting into ketosis. Also, now I understand why my snacks of cream cheese and salami(~2.6KGR) seem to help me lose weight. I'm going to run everything through this calculator for the foreseeable future. Thanks!

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ODAR

Haha Yes Todd - I've got packets of cream cheese in my fridge too - and I use it with my cauliflower! Also a must have in my house is the Famouse VCO - just can't survive without it it seems:) I too am using the calculator each day just to get an idea on how small my portions of protein should really be in comparison to my fat consumption... Hmm now for some more recipes that is fat, low carb, medium protein!

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ZoraP

I agree that this has been an excellent thread. I've downloaded both spreadsheets and will experiment a bit with them. I'm also still finding my way in terms of increasing fat and decreasing protein -- it takes completely rethinking meal planning and turning what used to look "normal" upside down. (Anyone here ever follow the old "1/4 of your plate meat, 1/4 grain, 1/2 veggie" prescription back before diabetes? I used to, and fairly religiously, because I was trying to "eat healthy!" But if those were starchy veggies just think how many carbs I was eating, plus I was -- of course -- avoiding fat and just using oils or low-fat dairy sparingly! At least I always preferred olive oil....)

 

On thing I like to do to increase fat in my meals is to make tossed salads with a generous amount of feta cheese and/or avocado, chopped walnuts, or hard-boiled eggs. Of course olive or pumpkin seed oil and vinegar for dressing. Tasty, fatty, and not too high in protein. I'll have to calculate the ratios and see how close I've been coming with these combos.

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Todd G.

Talk about turning the world upside down, on this diet it seems that Vienna Sausages(2.8kgr) are good for you! SPAM too! OMG! Looks like I'll be eating SPAM and cheese omelets every day now.

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samorgan

Now, maybe we can lobby fitday.com to add the KR calculation to each line and to the totals/chart at the bottom instead of having to use our own spreadsheets as a second step. Also, I'm thinking of collecting calculations of individual foods to make selection easier. Let's see if there are any suprises:

 

Cashews: 1.13

Peanuts: 1.64

Almonds: 1.67

Fried egg: 1.88

Avocado: 1.3 (but 3.3 if you subtract the fiber from the total carbs which FitDay doesn't do!)

 

Hmm. Perhaps we need to suggest they do the fiber subtraction, too.

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Seagal

When I create a custom food in fitday, I subtract the fiber (either all or half)and then whenever I eat that particular item (avocado, psyllium, etc.) the fiber has already been subtracted. In the charts they provide, you can see the fiber as a percentage.

 

I agree Salim, your proposal would be a wonderful addition to fitday and as far as the fiber question is concerned, it has been proposed on the fitday forum, but to no avail so far. I use the free fitday, so don't know if the paid version has a fiber option.

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Abra

If it's not too much of a digression, I'd like to say something about the fiber question. I've noticed over time that the Type 1s here don't seem to subtract fiber when calculating insulin doses. To me that means that subtracting fiber really isn't appropriate, and so I don't do it at all any more. I just look at the carb total as the real thing, with the possible exception of flax meal and shirataki noodles, which are pretty much indigestible. So for the KR, is anybody taking fiber into account, and if so, how?

 

Also, I find it hard to reduce protein to something as low as 4 oz. I know that for some people high fat = satiety, but for me there's also a volume thing going on, and small high fat portions don't really satisfy me. Any suggestions about this?

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Seagal

Well, don't know about the others, but when I enter the food into fitday, I put the total numbers of the fat, protein & carbs into the spreadsheet (for each meal). Since, as I mentioned in my previous post, I have created a custom food and if I thought appropriate, would have deducted the fiber, it isn't an issue. When I enter the total numbers for the day, I put the amounts into a separate column on my keto spreadsheet, so I have totals for breakfast, lunch, dinner and the combination of all three. I have been doing this since last May and have an accurate compilation of daily macronutrients and keto ratio.

 

Any of that make sense?

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Todd G.

You may have seen this, but I thought it was interesting. You mouse over pyramid until caloric ratios desired are found, then it will give you a list of foods that closely matches your input parameters.

 

Search by Caloric Ratio or Macronutrient Distribution - NutritionData.com

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ODAR

Hi Todd - most of those foods are pre-packaged right? or maybe "Fast Foods" ?

 

If it is you have to watch out for Trans Fat which is not the same deal as saturated fat :)

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samorgan
Hi Todd - most of those foods are pre-packaged right? or maybe "Fast Foods" ?

 

If it is you have to watch out for Trans Fat which is not the same deal as saturated fat :)

 

 

Good catch! FrankenFats should probably be SUBTRACTED from your fat balance. They are not food!

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pat1203

My endo has me on a number of supplements and I wonder if I should time my T. of CO in order not to make them even less absorbable? I seem to have trouble absorbing them, so she is having me take IV vits and minerals.

 

Any thoughts?

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Todd G.

Here's the nutritional label from SPAM Low Sodium: #

 

Serving Size:

56g

Servings per Container:

varies

 

#

Amount Per Serving

 

Calories:

180

 

#

 

Total Fat:

16g

Saturated Fat:

6g

Cholesterol:

40mg

Sodium:

580mg

Total Carbs:

1g

Fiber:

0g

Sugars:

0g

Protein:

7g

 

Looks pretty good to me with a KGR of 2.76. There were no unusual fats listed on the ingredients label, but Ill watch out for those in other foods for sure.

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