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kibescorp

Fat promotes insulin resistance FAR more than carbs do

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MDF12

So wait, I'm confused. I'm a new diabetic type 2. Diagnosed in sept 2011. I've had high cholesterol since I was 18. 20+ years later now I'm type 2 but have been told since I was 18 to eat low fat and low calorie diet. I'm a normal weight but just got some bad family genes.

How do I manage the two together?

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MsTCB

Of course, I'm not a medical professional, but I would venture to say that if you had high Cholesterol at age 18, then it sounds like your Cholesterol issues are genetic. I have a friend who is an ex-Marine and has a very "buffed" body - always exercised and ate well, yet he has always battled high Cholesterol. His doctor told him it was a genetic thing and your situation sounds a lot like his.

 

And, the low fat eating hasn't helped your Cholestrol, as it?

 

I would recommend eating the low carb-high fat diet with moderate protein for a while and see how it effects your numbers. I suspect it will lower your lipids b/c in people with Diabetes, high blood sugars usually cause high lipid levels.

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MDF12

Thanks MsTCB,

 

You are correct it runs in my family and now my daughter at 18 also has high cholesterol. We are also of normal weight as well.

 

I've eliminated junk food from my diet, cookies cake candy. I have Oatmeal with protein powder in the mornings with half and apple cut up in it and try to stay within 120 carbs a day as the nutritionist suggested . My A1C was 6.5 when i was diagnosed and it went down to 6.2 3 months later, however for the first time in my life my triglycerides went from 320 to normal 145. Will high fat make that go up?

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MsTCB
Thanks MsTCB,

 

You are correct it runs in my family and now my daughter at 18 also has high cholesterol. We are also of normal weight as well.

 

I've eliminated junk food from my diet, cookies cake candy. I have Oatmeal with protein powder in the mornings with half and apple cut up in it and try to stay within 120 carbs a day as the nutritionist suggested . My A1C was 6.5 when i was diagnosed and it went down to 6.2 3 months later, however for the first time in my life my triglycerides went from 320 to normal 145. Will high fat make that go up?

 

No, I don't believe eating the high fat will make your trigs go up. But, I would recommend lowering your carbs to keep the lipid numbers down.

 

Oatmeal spikes my BGs about 60 points, so I had to give that up along with fruit. Don't be afraid to go less than 120 carbs/day and just see what that does for you.

 

I know it sounds like a high fat diet would give you high lipids in your bloodstream, but it is actually the high carbs that give you the high lipids in most cases.

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MDF12

I suppose I should start testing. My internist diagnosed me and said I didn't need to test. I'll have to go make an appointment with an Endo doctor and get some testing supplies, that way, at least I'll know what I'm dealing with.

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MsTCB
I suppose I should start testing. My internist diagnosed me and said I didn't need to test. I'll have to go make an appointment with an Endo doctor and get some testing supplies, that way, at least I'll know what I'm dealing with.

 

Don't need to test? Wow - your Internist sounds like the one I had. That is an EXCELLENT idea to go to an Endo to get set up with testing. Congrats on getting your A1c down to 6.2 in 3 months!! Regular testing is a good idea so you can see how different foods effect your BG so you can "eat to your meter" as they say. :)

I bet that as your A1c continues to go down, your lipid tests will just keep getting better and better. Get your doc to test your lipids and your A1c every 3 months so you can keep track of your progress. :)

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Rad Warrier

...

 

This subforum is not a "biased" - it is full of people who happen to know the TRUTH and practice it. For whatever reason, not everyone with Diabetes chooses to be this enlightened. But there is a difference between being "biased" and being "committed to the truth."

 

Hello MsTCB, your commitment to "TRUTH" reminds me a little of the history of that part of the globe where I was born in. Little over a thousand years ago, invaders came in on horseback through snowy mountain passes primarily to plunder and loot us and secondarily to spread among us non-believers the version of the "TRUTH" they were strongly committed to, of course through the sword. Because the sword was behind this "TRUTH" a minority among us chose to accept this new "TRUTH" but the majority however clung to the "FALSEHOOD" perpetrated by our hoary ancestors. Hundreds of years later groups of people arrived through the sea route, again primarily to plunder and loot us but secondarily to spread their version of "TRUTH". Swords were going out of fashion at that time, so guns were behind this version of the truth. Some groups among these seafarers still resorted to tested and proven methods like burning at the stakes. More powerful among these seafaring groups employed subtler methods to spread their "TRUTH" which included propaganda and material incentives like dangling food before the starving and the famished (a condition they managed to create because of their looting and plundering.)

 

Do you have any methods in mind to spread your version of "TRUTH"? For me personally, just propaganda is not enough - I might fall of substantial material incentives (like money) to feign to believe in your "TRUTH" and do lip (and keyboard) service - but still I might continue to practice my "FALSEHOOD" secretly because I am not convinced of the superiority of your "TRUTH" over my "FALSEHOOD." :D :D

 

Regards,

Rad

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MsTCB
Hello MsTCB, your commitment to "TRUTH" reminds me a little of the history of that part of the globe where I was born in. Little over a thousand years ago, invaders came in on horseback through snowy mountain passes primarily to plunder and loot us and secondarily to spread among us non-believers the version of the "TRUTH" they were strongly committed to, of course through the sword. Because the sword was behind this "TRUTH" a minority among us chose to accept this new "TRUTH" but the majority however clung to the "FALSEHOOD" perpetrated by our hoary ancestors. Hundreds of years later groups of people arrived through the sea route, again primarily to plunder and loot us but secondarily to spread their version of "TRUTH". Swords were going out of fashion at that time, so guns were behind this version of the truth. Some groups among these seafarers still resorted to tested and proven methods like burning at the stakes. More powerful among these seafaring groups employed subtler methods to spread their "TRUTH" which included propaganda and material incentives like dangling food before the starving and the famished (a condition they managed to create because of their looting and plundering.)

 

Do you have any methods in mind to spread your version of "TRUTH"? For me personally, just propaganda is not enough - I might fall of substantial material incentives (like money) to feign to believe in your "TRUTH" and do lip (and keyboard) service - but still I might continue to practice my "FALSEHOOD" secretly because I am not convinced of the superiority of your "TRUTH" over my "FALSEHOOD." :D :D

 

Regards,

Rad

 

Your posting makes no sense and is totally off topic and rude.

You are apparently angry about something and I wish you the best in getting some help.

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foxl

To veer further off topic, Rad, do you believe in the Aryan Invasion? I am not so sure I do ... although I am following the genetics of the debate. Many Brahmins have a Y-R1a1 haplotype, which my father happens to share.

 

I do think many people moved back and forth between India and Eastern Europe and Central Asia, over a long period of time ... back, and forth!

 

Sorry for the digression. We all have our own "Truths." Some of mine are revealed in my meter readings. And mine differ, sometimes quite a bit from others'. Knowledge never entered a mind through an open mouth (or happy fingers on the keyboard.).

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Rad Warrier
To veer further off topic, Rad, do you believe in the Aryan Invasion? I am not so sure I do ... although I am following the genetics of the debate. Many Brahmins have a Y-R1a1 haplotype, which my father happens to share.

 

I do think many people moved back and forth between India and Eastern Europe and Central Asia, over a long period of time ... back, and forth!

 

Sorry for the digression. We all have our own "Truths." Some of mine are revealed in my meter readings. And mine differ, sometimes quite a bit from others'. Knowledge never entered a mind through an open mouth (or happy fingers on the keyboard.).

 

Actually the R1a1 is found not just among Brahmins but among many other castes too, and even among the Chenchu tribals of south India. It appears to me that there is insufficient evidence of an Aryan invasion. Like you, I too believe that populations moved to and fro - from India to Central Asia and Europe and from Europe and Central Asia to India. The to and fro movement appears to have occurred between far east and India too.

 

Regards,

Rad

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MsTCB

I'm sorry if I got carried away with claims of knowing "the" truth. I was responding to the OP's claim that T2 Diabetes can be controlled by eating "a diet of either high fat, high carbs, or a balance of both." I do not believe anyone can control T2 Diabetes by eating a diet of HIGH CARBS/LOW-FAT - that's the "truth" I was referring to. IF anyone here has been able to do this, please share your methods with us. I am listening.

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Ela

You know being here for .....9 months already? (Wow) I noticed a strong pattern, which is totally logical: Type 1 and Type 2 people on insulin tend to be more for eating carbs and less for eating fat. BECAUSE THEY CAN.

 

But people like me just HAVE NO CHOICE. If I have high BG my only option is to REDUCE CARBS and in order to not be starving I got to REPLACE them with something and the safest option FOR ME is fat! It DOES WORK!

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MsTCB
You know being here for .....9 months already? (Wow) I noticed a strong pattern, which is totally logical: Type 1 and Type 2 people on insulin tend to be more for eating carbs and less for eating fat. BECAUSE THEY CAN.

 

But people like me just HAVE NO CHOICE. If I have high BG my only option is to REDUCE CARBS and in order to not be starving I got to REPLACE them with something and the safest option FOR ME is fat! It DOES WORK!

 

Good observation! I was beginning to notice the same thing, but couldn't say it as well as you did.

But, I suppose I'm an exception to that pattern.

Maybe it's because I'm a T1.5 :)

 

Although I have to take Insulin injections, I am NOT "for eating more carbs and less fat."

 

I am Insulin Resistant and Insulin Insufficient. I know that sounds kind of impossible, but I think it has to do with the fact that my Doc didn't properly treat my Diabetes over the past 3 years (but that's another story).

 

Even though I "can" (and must) cover my carbs with Insulin, I control my carbs so that I can minimize the amount of Insulin I have to inject. Due to the Insulin Resistance, I have to be careful or else those carb calories will get quickly stored as fat if eat more than I can burn up.

 

Hope I'm making sense.

Because I know my body does not properly process carbs, I want to keep them to a bare minimum.

Maybe it's silly, but I just think of carbs as "the enemy" - like having a food sensitivity to Soy, Cow's Milk, Gluten, etc.

I don't want to put in much of the stuff my body rejects.

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Caravaggio
You know being here for .....9 months already? (Wow) I noticed a strong pattern, which is totally logical: Type 1 and Type 2 people on insulin tend to be more for eating carbs and less for eating fat. BECAUSE THEY CAN.

 

But people like me just HAVE NO CHOICE. If I have high BG my only option is to REDUCE CARBS and in order to not be starving I got to REPLACE them with something and the safest option FOR ME is fat! It DOES WORK!

 

 

I certainly do not belong to the pattern you are referring to, but neither do I belong to your category of people who "have no choice" (quoted without the shouting).

 

I'm a type 2, non-insulin user. I take metformin. I on purpose call myself "lower carber" (which some can call moderate carber) instead of "low carb". I eat lower carbs than the general population, but am definitely not restricting myself to less than 100 grams of carbs a day (which I think is the commonly accepted definition of "low carb" - if I'm wrong correct me please). I eat fruits, not as much as I would want to because too much fruits will raise my blood sugar, but I do not bad mouth fruits like others here do. I am not afraid of eating fats (except trans fats which I will touch), but I cannot classify myself as high fat eater either. Too much fat literally makes me puke and gives me stomach discomfort. Like everyone else, I eat protein. The actual ratio of these macronutrients change on a daily basis, depending on what is available and what my mood is for food.

 

But I would agree that high-carb, low-fat that most dietitians recommend is not the way to go, whether one is diabetic or not, especially if the bulk of the carbs comes from processed food. Even among those who use insulin, most do not espouse a high-carb, low-fat diet based on French fries and baskets of bread. Many of those on insulin reduce their carbs lower than what most dietitians recommend, just probably not as low as you prefer.

 

I'm happy low carb-high fat works for you and many others here, but please do not insist that it should work for others because it does not (certainly not for me). I am a physically active person, and sports rank top of my list of pleasurable things to do in life, and your LC/HF diet does not work for me.

 

Please also do not jump to the conclusion that non-insulin users "have no choice" and therefore can only go by the route you have chosen. I, as you, have a choice. It's just that my choice is different from yours, and while my choice may not work for you, it works for me.

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Caravaggio
I am not afraid of eating fats (except trans fats which I will touch)

 

That should be "(except trans fat which I will not touch).

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DeusXM

Actually, the OP didn't even mention T2 - they just made some vague, nebulous points that you couldn't eat a low-carb, high fat diet because apparently the universe doesn't work that way.

 

Type 1 and Type 2 people on insulin tend to be more for eating carbs and less for eating fat. BECAUSE THEY CAN.

 

Yep. Perhaps you might have also noticed another pattern - people with T1 and T2s on insulin very rarely tell T2s they SHOULD eat more carbs. As a T1 I am acutely conscious that the way I treat my diabetes is not for every case of diabetes. Which is precisely why I post these post saying everyone needs to find what works for them. And what comes back are grand statements that you must low-carb or you can't treat diabetes. That might be the case for T2 (and BTW, I'm not convinced it's the only way of managing T2) but it's definitely not the only method for treating T1 and yet I am repeatedly told that because I have 'diabetes', I'm a 'bad diabetic' because I don't low-carb. Which is precisely why I made the point about having a good BMI and A1c despite not following a LCHF diet. It wasn't to belittle anyone else's treatment regime or claim mine was better than everyone else's, or that my method works for everyone, every time. It was to demonstrate that there are people with diabetes out there, not on an LCHF diet, who get good A1cs and also don't put on weight. As Carravagio has also pointed out, not following a LCHF does not by definition mean you stuff yourself with bread and potatoes. A more detailed explanation of what I personally find works for me is 'what everyone without diabetes eats'. Again, it won't work for everyone. It works for me. It might work for someone else. Doesn't that 'someone else' at least deserve an opportunity to try a variety of approaches and find what works for them, without being told that only one approach ever works and the rest are all just people who are in pain or need help?

 

Not everyone who disagrees with you is 'in pain' or 'needs help'. We just disagree that someone else's method of treating diabetes will be the right one for treating ours.

 

Points made previously are that this is the LC subforum and should only be for people who want to support LCHF. That's fair enough. Just remember it's the LC support forum, not the 'slag off everyone who doesn't LC' forum.

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HelenM
Good observation! I was beginning to notice the same thing, but couldn't say it as well as you did.

But, I suppose I'm an exception to that pattern.

Maybe it's because I'm a T1.5 :)

 

Although I have to take Insulin injections, I am NOT "for eating more carbs and less fat."

 

I am Insulin Resistant and Insulin Insufficient. I know that sounds kind of impossible, but I think it has to do with the fact that my Doc didn't properly treat my Diabetes over the past 3 years (but that's another story).

 

Even though I "can" (and must) cover my carbs with Insulin, I control my carbs so that I can minimize the amount of Insulin I have to inject. Due to the Insulin Resistance, I have to be careful or else those carb calories will get quickly stored as fat if eat more than I can burn up.

.

The pattern doesn't encompass all people with 1.5 either. I too am 1.5, and I most certainly went for 3 years without any medical treatment (long story, probably written somewhere in the archives) . I eat a moderate carb diet almost as prescribed by my doctor (prescribed 180, I probably eat between 150 and 180). My total insulin is about 25u a day and I have an HbA1c in the fives (and have had for almost 7 years) I don't eat junk food, getting carbohydrates mainly from good quality sourdough or wholemeal bread, small new potatoes, low GI rice, fruit veg and milk. I don't actively avoid fat but don't add it where unnecessary ( I live in France and agree with the locals that good bread doesn't need butter). I'm relatively active for someone who will be 60 this year.

We may share the word diabetes in the diagnosis and we all need to attempt to maintain stable, lower glucose levels but we have different lifestyles and there is certainly more than one way to manage it well.

It wouldn't be a diet I would want to use but at the other extreme to a low carb high fat diet, there are records of very high carb, high fibre diets being used successfully . The diet used by M Viswanathum in India for many years was 67% carbohydrate (by necessity, for cultural reasons the diet had to be vegetarian(mainly vegan) and the lower carb diet suggested by the mainstream at the time didn't work because it wasn't acceptable to the 'patients'. )

http://mdrf-eprints.in/428/1/High_carbohydrate_high_fibre_diet_in_diabetes.pdf

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Subby
I am Insulin Resistant and Insulin Insufficient. I know that sounds kind of impossible, but I think it has to do with the fact that my Doc didn't properly treat my Diabetes over the past 3 years (but that's another story).

 

That doesn't sound at all impossible, I'd say it's quite common for both T1s and T2s and probably other forms as well! You get T1s with some form of IR (like myself - it's not visceral IR but it is some kind that dictates 2x typical doses). Your get T2s (or people with IR) with a deficiency of insulin production. There is absolutely no contradiction in terms there.

 

What can vary radically between people - whatever the type (most T1s are fully insulin deficient but there is a spectrum there, and in the subset 1.5) are things like:

a). How insulin resistant they are

B). How insulin deficient they are

c). How they respond to external insulin (does it always lead to fat storage? Is there even a coherent scale to measure whether x dose will cause excessive fat storage? Not that I know of! It seems to vary radically.)

d). How their blood sugar responds to carbs (and other foods)

e). How their weight responds to carbs (and other foods)

f). Probably another xxx things - they know more about the next galaxy than they seem to know, really know, about metabolism.

 

And all of those things may also be affected by many other things. For example, people respond differently to stress. People have different levels of activity and exercise, which may change up the entire equation. Some T2s or IR people have trouble keeping weight on. Some insulin deficient but low carbing people have difficulty keeping it off.

 

I think making blanket statements about control methods because it works for you and because lots of other people say how universally wonderful it is, is almost always going to leave both possible options and people - maybe a lot of people - out in the cold. I consider that unfortunate where solidarity is simply a matter of conceding the complexity and variety of the condition/s and hence the acceptance that there may in fact be alternative pathways to healthy control.

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MsTCB
That doesn't sound at all impossible, I'd say it's quite common for both T1s and T2s and probably other forms as well! You get T1s with some form of IR (like myself - it's not visceral IR but it is some kind that dictates 2x typical doses). Your get T2s (or people with IR) with a deficiency of insulin production. There is absolutely no contradiction in terms there.

 

What can vary radically between people - whatever the type (most T1s are fully insulin deficient but there is a spectrum there, and in the subset 1.5) are things like:

a). How insulin resistant they are

B). How insulin deficient they are

c). How they respond to external insulin (does it always lead to fat storage? Is there even a coherent scale to measure whether x dose will cause excessive fat storage? Not that I know of! It seems to vary radically.)

d). How their blood sugar responds to carbs (and other foods)

e). How their weight responds to carbs (and other foods)

f). Probably another xxx things - they know more about the next galaxy than they seem to know, really know, about metabolism.

 

And all of those things may also be affected by many other things. For example, people respond differently to stress. People have different levels of activity and exercise, which may change up the entire equation. Some T2s or IR people have trouble keeping weight on. Some insulin deficient but low carbing people have difficulty keeping it off.

 

I think making blanket statements about control methods because it works for you and because lots of other people say how universally wonderful it is, is almost always going to leave both possible options and people - maybe a lot of people - out in the cold. I consider that unfortunate where solidarity is simply a matter of conceding the complexity and variety of the condition/s and hence the acceptance that there may in fact be alternative pathways to healthy control.

 

EXACTLY! This is why I objected to the OP's blanket statement that people should eat high carb/low fat, OR low carb/high fat, OR high carb/high fat.

 

BTW, my statements STILL stand! :)

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MsTCB
Hidden
The pattern doesn't encompass all people with 1.5 either. I too am 1.5, and I most certainly went for 3 years without any medical treatment (long story, probably written somewhere in the archives) . I eat a moderate carb diet almost as prescribed by my doctor (prescribed 180, I probably eat between 150 and 180). My total insulin is about 25u a day and I have an HbA1c in the fives (and have had for almost 7 years) I don't eat junk food, getting carbohydrates mainly from good quality sourdough or wholemeal bread, small new potatoes, low GI rice, fruit veg and milk. I don't actively avoid fat but don't add it where unnecessary ( I live in France and agree with the locals that good bread doesn't need butter). I'm relatively active for someone who will be 60 this year.

We may share the word diabetes in the diagnosis and we all need to attempt to maintain stable, lower glucose levels but we have different lifestyles and there is certainly more than one way to manage it well.

It wouldn't be a diet I would want to use but at the other extreme to a low carb high fat diet, there are records of very high carb, high fibre diets being used successfully . The diet used by M Viswanathum in India for many years was 67% carbohydrate (by necessity, for cultural reasons the diet had to be vegetarian(mainly vegan) and the lower carb diet suggested by the mainstream at the time didn't work because it wasn't acceptable to the 'patients'. )

http://mdrf-eprints.in/428/1/High_carbohydrate_high_fibre_diet_in_diabetes.pdf

 

I never said that it did embrace ALL people with T1.5. Note that I was talking about myself.

 

Again, this is a LC/HF lifestyle subforum of DF which says at the top of the screen:

"Below you will find a list of discussions in the Low-carb lifestyle forums at the Diabetes Forums.The low carb lifestyle forum is for discussion on following a reduced carbohydrate lifestyle. A low carbohydrate diet may be helpful in controlling blood sugars and may also help with weight reduction. A low-carb diet limits the amount of carbohydrates in your diet such as bread, grains, rice, fruit and starchy vegetables."

 

If you aren't following the LC/HF lifestyle, then there are other areas of DF on which to post your arguments to the contrary. A diet of "67% carbs" would KILL me.

THIS area is for people who SUPPORT the LC/HF lifestyle.

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MsTCB
Actually, the OP didn't even mention T2 - they just made some vague, nebulous points that you couldn't eat a low-carb, high fat diet because apparently the universe doesn't work that way.

 

 

 

Yep. Perhaps you might have also noticed another pattern - people with T1 and T2s on insulin very rarely tell T2s they SHOULD eat more carbs. As a T1 I am acutely conscious that the way I treat my diabetes is not for every case of diabetes. Which is precisely why I post these post saying everyone needs to find what works for them. And what comes back are grand statements that you must low-carb or you can't treat diabetes. That might be the case for T2 (and BTW, I'm not convinced it's the only way of managing T2) but it's definitely not the only method for treating T1 and yet I am repeatedly told that because I have 'diabetes', I'm a 'bad diabetic' because I don't low-carb. Which is precisely why I made the point about having a good BMI and A1c despite not following a LCHF diet. It wasn't to belittle anyone else's treatment regime or claim mine was better than everyone else's, or that my method works for everyone, every time. It was to demonstrate that there are people with diabetes out there, not on an LCHF diet, who get good A1cs and also don't put on weight. As Carravagio has also pointed out, not following a LCHF does not by definition mean you stuff yourself with bread and potatoes. A more detailed explanation of what I personally find works for me is 'what everyone without diabetes eats'. Again, it won't work for everyone. It works for me. It might work for someone else. Doesn't that 'someone else' at least deserve an opportunity to try a variety of approaches and find what works for them, without being told that only one approach ever works and the rest are all just people who are in pain or need help?

 

Not everyone who disagrees with you is 'in pain' or 'needs help'. We just disagree that someone else's method of treating diabetes will be the right one for treating ours.

 

Points made previously are that this is the LC subforum and should only be for people who want to support LCHF. That's fair enough. Just remember it's the LC support forum, not the 'slag off everyone who doesn't LC' forum.

 

You are obviously reading WAY too much into this. No one "slagged off" on anyone who doesn't follow the LC/HF forum.

Obviously you do NOT follow this lifestyle, so why would you come on here to pick apart postings and try to ARGUE about why it's okay for you NOT to follow the LC/HF diet is totally INAPPROPRIATE. When you wander into a sub-forum that you KNOW is counter to your person lifestyle, then, of course, you will find statements that you don't agree with. This is supposed to be a place for people who SUPPORT the LC/HF lifestyle. Obviously, you do NOT. So, why would you come here other than to argue to the contrary? We get enough of that in the "real" world. This SHOULD be a safe place for us to come and "talk shop."

 

No one called or even implied that you were a "bad diabetic." And, people in this sub-forum do NOT need to be told that there are OTHER options. We know that, but we have CHOSEN the LC/HF lifestyle - hence the sub-forum.

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Subby
EXACTLY! ...

BTW, my statements STILL stand! :)

 

You agree that one shouldn't speak for all diabetics, but you stand by your statements of "truth" as LC being the only way for all T2s? Wonder if you see the slight paradox in there...

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