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Kittyluvr400

Dawn Phenonemon

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Kittyluvr400

I think that's me.

 

I wake up with a high number, 140-150. My nights have snacks. I watch the carbs in these snacks. Example of a snack...1/4 cup egg salad (homemade) and 2 slices of bacon. I am carb conscious all day, my bg lowering throughout the day. When I check my bg at bedtime, I was hitting low 100's....such as 101. Yet I wake up with 150. Alrighty then. This is happening often. I remember my niece telling my mom to save some carbs for before bed. Now I know why. I guess in the middle of the night my body is releasing some insulin while I sleep. Give myself a carb before bed (thinking a piece of fruit) and my body may not NEED to release that insulin.

 

Anyone else?

Just a thought to ponder. (seeing as how I have 4 months til my new doc appointment)

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samuraiguy

Actually DP is your liver dumping extra glucose during the night to prepare you for waking. It can be the equivalent of 45 - 60 g carbs depending on how long you fasted so eating a little bit of slow carbs before bed (high fiber or with fat) may help keep the liver from releasing too much.

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Kittyluvr400

What do you mean by slow carbs?

 

Is the liver 'dumping glucose' the same as my description....my body is releasing the glucose because my body deems it necessary because I didn't eat enough carbs, hense adding some carbs to a late night snack? Maybe a slice of toast, or some fruit?

 

You threw me on the word 'dumping'.

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Hammer

No, your liver releases glucose to give you energy.  Dawn Phenomenon is your liver releasing extra glucose to give you the energy to get up every morning.  Your pancreas releases insulin to be used to transfer that glucose into your blood cells.  If you are insulin resistant, then some of your blood cells resist using the insulin to help transfer the glucose into your blood cells, so that glucose that wasn't transferred into your blood cells is floating around in your blood stream, unable to get into your blood cells.  That extra glucose is what you are seeing on your meter when you take a BG reading.

 

If you eat something that has some fat or protein in it before going to bed, that can help slow down the release of glucose from your liver, and that can help lower your morning BG reading.  Sometimes a glass of wine or some other alcohol before bed can do the same thing as the fat or protein.

 

Slow carbs are complex carbs, whereas things like sweets are simple carbs.  Complex carbs take longer to turn into glucose, which in turn, takes longer to increase your BG levels.

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TX_Clint

I agree with Hammer. I find that if I have a glass of wine with some cheese and nuts it really does help reduce the effect of dp. I also find that taking my metformin near bedtime helps. 

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Kit

Yes, very unlikely you are dropping low in the night.  It is most likely your liver being way too helpful in the early hours of the morning.

 

There's a way to find out.  Test yourself right before bed and then test yourself a few more times in the middle of the night.  I set my alarm clock to wake me up when I do this.  In my case I stay pretty much rock steady until around 3am and which point I see a very steep rise.  Then it will start slowly falling back down until I officially get up.

 

Everyone has dawn phenomena.  Its just that non diabetics don't notice it because their bodies can handle that early morning burst of glucose.

 

The trick is to trick your liver into not dumping that extra glucose, or at least minimizing how much glucose it dumps.  For me I did well to eat a snack before bed.  IN my case, usually about an ounce of pecans or similar.  Sometimes a small piece of cheese.  It didn't make it go away, but I was able to keep that rise to within 20 points.

 

I really despise that you have to eat carbs because you are diabetic thing.  Unless you are taking medications that actively lower your glucose levels (insulin or a drug that stimulates insulin production) you are not going to go low.  Even if you are taking one of those drugs, if you are routinely having to eat to keep from going low, your dosage is off and needs to be adjusted.  Don't eat to your medication, medicate to your diet.

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meyery2k

It has taken me a little while and a lot of experimentation but my best morning fasting numbers seem to be when I...

 

Moderately exercise the night before.

 

Eat a small dinner - I initially thought type of food but it seems that quantity is the trick.  I do have a small dessert too.  My big meals are now breakfast and lunch.

 

Take my Metformin before sleeping.

 

I would also have a nightcap but that really has not made a diffrerence.

 

I usually have a fasting BG between 75 and 85 when I follow this plan.  Often it is in the low 80's.

 

My hunch would be that the fruit might not be the trick but maybe some nuts or cheese as previously advised.

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meyery2k

"Unless you are taking medications that actively lower your glucose levels (insulin or a drug that stimulates insulin production) you are not going to go low."

 

The only medication I take is Metformin which does not directly affect glucose levels.

 

One, to me, interesting observation I made was one day I tested right before exercising and I was at 92.  After a 2 mile walk at a 13:30 pace per mile I tested and I was at 66.  I was a little concerned since that is the lowest I have ever observed myself.  I felt OK just never had been in the 60's before.  I decided I would check again after I took a shower and then deal with (although I was not sure how I would).  After a shower I was up to 77 so I guess my body did whatever it needed to do to be right.  It was then dinner time so I ate and, curious, tested after the meal at 91.  I then did my things, took my Metformin, went to sleep, and woke up at 82.

 

I realize 1 observation does not necessarily prove a statement but this observation would seem to support what Kit has posted.

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Kittyluvr400

I'm not yet on any meds.

 

It seems you are all in agreement that I should have some cheese or nuts before bedtime. So something low carb would be the way to go?

 

The night I was at 101 before bed, I woke around 3 am for a potty run and checked it. Still 101. Yet 5 hours later, 141. Seems my high morning bg needs some tweaking. I have no problem waking in the middle of the night to take a peek. I fall asleep with no problem, so it won't be a nuisance getting back to sleep.

 

I guess it irks me that my body is doing its own thing. I need to be in control, not having it control me. I am a typical control freak by nature.

 

Just trying to figure my body out. It'll take time, but it'll get there.

 

Thanks again for the input. Compared to the Garden forums, you folks are great! Very helpful. Sometimes I need to read it 10 times til I understand....like the 'dumping'. LOL

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Kittyluvr400

Ah! Got it. So sugary carbs, bad. (Anything white, fruit, candy...) So a slice of toast or fruit, not the kind of carb I should eat before bed.

 

There are some carbs in nuts, but healthy carbs. If I am to eat carbs, make sure they are healthy carbs. Maybe a tablespoon of peanut butter? I need to read more about complex and slow carbs.

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meyery2k

Peanut butter - Many of the popular brands have more carbs than the "old fashioned" ones that you have to stir.  You might also want to check out almond butter.  It is a bit pricey but it does have less carbs.

 

I personally like Adams and Smuckers old fashioned brand.

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Kittyluvr400

I need a break. I get it...and then I don't. Will start googling questions and see if I can get a grip. I think the whole fruit thing confuses me. Yes, natures candy. I would expect fruit to be a healthy carb. Slice of white bread, not a healthy carb.

 

Going to do some reading later and try to get a grasp on this. You are all explaining it well and I appreciate the time spent with me...but I still feel lost. I'll check threads here that discuss this very issue and sooner or later I will get that AHA moment.

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OldTech

There is no such thing as good or bad carbs. To our body's biochemistry, they are all the same. The only difference is how fast they are digested. 

 

You also need to be aware that protein too can cause elevated blood sugar. Dr. Bernstien recommends that you count protein as 1/2 carbs and realize that digestion takes more time than most carbs.

 

Keep in mind that we, as type 2s, are carb intolerant. Would you recommend that an alcoholic drink? Well, the same applies to us for carbs. 

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Kit

OldTech nailed it.  No such thing as good or bad carbs, just carbs.

 

Actually I would use the comparison to allergies.

 

Most people would agree strawberries are good for you.

I had a friend growing up who had a serious allergy to strawberries.  As in face swelling, airways closing up, emergency room visit, etc.

 

Now imagine her doctor saying to her as she walks out the office door "and make sure you eat plenty of strawberries!"

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moneymeister

Hey Kitty,

 

If it helps to have company, I also have consistent dawn phenomenon. This morning I start my day with a lovely 137. If I wake up about 5am, I will catch it at about 110. As soon as I eat, my numbers stabilize and go down for the day. I hover between 88-115 all day (after the brief post meal bumps). I am on metformin only to control the morning rise. I'm working on my weight and hope that can help me get my numbers down.

 

Here is the interesting part:my darling (adult) daughter who is not diabetic also gets a bump in the morning. She is usually over 100 and usually 115 or so. Her last A1c was 5.1. Definitely not diabetic but also not normal.

 

My last A1c was 6.2, so in general, I am adequately controlled. I sometimes log my morning numbers on the forum, but tend to feel like I am failing because I don't achieve that magic 100 in the morning (the forum is great, I am hard on myself). I tried protein at bed, wine at night (yum), low carb and I still rock the higher (over 100) morning numbers. I am on weight watchers and hope as my weight comes down, so will my sugar in general.

 

My advice would be to try metformin (it does help a bit) and then decide how much effort you want to put into taming that morning bump. Is that bump worth the effort of insulin at night, or ultra low carb diet? a diabetes drug? maybe... everyone here has to decide where they are comfortable on the spectrum.

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Papa Diva

Hey Kitty,

 

If it helps to have company, I also have consistent dawn phenomenon. This morning I start my day with a lovely 137. If I wake up about 5am, I will catch it at about 110. As soon as I eat, my numbers stabilize and go down for the day. I hover between 88-115 all day (after the brief post meal bumps). I am on metformin only to control the morning rise. I'm working on my weight and hope that can help me get my numbers down.

 

Here is the interesting part:my darling (adult) daughter who is not diabetic also gets a bump in the morning. She is usually over 100 and usually 115 or so. Her last A1c was 5.1. Definitely not diabetic but also not normal.

 

My last A1c was 6.2, so in general, I am adequately controlled. I sometimes log my morning numbers on the forum, but tend to feel like I am failing because I don't achieve that magic 100 in the morning (the forum is great, I am hard on myself). I tried protein at bed, wine at night (yum), low carb and I still rock the higher (over 100) morning numbers. I am on weight watchers and hope as my weight comes down, so will my sugar in general.

 

My advice would be to try metformin (it does help a bit) and then decide how much effort you want to put into taming that morning bump. Is that bump worth the effort of insulin at night, or ultra low carb diet? a diabetes drug? maybe... everyone here has to decide where they are comfortable on the spectrum.

I have/had exactly the same problem for many years. It's a signaling issue. Bottom line was I started eating a small amount of carbs ~9 grams) in the morning and that would trigger insulin release and then I would go down and stay down all day. There's a lot more complexity to all of this for me, but the simple answer is wake up early enough to beat the DP rise and eat something to get the insulin flowing. Eating at night or the other things suggested did not work for me.

 

Also adding Berberine helped a lot more as well. It reduced the liver glucose dump and helped with lowering insulin resistance.

 

I have doing the morning carbs for years, and added Berberine in the past few months and it has made a huge difference in my morning FBG as well as DP.

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