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Larry H.

Seeing the results of poor maintenance of diet and exercise.

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Larry H.

I guess maybe I am a poster boy for what can happen when your able to reduce your pre diabetic numbers and loose weight though diet and exercise. When I first came here some years ago I met Princes Linda and many other nice people. I was able to bring my numbers down over a few months though reduced carbs and exercise. In fact they got so good I was lulled into thinking I had caught it in time and slowly didn't pass when things were offered to eat that I knew were possibly a problem. Fast forward for a number of years and a few weeks ago now I took a reading after a pretty simple dinner and the number came back at 190 with a fasting the next day of 134.  I quickly cut back but although I see the morning reading heading down closer to 100 I can't eat anything and am highly disturbed by that fact.  

 

For instance, a meal with less than 30 carbs ,  ends up in the 180 to 190 range.  I am not used to seeing that especially eating far less than I was able to. Its very frustrating for me and my elderly mom who lives next door and still manages to feed us.  She doesn't understand either at this point in her life why I can't eat low carb bread or something as simple as tomato soup.  Admittedly I probably brought this on my self but am having trouble figuring out how to correct it short of medicine which I already take far too much of.  The first time I was here those higher readings dropped a long way over a few months but so far it seems any carbs at all in the evening or lunch and I get scary numbers.   

 

I am looking for some ideas for a actual low carb diet plan, too many diabetes cook books are full of sugar and flour to work for me. 

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Kit

I have to leave for work, but Quick suggestion. Take a look at keto recipe sites. I personally average about 30g total carbs per day. That may be what you are looking for. 

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Orlando

Apart from carbohydrates you maybe be eating too much protein, its worth checking out. I have to be strict with both carbohydrates and proteins. I also shifted to two meals a day, takes a bit of getting used to but you soon learn to manage it. If you are not familiar with with the term "gluconeogenesis" then its worth learning a bit about it. Can be a problem re too much protein for both pre diabetics and T2  diabetics.

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meyery2k

When I was first diagnosed, I eventually changed my diet to where the only carbs I eat are from vegetables.  Exercise helps too.  If I slack off on the exercise, my morning fasting will rise to the 90's but if I exercise reasonably, it is usually in the 80's.

 

Ditto on the excess protein.  I have seen that first hand myself.

 

Logging you meals and testing might help you find something that will work.

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ran23

Should I count transplanting  and planting a small tree today exercise?   na, I'll walk anyway.    I used to do two meals a day, miss that now that my wife is retired.  Even walking around a small block is worthwhile. 

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Larry H.

Not sure what exactly it means.  My morning today was 105 which was good lately. But tonight I had only a 35 carb fifth of a piece of pizza.  It came in at 195, one of the highest I have seen, although before I cut back realizing the problem I most likely would have seen higher.  If the morning reading is lower than 125 is that still pre diabetes?  Or is this a switch to type two.  

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meyery2k

This link to the Mayo Clinic pretty clearly spells out the criteria.

 

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/type-2-diabetes/diagnosis-treatment/drc-20351199

 

When you get to the part about diet and maintaining an A1C of less than 7 stop reading!  Check out the posts here and you will find many successful outcomes.

 

Pizza can be problematic because the fat slows the absorption of carbs which keeps your glucose higher longer.

 

Many of us here eat 50g a day or less of carbohydrates.  We find we have to if we want to maintain readings like a non-diabetic.  That is the goal of many T2s here.  Sometimes medicine or insulin is needed.  Those are tools in the arsenal.  Even with medicine and insulin, a low carb diet helps you maintain your glucose and you use less medicine or insulin.

 

There is a camp that would argue that pre-diabetes is diabetes and should be handled the same way to prevent it from getting worse.

 

Honestly, I don't know.  I know what I can observe.  When I was eating the standard American/Western carb rich diet my fasting glucose was nearly 300 mg/dl and my A1C was 8.5.  When I adopted the low carb diet, I now test as a non-diabetic.  My A1C is less than 5 and my fasting is less than 100 every day unless I am ill or I make a poor meal choice.  I realize not everyone is as fortunate as I am but I gladly give up the pizza, spaghetti, bread, and rice to look and feel how I do today.

 

Not all carbs are created equal.  Vegetables have carbs but they are not the simple starches like you would find in bread, rice, potatoes, and dough.

 

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adiantum

Hi Larry, How good it was that you realised things are changing & am doing something about it.

How awful it couldve become if you wern't so aware.

 

Maybe it's time you took another A1c  to satisfy your curiosity  about being pre or type 2.

A1c test kits are available through walmart or online if going to a lab is inconvenient.

 

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Larry H.

My doctor whom I am seeing tomorrow had suggested and A1c in three months a few weeks ago. At that time I still thought things were pretty well under control but obviously they aren't.  I just checked the link meyery2K has up and sounds like two fasting numbers above 125 says type two.  I did have those recently several times but then its falled back to lower numbers.  The worst part is figuring what to eat and avoiding things I shouldn't have been eating in the first place.  My poor mom simply doesn't understand it all any more and she fixes most of the meals.  I will try to find some good suggested three meal a day plans and try to go from that. I think we eat considerably more fat than what you all are suggesting as well.  Its hard to believe that little bit of thin crust could result in 198 reading.  Makes it most frustrating since for so long I could get low readings on many things that now are simply a big problem.  My last A1c was around 6.2 I think. For a while it was 5.9 or something close.  However I would say this one is for sure going to be higher but I will try to keep it lower if possible, I am just not doing good at it for now.  

 

Another thing I noticed was that the diabetic group said that readings at random over 200 were also a sign of type 2. Mine always reverts to a lot lower than that as the morning today of 105.  

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Kit

I happen to be one of the people Mike mentioned.  The only real difference between prediabetes and full T2 diabetes is just a case of severity on how high your numbers are going.  Whether you are pre or full blown T2 doesn't really matter.  What does matter is how you approach things.

 

I would personally take the diet approach first.  Keep up on the before and after meal testing, find out what affects you badly and was affects you well.  Dump what doesn't work, keep what does work.  If, after this change, your numbers are still too high, then you might look at medication.

 

This is the method I used to work my way down to non diabetic numbers and how I manage to stay there.  It was that testing that made me realize that grains, most root vegetables, and most fruit just didn't play well with my body.  So I dropped them out of my diet and added in more low carb vegetables and fats.

 

Dinner tonight was a skillet scramble made with eggs, asparagus, onion, bell pepper, mushrooms, and a little swiss cheese melted on top.

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Larry H.

How does Almond Flour react if your seeing higher numbers. I used to make pancakes with it and use sugar free syrup which didn't move my number hardly at all. But now I guess I will just have to test to see?   I checked some of the keto recipes suggested. That would take some time to study.  Like so many low carb recipes often they are not quite what one would expect.  I am however going to try one that looked interesting for dinner tonight. If so I will be curious how high my number goes afterward.  I saw the doctor today he had planned on me getting an AC1 in a couple months but moved it up to 30 days from now so he can see what things are looking like.  Being a three month record it will include two months which I was not paying a lot of attention to my food intake.  

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Kit

Actually IMO its better to have your next A1C sooner than later.  Yes, its likely going to be higher, but it will give you a better picture of where you are restarting so you get a better view of the affects your changes are making.

 

I don't use a whole lot of almond flour.  Recipes tend to use a lot and it can be quite expensive.  I lean more towards coconut flour.  Its easier to find at about half the price.  You also use less then you would almond so it goes a lot further.  They both have different qualities though and coconut flour isn't always the best option depending on the recipe.

 

Nutritionally it has 10g carbs, 2g fiber for 1/4 cup (4 Tbsp) so I have to keep an eye on portion sizes when I do use it.

 

One thing that really helped me.  I stopped trying to recreate carby foods.  This means I rarely make low carb breads.  Don't try to recreate potatoes or similar either.  Its a mental game.  Once I got over my mental hurdle that starches were a vital part of every meal, I find I don't really desire it anymore and things are so much easier.

 

Now that said, I don't say you have to avoid these things.  But I recommend eating them because you have tried them and found you enjoy them for what they are, not because they are a replacement for bread or similar.

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Larry H.

I just had lunch and cut my 7 carb piece of bread in half, turkey and cheese on it.  A dozen or so chips with diet soda.  I just took my number and it was 185.  that seems incredible but evidently true.  Tonight I am planning on a wrap I saw on line with lettuce, bacon, eggs, and cheese.  That should tell what happens with absolutely no carbs I hope! 

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meyery2k

Ditto, what Kit said.  When I was trying to change, I made mashed cauliflower as a substitute for mashed potatoes which ended disastrously.  Not because the cauliflower wasn't good and not that I didn't like it.  I was expecting potatoes.  Kit was the very one that pointed out to me that, when I make mashed cauliflower, then that is what I am going to eat since I like it.  While looking back, it seems the most obvious advice, it unlocked this diet for me and I didn't look back.

 

Since this started on pizza.  While pizza crust is great, I have had great success just making the toppings and eating with cauliflower or zucchini.  The crust is just a way to deliver the topping from my plate to my mouth.  The joy of the pizza, to me, is the toppings.  The same goes with spaghetti and sauce.  The noodles are just a transport.  They really don't do anything as far as flavor.  I use spiral cut zucchini in place of noodles.

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meyery2k

A diet with absolutely no carbs would be dreary and not at all recommended.  The idea we are trying to promote is to eat carbs that are nutritious vs. just simple starches like you find in bread, rice, potatoes, pasta, fruit, and so on.  Non-root vegetable are filling, can be prepared so they taste good, and are low in carbohydrates so they have less glycemic effect than starches.  

 

Remember, not all carbs are created equal.  Starch is readily converted to glucose.

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Kit
24 minutes ago, Larry H. said:

I just had lunch and cut my 7 carb piece of bread in half, turkey and cheese on it.  A dozen or so chips with diet soda.  I just took my number and it was 185.  that seems incredible but evidently true.  Tonight I am planning on a wrap I saw on line with lettuce, bacon, eggs, and cheese.  That should tell what happens with absolutely no carbs I hope! 

 

Couple things.

 

1)  What were you before the meal?  That makes a difference in how we view the post number.

For example:  if you were 79, that would be really bad.  if you were 179, not so bad.

 

2)  The likely problem items would be the bread and chips.  So, the next step would be to try it again only skip the chips and bread and see how your numbers turn out (be generous with the lettuce for your wrap).  If that turns out better, you might consider putting maybe the piece of bread back and skipping the chips.  or keep the chips and skip the bread.

 

In this way you are testing the individual elements and getting a better feel for what does and does not work.

 

Personally my early experiments with bread we're pretty bad.  Even one slice (I chose the lowest carb I could find with whole wheat on the list) and I would still jump close to 80 points.

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Larry H.
44 minutes ago, meyery2k said:

A diet with absolutely no carbs would be dreary and not at all recommended.  The idea we are trying to promote is to eat carbs that are nutritious vs. just simple starches like you find in bread, rice, potatoes, pasta, fruit, and so on.  Non-root vegetable are filling, can be prepared so they taste good, and are low in carbohydrates so they have less glycemic effect than starches.  

 

Remember, not all carbs are created equal.  Starch is readily converted to glucose.

You know I used to think that as well and for years I could eat several slices of low carb bread, have my chips and a low sugar desert of some kind with no problem at all.  But I got lulled into thinking since I had lowered my numbers way down from what I was seeing when I started having issues that perhaps my body had adjusted back to somewhat normal. Now I see it didn't, at least it didn't because I ate way too many things I shouldn't have. I would love to be able to eat some carbs but with the kind of jumps I am now getting that seems rather difficult.  I wasn't able to take my before meal reading at noon today that ended at 185 but yesterday I had a 105 reading that jumped to 198 after dinner with very little carbs.  Today I had a fasting of 103 and breakfast came in at 135 with nothing to eat between them so I would say it went back quite a bit making the lunch jump pretty high. 

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Larry H.

Tonight I used a recipe on the Keto site for a lettuce, eggs, and bacon and cheese wrap.  At two hours I had 103.  Quite a difference from almost 200 the past nights.  I also decided to attend the local hospital diabetes meeting.  The lady in charge was baffled by my large increases in my number for relatively reasonable amounts of carbs.  When I told her about what I ate and the site she was concerned because she said if you don't get enough carbs your body is literally using up your own bodies carbs. And that she said wasn't good.  But what to do about the large raise in numbers if I ate carbs she was still baffled. 

 

I guess I am left wondering how to incorporate enough carbs without causing trouble. I had and still hoped that reduced carbs would eventually cause those high numbers to drop.  She thought the fact I am returning to near 100 in the morning was a good sign as they use that number to gain insite as to how your doing as well as an AC1 test.  

 

The evening "wrap" meal was actually a lot better than I expected it to be. Again she was concerned about eating too many eggs and cheese.  You just can't win it seems.  She made a riced cauliflower dish for us, I can't say that I really enjoyed it but the others thought it pretty decent.  

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Fraser

Unfortunately the lady in the hospital only know what she was taught .  We all have learned to understand what is good for us individually.

my diabetes education was based on eating to your meter.  If your meter does not like it you don’t eat eat.  I went from an A!C of 12.0 to 5.6 and I am not on meds.

So the Keto program it is fine in my opinion if it works for you.  Over the years I have learned to respond to my meter.  I tried Keto recently, but first I checked with a new ketone meter and I was already in nutritional ketosis with what I was doing. So I did not go any further. 

 

In in my humble opinion, you have a good sense of what your body is telling you it needs,  I would just follow your gut.

 

FYI. My BG two hours after dinner was 97.  My morning readings are similar. 

I generaly consume 30 or less carbs a day and I am active 73 year old

Edited by Fraser

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Kit

You know, I find that enough carbs thing amusing.  Its always said, but there is no medical research that proves any of it.

 

Warning here.  I have a family full of T2 diabetics.  All of them have suffered from complications in one form or another, including the death of my brother at the end of last year due to a series of diabetes complications.  So, I can be a bit anal on this subject.

 

There is no such thing as an essential carb.  There are essential fatty acids (fats).  There are essential amino acids (proteins), but I dare you to find research that shows that there is an essential carbohydrate.  Our body can make glucose all on its own quite well.

 

I have been at 30g carbs per day for over 4 years now and my brain isn't suffering.  I work a highly technical fast paced job and manage it all very well.  I am doing quite well for a woman in her mid 40s.  I managed to break my ankle last year (a series of stupid decisions on my part) and my pace of healing was significantly faster than the surgeon told me it would be.  My blood work has all been great, no complaints from me or them (as long as I don't tell them how I do it).

 

I was sent to a dietitian when I was first diagnosed.  While he gave me a better diet than what I hear many people receive, what he did give me kept my numbers floating up near 200 almost all of the time.  I mean seriously.  A diabetic is carb intolerant.  They expect us to eat the majority of our calories from carbs, and then either act all surprised when our numbers are bad/worse, or blame us that we are either non compliant or that we are lying to them.  Then there's the cycle of more and more medications.  And more medications means more carbs, cause god forbid you go low and have a reason to sue them.  And then come the complications.  And then you're blind, or on dialysis, or amputation, or similar (I mentioned my brother died less than 6 months ago and he had all of those and more and trust me, his medical professionals helped escort him all the way to death's door).

 

Note, I am not anti medication.  You'll notice in my signature that I take 500mg of Metformin twice a day.  I am, however, against needless medication.  I feel that it often causes more problems that it fixes.

 

After I broke my ankle I had to have surgery, which meant I spent about a day and a half in the hospital.  The nurse absolutely refused to test my BG after meals because "but you will be high".  I wanted to yell, not if you're doing it right!

 

I've said this a number of times before and I will say it again.  Your meter is your best friend.  Your meter will always be honest with you.  Your meter will let you know how your body is reacting to your entire lifestyle (food, exercise, etc).  You may hate it at times.  Swear at it (I have many times).  But it is always honest, and you have already seen the difference that can happen by removing simple starches from your diet.

 

Now I am not one to recommend a "no carb" diet.  By no carb I mean no plant material at all.  Volume wise, I eat way more vegetables than I do protein or fats.  But they are all low carb vegetables.  Actually they are the vegetables that everyone says we should eat but people rarely do.  I refuse to remove vegetables from my diet.  But I look at it intelligently, taking into account their carb counts and similar and how my body reacts.  I try to keep things as varied as possible and so far its been working very well not only for myself but for others here.

 

My recommendation.  Keep trying new things.  Keep testing your before and afters.  You will quickly sees what works well for you and what doesn't.  Check out our recipe section.  There's a lot of good stuff in there and good fodder for ideas of your own.

 

I had a really late day at work, so I hit Chipotle on my way home tonight.  I got a salad with barbacoa, fajita veggies, hot sauce, cheese, sour cream and no dressing (full of sugar that).  Skipped guac since I had avocado at lunch today.  I know from past experience and testing that I will react well (I intend to be asleep before I hit to 2 hour post mark), and I am well satisfied.

 

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Kit

Oh, and don't get too hung up on that morning reading.  In all honesty its almost useless.  Its the last spot to show a problem and its the last spot to come back to normal on your way down.

 

In other words, its not a good indication of how you are really doing here and now.  Its the pre and posts which are the most useful.

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Larry H.

Thanks it all makes sense to me. I still have my cereal and blue berries for breakfast which will give me nearly all the carbs I need for the day, although she didn't think it enough, or maybe the right kind?  I appreciate all your help. 

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meyery2k

Your results may vary but my own experience with a Low Carb High Fat diet...

 

Diabetes under control within 3 months.  Eventually, the doctor called it in remission.  I started on Metformin and was taken off it over 1 year ago.

Lost over 100 pounds

Went from sedentary to being able to run 10K, swim, and cycle long distance.

Lipids are excellent

Mentally and physically better than I have been in years.

Doctor only sees me once a year now in spite of diabetes.

 

I still eat to my meter as I find that is the best way to manage my diabetes.  Diet and exercise clearly have the greatest effect on me.

 

I would challenge you to try and stay away or greatly cut back on starches.  Just try and see what happens.  You can always go back.  I  was very skeptical at first but my meter told me this works.

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Larry H.

Decided to try a lettuce with cheese and turkey eliminating the low carb bread.  To have something to eat with it I got some flavored beans that came to 13 carbs a half cup when the fiber was taken off the 19 total.  To my dismay I still ended up with 155 at two hours.  It still appears any carb is one to many now!  

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meyery2k

Out of curiosity - Did you test before eating?  What was your reading then?

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