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oblivious

Low carb rebuttal

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oblivious

This guy clearly has an agenda for veganism, but look past that and look at the data presented.

The studys and information presented sheds some light on what might happen on a low carb diet for diabetics.

At least for me it consisted of plenty meat and dairy. And maybe that does more harm than good?

See for your self and let me know what you think.

 

https://youtu.be/gIcSPwsNUyE

 

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jwags

I gave up all dairy and meat about 16 months ago. My BG control has been much better, even when I was given steroids with chemo and 2 surgeries.

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oblivious

I seem to be getting better control now that I have given up meat and dairy as well.. I eat more carbs, but it`s easier (more predictable) to control.
Still to early to say if it will stay this way since it has only been 3 weeks or so, with the occasional dairy product.

Seems plausible, at least for me.

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oblivious
On 8/9/2017 at 10:32 PM, Dave_KC said:

 

This study is published by the AHA, witch have a strong conflict of interest with the people making money of medicine for heart related problems.

This article explains it pretty good: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/martha-rosenberg/health-news_b_4398304.html

The study itself is based on "pooled multivariate analyses", which does not free you from any bias. So you can scew the data in your favor. I am not saying it happend in this study, I am just saying the possibility is there.


Before the two studies that gave the data to this study began, the people (166) with diabetes were excluded. 

If you look at statistics, roughly 10% of the U.S population has diabetes. By removing 5% of the study population with diabetes, you are left with 95% of the remaining study population which statistically won`t get diabetes. 

In other words, using trends in statistics, you can see from the get go that you will most likely find people with lower risk of getting diabetes.

 

In addition to this, the participants reported dairy consumption by them selves. This will give a greater margin of error in the results than a controlled study.

 

The study just concludes that there is a need to better understand the potential health effects of dairy fat.
It does not say that eating dairy will reduce the risk of getting diabetes, it just says that they found some people that probably won`t get diabetes in spite of eating dairy. And we already knew that.

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Coravh

I have had an ongoing debate with my Dad. He is a low-fat guy and it works for him. On the other hand, I've seen so many people who do LCHF and do very well. And then I found this article, that basically suggests that some people have a genetic disposition that causes being a vegetarian to work really well, and some people don't.

 

http://cornellsun.com/2016/04/26/healthiness-of-a-vegetarian-diet-may-depend-on-genetic-disposition/

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Dave_KC
1 hour ago, oblivious said:

 

This study is published by the AHA, witch have a strong conflict of interest with the people making money of medicine for heart related problems.

 

The American Heart Association (I assume that's who the AHA you're referring to is).  Honestly the AHA would have a fit over my diet and assume I'm going to die soon, as with the American Diabetic Association.  

 

And keep in mind, if your answer to the study sited is that they have funding from x (sounds conspiratorial), are there none out there who profit from veganism?  I think so, and big profit at that.  And HuffPo would be at least sympathetic to vegan types as well.  

Here's the thing, at the very least for me, I eat low carb, and relatively high fat.  My A1c at diagnosis was 12.6, and now, 9 months later, it's 4.7, following a 6 month number of 5.0, both of which are non-diabetic numbers.  On top of that, I no longer take any diabetic meds, and my numbers are still good so far.  

 

Look, everyone has an agenda, as does the ADA, and the AHA, but that doesn't mean they're wrong either.  It means they have an agenda, and their primary ones are to help prevent or help people maintain life with Diabetes or Heart disease.  And whether their wrong on not cannot be assumed just because of some corporate funding.  It has to be if it can be clearly shown that they're distorted their studies.  Just as actors pushing an idea have an agenda too, and there may not be anything solid behind it.  

 

OK, I'm done with my rant...  time to finish by eggs, bacon, sausage cheese, mushroom, onion and green bell pepper bowl for breakfast. 

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Dave_KC
2 hours ago, Coravh said:

I have had an ongoing debate with my Dad. He is a low-fat guy and it works for him. On the other hand, I've seen so many people who do LCHF and do very well. And then I found this article, that basically suggests that some people have a genetic disposition that causes being a vegetarian to work really well, and some people don't.

 

http://cornellsun.com/2016/04/26/healthiness-of-a-vegetarian-diet-may-depend-on-genetic-disposition/

Interesting article.  

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meyery2k
1 hour ago, Dave_KC said:

Interesting article.  

That was a very interesting read.  It makes a good deal of sense that we would adapt to best using the foods most available in our region.

 

I guess the saying, "One man's meat is another man's poison" could loosely apply here.

 

Thanks Coravh.

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Dave_KC
4 hours ago, TX_Clint said:

I don't know about the genetic disposition but I know for a fact I have a mental disposition that just won't accept going vegan. :)

 

That's probably being from Texas...  and since I'm in Kansas City, where we have BBQ battles with places Texas...  going vegan ain't happening!  I have the same mental disposition!  

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samuraiguy

This is another situation where you have to be your own guinea pig. Are you genetically predisposed to diabetes from excess fat and protein consumption? Who knows for sure unless you try a vegan diet and a LCHF one for six months to year and compare your results for each. 

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oblivious
22 hours ago, Dave_KC said:

Here's the thing, at the very least for me, I eat low carb, and relatively high fat.  My A1c at diagnosis was 12.6, and now, 9 months later, it's 4.7, following a 6 month number of 5.0, both of which are non-diabetic numbers.  On top of that, I no longer take any diabetic meds, and my numbers are still good so far.  

 

Look, everyone has an agenda, as does the ADA, and the AHA, but that doesn't mean they're wrong either..

 

I am glad you have found something that works for you, and I hope it will still do so for a very long time. We all have to find our thing.

Low carb didn`t work for me, so I am looking elsewhere.


And I get your argument that we can`t look at everyone as villains, because you are bound to find some conflict of interest in most cases.

But you can educate yourself about how that conflict of interest plays out and look at the details of studies, like I tried to do in my response to the study you shared.
If you don`t agree with the reasoning, that`s fine. I am still sceptical to studies funded by people who make money of big pharma, specially when those studies seem to have faults in them that will or might present a false truth. And specially when the big pharma funded studies conflict with other peer reviewed studies that might cause a dent in their cash flow.

 

 

23 hours ago, Coravh said:

I have had an ongoing debate with my Dad. He is a low-fat guy and it works for him. On the other hand, I've seen so many people who do LCHF and do very well. And then I found this article, that basically suggests that some people have a genetic disposition that causes being a vegetarian to work really well, and some people don't.

 

http://cornellsun.com/2016/04/26/healthiness-of-a-vegetarian-diet-may-depend-on-genetic-disposition/

 

I think it is an interesting idea (genetic based diets), but I had to stop reading after this paragraph.
 

"Fatty acids such as omega-3 and omega-6 are crucial to brain and immune system development and function. While red meats and seafood are full of these nutrients, plants are not. Veggies contain the necessary precursors for the production of fatty acids, but not the final product. Individuals with a vegetarian diet, then, can struggle to acquire a sufficient amount of the omega-6 and omega – 3 fatty acids."

 

I challange you to find any animal based foods with more omega-3 and omega-6 than flax seeds.

In one cup (168 grams) it has 38325mg omega-3 and 9931mg omega-6. To compare, salmon only has a fraction of that.

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/nut-and-seed-products/3163/2

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oblivious
On 9.8.2017 at 10:32 PM, Dave_KC said:

I'm always suspicious of anything produced by actors pretending to know something other than acting.  

 

I forgot to ask, why do you presume he is an actor?

I didn`t find any acting history on him when I did a google search..

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Dave_KC

Tom Hanks and Nick Jonas?  Yes. 

 

There are plenty of "doctors" all over the map on diet, and you'll find one that will agree with your pet dietary plan.  This is not new, and there's nothing new under the sun regarding medicine.  There are tons of answers.  

 

I can also find plenty of doctors who agree that low carb is best, and the vast majority go for at least moderately low carb (it's called the American Diabetic Association).  Now logically the majority agreeing on something doesn't make it right.  Nor does my personal experience make it right either.  But the fact that I've had my numbers come into line by doing the low carb diet.  And that can be shown through my test results.  

 

So, I guess time will tell, but I'm far from sold on vegan and high carb answers to diabetes.  

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jwags

I think it depends whether you are at risk of heart disease or not. I have heart disease on both sides of my family, plus I have cancer and diabetes. Going vegetarian/vegan was really not that hard and I can eat tons of health foods with good BG results. I always had some GI issues when I was on LCHF diet. I went pretty much vegan about 16 months ago and haven't had one GI problem since.

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Dave_KC

And yet regarding heart disease, many on low carb diets have seen their numbers on heart disease indicators improve.  I went from triglycerides at diagnosis at 165 to my latest check being 79.  I wasn't bad to begin with, but my numbers have gone crazy to the good, and both the ADA and the AHA would not agree with my diet, yet my numbers are great.  

 

I think it indicates that diet matters, but it isn't 100% clear what does what, and that one size doesn't fit all.  

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Dave_KC
4 hours ago, oblivious said:

But you can educate yourself about how that conflict of interest plays out and look at the details of studies, like I tried to do in my response to the study you shared.
If you don`t agree with the reasoning, that`s fine. I am still sceptical to studies funded by people who make money of big pharma, specially when those studies seem to have faults in them that will or might present a false truth. And specially when the big pharma funded studies conflict with other peer reviewed studies that might cause a dent in their cash flow.

 

And yet, "Big pharma" has provided us with wonderful things that make us live longer healthier lives, and they make a profit too.  The profit motive can cause some to do things which are highly unethical.  It can also drive to make very good products with very good benefits.  I don't think the profit motive alone can be seen as the source of all things evil.  

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oblivious
21 hours ago, Dave_KC said:

Tom Hanks and Nick Jonas?  Yes. 

 

Ah, I though you meant the guy that produced the video since you say you are sceptical to things produced by actors :)
Did you see the video? The actors here were merely examples.

Seems you have great success with going another way than what is presented, so I would like to know what you think about it and what may or may not conflict with what you have learned and experienced.

 

17 hours ago, Dave_KC said:

 

And yet, "Big pharma" has provided us with wonderful things that make us live longer healthier lives, and they make a profit too.  The profit motive can cause some to do things which are highly unethical.  It can also drive to make very good products with very good benefits.  I don't think the profit motive alone can be seen as the source of all things evil.  

 

This is true, we have both good and bad in this.

Wich is why we need to look at the details and try to better understand what is actually true.

And that applies to all sides, low-carb, high-carb, vegan or whatever.

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Dave_KC

I found the doctor behind it and read enough to be less than thrilled.  I will not spend my day spending hours watching questionable docs on Youtube.  

 

And again, while Low carb may not work for some, I've had tremendous results.  We can all find some practitioner at some level that promotes almost any idea out there.  

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oblivious
1 hour ago, Dave_KC said:

I found the doctor behind it and read enough to be less than thrilled.  I will not spend my day spending hours watching questionable docs on Youtube.  


Wich doctor are you refering to? The clip of Bernards Ted talk?

The guy presentind the information is a science writer, I do not believe he is a doctor.. but I might be mistaken.

He seems to be credible in my opinion. Everything I have checked that he has presented in videos I have been able to confirm from multiple sources.

If the whole message is accurate is another thing, but the details at least seem to check out.

 

I find the hunt for knowledge to be invigorating, whether it is from youtube, studies or other mediums.

Especially when it offers an opertunity for us to talk about the details of that knowledge and how it fits or doesn`t fit with other things we have learned.

Just the fact that you have great success with low-carbing and I don`t makes me even more curious to know more about it.

 

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Dave_KC

I researched the title, and found lots of links and summaries, but pro and con on the particular video.  

 

As a whole I support the search for knowledge, and spend plenty of times reading and researching various subjects as well (plus have a Master's degree in an unrelated field).  So I'm not afraid of education and learning, overall they're good things.  What I am concerned is that in these days (and I'm not necessarily accusing you or anyone else, just a societal commentary) at the lack of critical thinking.

 

These guys may be right, but they may be wrong.  I do know for sure where my numbers have gone by doing essentially the opposite of what they're suggesting. 

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Dave_KC

Since I'm sure I'll be quoted again, let me give a more measured response.  There is bias among all people, and Mic the Vegan certainly is that, but so are proponents of Low Carb/Keto and people like Dr. Atkins.  So are people who push Paleo, South Beach, Grape Fruit and every other diet that has ever existed.  Many promoting said diets have found, created, and sited studies supporting whatever view they want.  

 

I have been around long enough that I'm very skeptical of "studies."  So many studies are out there, and so many are deeply questioned.  In fact, you'll find most of the medical establishment disagree with both the vegan crowd and the Keto crowd.  

 

Thus, I will say again, I have deep skepticism of Mic the Vegan, and the studies he's sited.  Could those who disagree with him be biased by funding?  Sure it's possible.  Could people that push Veganism, such as Mic the Vegan be biased by money, or an agenda?  Obviously.  

 

Do I have the time to look into all of that?  No, I have to get exercise and walk the dog, raise my children and do other more mundane, domestic things...  like wash the dishes.  

 

Do I want to manage my diabetes to stick around as long as possible?  Yes.  Am I convinced that Vegan is the answer?  Not at all.  

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oblivious
14 hours ago, Dave_KC said:

OK, I watched it.  Mic the Vegan?  Now there's an unbiased source if there ever was one.  

 

I warned you about that :D

 

12 hours ago, Dave_KC said:

Do I want to manage my diabetes to stick around as long as possible?  Yes.  Am I convinced that Vegan is the answer?  Not at all.  

 

Thanks for taking the time to checking it out. I am glad I can get some more views on this subject.

 

I am all about animal welfare, preserving our ecosystems and my (and others) health.

And I agree with you that this diet option may not be for everyone.

 

I am not totally sold on the health aspect of this aproach my self, as you say we can definately see a lot of conflicting "evidence" from boths sides.

I do find it interesting though that Mic here among others, has arguments that disprove claims like a vegan diet not beeing able to give you all the nutrients the body needs.

Often people from the other side of the discussion say that you can`t get complete protein, enough omegas or all your vitamins and minerals from plant based foods.

Then Mic or others show that plant based foods can actually be better at suplying those nutrients than any animal based product can be.

For example flax beeing far superiour for omegas than any animal source and quinoa or hemp seeds plus several more having complete protein.

The only argument for eating animal products I have found to hold up, is that you can`t get B12 from plant based sources, wich is pretty easy to suplement and fortified in a lot of different plant based milks.

 

So I am only left with the one affliction we all here share in different forms, our diabetes.

It seems like for many here that either low carb or keto is the only way, wich would be very hard on a vegan diet I think.

But some get great benefit from vegan diets, like a couple of guys on youtube that had major problems on 100-150gr carbs a day on a omnivore diet, went vegan and now eat up to 500gr carbs a day while using much less insulin. This is purely anecdotal and I take it with a huge bucket of salt.

 

Still, there seems to be a shift going on on the dietary world of things. More and more people are going vegetarian or vegan with great success.

Are they doing something special that others don`t, that fail on vegan diets? Or maybe all diets should be customized to the individual.
Maybe we will end up with gene spesific diets. Who knows.

 

Still, thank you for your and everyone elses insights. It really helps to have some different weights on the scale.

 

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