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WantHealth

DO NOT WANT A BIG DEBATE: but wondering why carbohydrates cause such strong emotions?

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samorgan
You are not 100% wrong, samorgan. If you went to the pumpers forum and started "ridiculing" someone for not controlling their diabetes with injection then you would be asked to refrain. However, if you went to the pumpers forum and asked why people prefer the pump or said that you were not using a pump because you are finding that injections worked better for you, then you are in the right forum and a discussion on the subject should be allowed in that forum.

 

In the low carb forum, it is a place to discuss the pro's and con's of a low carb life choice without ridicule. It isn't just a place for people who have adopted this lifestyle, but a place to discuss both sides of the issue. The problems start when "ridicule", "judgement" and arguments ensue.

 

Diabetes Forums is a place to discuss, support and befriend others that are in the same situation. We are not a debate forum nor are we a forum of people who outshout people who have questions. We post new things that we discover and post articles that we come across that we think are worthy of posting. Lets keep it that way. Constantly finding sources that support your own theory becomes old after one or two. Then we need to let others have a voice and post what they believe in a friendly and supportive manner. What we don't need is a group of people from any side of a lifestyle choice pouncing on every thread and making posters feel like they are uneducated or have not yet found the "real truth" in caring for their diabetes. We are a diverse group of people struggling with the same (or almost the same) problem. There will be many different conclusions to this problem. One group or person will not be right.

 

Exactly! And, if you read through the entire thread in question, it is abundantly clear exactly who did this:

 

"pouncing on every thread and making posters feel like they are uneducated or have not yet found the "real truth" in caring for their diabetes"

 

Is it not so that the thread rules are pretty clear that the thread is intended for the two groups I mentioned (those who practice low-carb and those who sincerely want to LEARN about it) and that the trouble only started when some people posted who were not in either of those categories? I'm not applying this to DF as a whole, only to this particular thread which has a particular set of standards, clearly enunciated in its rules.

 

I heartily endorse the letter and spirit of the original rules and believe they could have been used to avoid this entire "situation".

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samorgan

I have no quarrel with you, Clebo and think you have a good heart. As I recall, your signature used to include the phrase: "No low-carb here!" right before "Balance is the key". I guess I still remembered that even though apparently you have removed it.

 

 

I thought I was a low carber, Can someone tell me if I belong here or not? If you say I don't belong here, I will go away. but I thought I qualified. It begs to ask what is a low carber? Who qualifies to be here.? In my eyes I low carb, but don't HF do I still belong?

I see your point Salim and I also understood why Mia posted here and did Not understand why her thread was closed here.She was in her own "safe " place...If I can't post here(because I'm not considered a low carber, although I thought I was), then where do I Go?(Don't answer that please!!)

 

If I have wrongfully invaded your space and safe place, I am sorry and will go somewhere else..My apologies..I was answering the thread with my response, and I didn't read the rules beforehand. I also noted(when rereading your post you did mention LC/HF...I thought it was just a low carb forum(regardless how much fat you consume), but when HF came up, then, that eliminated me. ...I am in the wrong place. I won't post here anymore and I'm sorry Folks... You are right... Life is Good..Clebo

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clebo

Yea Salim, That was posted as a tryanical, defiant newbie who asked for help, was given advice and help, but didn't follow it long enough and needed something other than himself to blame.I felt like a failure.I was jealous, resentful, and envious everyone else was doing so well...

 

It's been a year, since I joined the Forum.I finally worked out my own issues, came to accept myself and my own Lifestyle as is. I may not have 5.5 or below A1c, but if I stay in the 5% club I'm happy. My own personal standards.

 

I removed my defiant "sig" because I know low carbing does work... I am happy with more carbs and my numbers... and my Lifestyle works for me..just want others to learn all of their options and make their own choice.

 

I'm sorry I may be breaking rules , but just wanted you to know where I'm coming from. I will try really ,really hard to think first and make sure I qualify to post in other parts of the Forum..Life is Good..Clebo

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samorgan

I hope I speak for others when I say that I am happy for you, too!

 

Yea Salim, That was posted as a tryanical, defiant newbie who asked for help, was given advice and help, but didn't follow it long enough and needed something other than himself to blame.I felt like a failure.I was jealous, resentful, and envious everyone else was doing so well...

 

It's been a year, since I joined the Forum.I finally worked out my own issues, came to accept myself and my own Lifestyle as is. I may not have 5.5 or below A1c, but if I stay in the 5% club I'm happy. My own personal standards.

 

I removed my defiant "sig" because I know low carbing does work... I am happy with more carbs and my numbers... and my Lifestyle works for me..just want others to learn all of their options and make their own choice.

 

I'm sorry I may be breaking rules , but just wanted you to know where I'm coming from. I will try really ,really hard to think first and make sure I qualify to post in other parts of the Forum..Life is Good..Clebo

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WantHealth

Just wanted to say, since I'm the OP, that I had no intention of causing forum members to (once again) become argumentative with each other.

 

But this is exactly what I have been experiencing on "the outside" among non-diabetics and the general public -- there is a palpable and hysterical view that low-carbing is going to kill me and it's a crazy fad diet.

 

I have found that there is NOT the same kind of judgments made for someone who is...say...vegetarian or macrobiotic or doing an extremely low fat diet or fasting and juicing. So many other diets seems acceptable while low-carbing feels (at least for me) ridiculed. Maybe it IS the whole green movement, making eating animals and animal products sacrilege or the fact that the grain/carb industry is HUGE business and has us utterly brainwashed about whole grains and fruit. I mean, really, General Mills and so many companies make all their money on processed carbs because they are incredibly cheap and the profit margins are enormous.

 

The sole purpose of posting this question was to ponder why there seems to be such emotional hysteria about a low carb - high protein - high fat diet. I didn't want anyone on this forum to feel that they needed to discuss their carb intake or defend it in any way.

 

I simply find the emotionally charged atmosphere curious... to the point that I may as well start telling people I'm a vampire and live on blood and see how that goes. :)

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samorgan

My experience definitely matches yours and it is indeed perplexing sometimes. I think you have pretty much hit it on the head with every one of your speculations as to the reason.

 

The really ironic thing is that this is no fad diet at all. There are entire populations both ancient and in a few cases currently who live like this - and interestingly are just about 100% free of the "diseases of civilization" when they do. On the other hand, every single other diet you mentioned is indeed a "fad" diet with no more than a few decades of history.

 

LC/HF was advocated and practiced 150 years ago in England and Scandanavia. It was used to treat diabetes 100 years ago prior to the discovery of insulin. A more restricted version was used also since 100 years ago to successfully treat childhood epilepsy. It has recently had a resurgence where pharmaceuticals have failed. More recently, when a similar diet was advocated yet again and popularized by Dr. Atkins literally millions of people engaged in it for various lengths of time. In spite of legions (and millions) looking to discredit it, no evidence of any harmful effects has ever turned up.

 

Low-fat diets are not only a very recent fat but one with a miserable track record.

 

Plant-based diets of course have populations who have lived that way for eons, but their superiority is a myth. You can look at Denise Minger's excellent analyses of the China Study (one of the largest datasets EVER in this regard) for some very clear information on this.

 

CSPI with their propaganda machine and other fringe groups have a huge role in this, I believe.

 

 

 

Just wanted to say, since I'm the OP, that I had no intention of causing forum members to (once again) become argumentative with each other.

 

But this is exactly what I have been experiencing on "the outside" among non-diabetics and the general public -- there is a palpable and hysterical view that low-carbing is going to kill me and it's a crazy fad diet.

 

I have found that there is NOT the same kind of judgments made for someone who is...say...vegetarian or macrobiotic or doing an extremely low fat diet or fasting and juicing. So many other diets seems acceptable while low-carbing feels (at least for me) ridiculed. Maybe it IS the whole green movement, making eating animals and animal products sacrilege or the fact that the grain/carb industry is HUGE business and has us utterly brainwashed about whole grains and fruit. I mean, really, General Mills and so many companies make all their money on processed carbs because they are incredibly cheap and the profit margins are enormous.

 

The sole purpose of posting this question was to ponder why there seems to be such emotional hysteria about a low carb - high protein - high fat diet. I didn't want anyone on this forum to feel that they needed to discuss their carb intake or defend it in any way.

 

I simply find the emotionally charged atmosphere curious... to the point that I may as well start telling people I'm a vampire and live on blood and see how that goes. :)

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Bountyman
I simply find the emotionally charged atmosphere curious... to the point that I may as well start telling people I'm a vampire and live on blood and see how that goes. :)

 

Then you open yourself up to a new can of "emotionally charged" worms. Do you prefer low white count/high red count blood...or high white count/low red count blood? The high white count for improved resistance to sunlight and minor abrasions from resistant donors...or a high red count for that "extended" metamorphosis? Maybe diabetics for their, forgive me here, "sweet" aftertaste...or non-diabetics, in case you just weren't up to having your liver & kidneys filter out the medications they're all on?

 

Things to ponder... :D

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velvetgreen
They then go into a lot of quasi-science that inevitably flits over things like the Inuit or what paleolithic peoples ate...

 

why does everyone keep singling out the Inuit. i thought this diet was common to all Eskimo people, not just the Inuit?

 

am i missing something?

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samorgan

Good question. I think it is just because of that famous European explorer who brought all this information to light. I believe it was the Inuit people he stayed with.

 

 

why does everyone keep singling out the Inuit. i thought this diet was common to all Eskimo people, not just the Inuit?

 

am i missing something?

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velvetgreen
Good question. I think it is just because of that famous European explorer who brought all this information to light. I believe it was the Inuit people he stayed with.

 

yeah. it is just one of my pet peeves. people seem to use the term "Inuit" when they are talking about "Eskimos". i think that they think they are being klever. when actually all they are is wrong...

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Mussakka

Perhaps the solution to the problem is simply not to tell people what your diet is? I eschew meat and most animal products and don't feel the need to explain myself in mixed dietary company. If someone offers something I don't eat, I just say I'm not hungry or that I'm watching my weight (which unless you're rail thin is a defensible position for nearly everyone). Neither is a lie and I get to spare myself the endless debate and questions, not to mention the usual "That can't be healthy! You have to eat meat for XYZ reason!" comments from people who--much like we find when most non-diabetics comment or offer "advice" on our diabetes--have no real knowledge of the subject and have in no way done the reading or research, nor in any way possess the practical life experience of actually living a certain way, to speak on the topic.

 

I would suggest another reason for the ridicule is a certain herd or pack mentality among us humans. The ones who stray from the herd are encourage or chastised to return and maintain solidarity. Those who don't are ridiculed or cast to the wolves, so to speak. You see it all the time. People who are different or don't follow certain norms are more often than not looked upon less favorably. Just look at high school!

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It Ain't Over

There is a much greater understanding of the low carb diet now than I had seen earlier. This thread demonstrates that well. There are always strong feelings to go with it. I mean how can there not be when eating is close to the most important event in the day? Well maybe not, but it is a very big deal with most people anyway.

Interesting how much variation there is with low carb. Many here take up over 100 carbs and that is a legitimate low carb level. Some (like me) take it down to 30-35 carbs/day to get my bg's under control.

I still believe the low carb diet is not for everyone. Some either do not need it or just do not want to give up that much. It really depends on what you can do, what you want to do, and what you need to do. Add into that some are type 1, type 1.5, or type 2 and you get a lot of various approaches and needs.

Me? I just am just enjoying my improved health. Short of a cure this is the only way I have seen to get this close to a normal bg level.

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samorgan

I forgot to mention ongoing experimentation with using ketogenic diets for fight cancer as it has been discovered that tumors just LOVE lots of glucose and only thrive in that environment. You can Google [ketogenic cancer] for a wide variety of references (from a wide "variety" of sources - pick the good ones!)

 

 

My experience definitely matches yours and it is indeed perplexing sometimes. I think you have pretty much hit it on the head with every one of your speculations as to the reason.

 

The really ironic thing is that this is no fad diet at all. There are entire populations both ancient and in a few cases currently who live like this - and interestingly are just about 100% free of the "diseases of civilization" when they do. On the other hand, every single other diet you mentioned is indeed a "fad" diet with no more than a few decades of history.

 

LC/HF was advocated and practiced 150 years ago in England and Scandanavia. It was used to treat diabetes 100 years ago prior to the discovery of insulin. A more restricted version was used also since 100 years ago to successfully treat childhood epilepsy. It has recently had a resurgence where pharmaceuticals have failed. More recently, when a similar diet was advocated yet again and popularized by Dr. Atkins literally millions of people engaged in it for various lengths of time. In spite of legions (and millions) looking to discredit it, no evidence of any harmful effects has ever turned up.

 

Low-fat diets are not only a very recent fat but one with a miserable track record.

 

Plant-based diets of course have populations who have lived that way for eons, but their superiority is a myth. You can look at Denise Minger's excellent analyses of the China Study (one of the largest datasets EVER in this regard) for some very clear information on this.

 

CSPI with their propaganda machine and other fringe groups have a huge role in this, I believe.

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Alan S
This week, I had a conversation with my hair stylist that turned a little bit ugly. She was horrified that I wasn't eating carbohydrates. Especially fruit. She felt that what I am eating is going to kill me....like tomorrow.

Aha!

 

Now I see why I was blessed at the time of my diagnosis. If you look at the avatar at the left you may notice my needs for a hair stylist are, well, not high. In fact I have not seen one for over thirty years.

 

That may have saved my life. The only person horrified at my reduction in carbs over eight years ago when I was starting to test was my dietician and I had already learned enough to ignore him. But a hairstylist may have had the professional clout to sway me...

 

PS I love the title of the thread: DO NOT WANT A BIG DEBATE: but wondering why carbohydrates cause such strong emotions?

 

A topic like that in a diabetes forum is akin to topics like these in relevant forums:

 

DO NOT WANT A BIG DEBATE: but wondering why "right to life" causes such strong emotions?

DO NOT WANT A BIG DEBATE: but wondering why religious fanaticism causes such strong emotions?

DO NOT WANT A BIG DEBATE: but wondering why health-care funding causes such strong emotions?

 

I'm sure you can think of others - but please, nobody should respond to any of the examples :(

 

Commenting on the big debate is always going to simply extend the big debate.

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WantHealth
Aha!

 

Now I see why I was blessed at the time of my diagnosis. If you look at the avatar at the left you may notice my needs for a hair stylist are, well, not high. In fact I have not seen one for over thirty years.

 

That may have saved my life. The only person horrified at my reduction in carbs over eight years ago when I was starting to test was my dietician and I had already learned enough to ignore him. But a hairstylist may have had the professional clout to sway me...

 

PS I love the title of the thread: DO NOT WANT A BIG DEBATE: but wondering why carbohydrates cause such strong emotions?

 

A topic like that in a diabetes forum is akin to topics like these in relevant forums:

 

DO NOT WANT A BIG DEBATE: but wondering why "right to life" causes such strong emotions?

DO NOT WANT A BIG DEBATE: but wondering why religious fanaticism causes such strong emotions?

DO NOT WANT A BIG DEBATE: but wondering why health-care funding causes such strong emotions?

 

I'm sure you can think of others - but please, nobody should respond to any of the examples :(

 

Commenting on the big debate is always going to simply extend the big debate.

 

 

Actually, I really don't see your point.

I placed this post in the "Low Carb Lifestyle" secton so I would expect those responding would be like-minded individuals following a low carb diet. I was NOT soliciting opinions from anyone who doesn't follow a low-carb diet or who disagrees with the idea of this type of lifestyle. This was not meant to be a discussion of the diet at all but a discussion of the public perception of the diet.

 

And, secondly, I don't see how an person's diet would be as controversial as religious and political issues.

 

My post did not solicit feedback on low-carbing, it merely asked why the backlash from others can sometimes be so harsh. I was simply asking why on earth people get so ridiculously upset about it, like it's an affront to their very existance. I think Todd G's quote was precisely the answer I sought.

 

I mentioned my hairstylist only because she was the most recent person to express horror at my diet choices. Just about every single person I know has had a similar reaction, including my mother who is a very healthy eater but is not diabetic so she thinks whole grains and fruit are the pinnacle of a good diet. I suppose my mother's food choices are excellent for her, because she isn't diabetic, but I can't eat her whole grain breads, homemade jams, baked sweet potatoes (and so on) and she thinks I must be misinformed. I left her with a few books but it is VERY hard to explain my food choices to almost everyone who has been brainwashed that meat is bad, eggs are killing us, cheese/milk is bad and whole grains are excellent.

 

I am not seeking to discuss my food choices with my friends and family but it comes up, all the time, and I need to say something as to why I'm not eating so-and-so's homemade banana bread or why I'd rather pick a different restaurant than Italian or pizza....or why when I'm dining at a friends I'm not eating enormous sections of the prepared meal.... believe me... it comes up and I can't keep it a secret.

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xMenace

I find emotional responses come from only selected groups, groups that somehow developed strong opinions. As has been mentioned, people do not like to change and they do not like to be proven wrong. A vegan and a paleo might as well be a republican and democrat.

 

The groups I see getting emotional are the health community and the vegan/vegetarian community. For some reason the stick people -- sorry, but if you are going to call me a fatty, I'm going to affectionately call you this :) -- the stick people are the most emphatic. I suspect because they are skinny and tolerate carbs very well, they expect the rest of us to be able to as well. The only theory that sits well with them is that we are all weak minded; while the theory that sits well with me is that I'm the normal one. Come famine times, and they will come again, us fatties will stand a much better chance of survival. We always have and we always will. Let them migrate south to eat their 30 bananas a day while I stay up north hunting ... danm, no more animals. *sigh*

 

*I fully acknowledge that HFLC can be followed on a veggie diet, at least to some degree, and it's by far healthier than the SAD diet.

 

A quote to elevate the board:

 

"A truth’s initial commotion is directly proportional to how deeply the lie was believed. It wasn’t the world being round that agitated people, but that the world wasn’t flat. When a well-packaged web of lies has been sold gradually to the masses over generations, the truth will seem utterly preposterous and its speaker a raving lunatic."

 

Dresden James

 

I have never made a more "on point" post in my entire life. I should quit now. :)

 

Bonus points if you can name the book this came from. ;)

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MrsMia

I know at my most recent visit with my endo he really liked how I've been managing my bgs, my A1c and keeping my weight steady. I casually mentioned again (I've told him this several times before but he must have tuned me out) that I low carb and believe that was the key to my success so far. I said that I use the ketone strips to make sure that I am in a state of ketosis. It was when I said that I use ketone strips to check for ketones that he put on his "listening ears". He then asked me to give him an idea of how many carbs I eat per day and a sample meal. I told him I eat between 30-50 carbs per day depending on what I feel like eating at that particular time. I said for breakfast I will have a cheese and mushroom omelet and sometimes 3 or 4 brazil nuts. He looked at me and said "Do you enjoy what you eat"? I told him that I most definitely do and he said that that was all that matters. So I think for alot of people they have a somewhat harsh view of low carbing because they view it as unsustainable, dull/boring or unhealthy in some way. I think some (like my endo) become stunned when they run into someone that really likes that kind of lifestyle eating and has very desirable health outcomes to boot. I know my endo employs his own nutritionists and doesn't get very involved directly with his patients' nutrition. But even he told me awhile ago that it was ok to go low carb. (even though he either doesn't remember or doesn't say it often because he follows alot of ADA guidelines) Don't know if he ever thought I would actually do it and sustain it though. :)

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NickP
I am not seeking to discuss my food choices with my friends and family but it comes up, all the time, and I need to say something as to why I'm not eating so-and-so's homemade banana bread or why I'd rather pick a different restaurant than Italian or pizza....or why when I'm dining at a friends I'm not eating enormous sections of the prepared meal.... believe me... it comes up and I can't keep it a secret.

 

Each of us are different. Personally, I enjoy engaging others in a conversation about how the Lipid Hypothesis is not based upon fact. how carbs react in your body, how eating Low Carb is not something new, and how this low carb (diet) lifestyle has dramatically changed my life. I know some people cannot handle the foods that I eat, but I do think that this lifestyle would greatly improve the health of most of the people I know. Through my success, I have inspired and "converted" many of my family, peers and friends into the LC lifestyle.

 

I know at my most recent visit with my endo he really liked how I've been managing my bgs, my A1c and keeping my weight steady. I casually mentioned again (I've told him this several times before but he must have tuned me out) that I low carb and believe that was the key to my success so far. I said that I use the ketone strips to make sure that I am in a state of ketosis. It was when I said that I use ketone strips to check for ketones that he put on his "listening ears". He then asked me to give him an idea of how many carbs I eat per day and a sample meal. I told him I eat between 30-50 carbs per day depending on what I feel like eating at that particular time. I said for breakfast I will have a cheese and mushroom omelet and sometimes 3 or 4 brazil nuts. He looked at me and said "Do you enjoy what you eat"? I told him that I most definitely do and he said that that was all that matters. So I think for alot of people they have a somewhat harsh view of low carbing because they view it as unsustainable, dull/boring or unhealthy in some way. I think some (like my endo) become stunned when they run into someone that really likes that kind of lifestyle eating and has very desirable health outcomes to boot. I know my endo employs his own nutritionists and doesn't get very involved directly with his patients' nutrition. But even he told me awhile ago that it was ok to go low carb. (even though he either doesn't remember or doesn't say it often because he follows alot of ADA guidelines) Don't know if he ever thought I would actually do it and sustain it though. :)

 

Mia...I get this alot. Most folks don't believe that you can maintain this lifestyle for an extended period (like the rest of your life). I think some will agree that it could be healthy, but surely, "no one would want to live this way." Again, I agree with you. I miss some of my old foods, but I don't miss what they did to me. I have learned to live a full and happy life, still enjoying my food and friendships. Sure, I have made some sacrifices, but my health and welfare is worth the small sacrifices.

 

BTW....I orginally went to the LC lifestyle to manage my BG/D. Now, I have become a big believer in the LC/HF lifestyle from all that I have learned and read on line. Even if they came up with a magical pill that could cure my Diabetes, I would not change my diet and lifestyle.

 

For me, the bottom line is this-- Eating a diet that is natural is probably the best diet for everyone. Eating processed foods are bad, regardless of how you want your diet to be......so, eating a Low Carb diet nearly forces you to eat natural foods that are not processed. I have Diabetes today from the foods that I used to eat (Thanks Doritos!). It was the processed foods and refined sugars that caused the damage to my metabolism.

 

I do feel very strongly about my diet and lifestyle. But I am a "changed man!' and want to share my success with others!

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